UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
SKD - then you will be able to tell the Dft when all that SAR expertise was last used winching to a windfarm, taking part in a multi-agency exercise, conducting multiple beacon homings (or even single for that matter) or even something really basic like night wet winching.
SAR expertise is more than just pitching up and cuffing it and, having done both sides of the fence, the crabs have the far more professional approach becauyse they actually do some training.
SAR expertise is more than just pitching up and cuffing it and, having done both sides of the fence, the crabs have the far more professional approach becauyse they actually do some training.
... able to tell the Dft ...
I do wonder what chance there is of being able to tell the DfT anything?
... actually do some training ...
Last edited by jimf671; 19th Jul 2013 at 16:21.
I was thinking more in terms of where are we going to get 20 more foot-soldiers from (per team) if nobody does enough training for rocky bits at night and the police and coastguard don't learn to do grid references.
Last edited by jimf671; 19th Jul 2013 at 16:50.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
can we move on, get a life and talk about other aspects of the project and forget about the wrong type of a/c being used
Which aspects of the project would you rather talk about? Night wet winching was suggested but you weren't biting. It's probably pointless talking about night wet winching anyway because it doesn't sound like there will be sufficient training hours for it. How can that be the way ahead?
Last edited by satsuma; 19th Jul 2013 at 20:00.
No of course the UK is the only country in the world that operates overwater, night IFR, SAR - just ask Crab. He is the one with who has extensive world-wide civilian SAR experience in the AW139
Apart from the fact I don't like the transition profile in light winds, it is more than capable at night now - it's just that what was accepted by the MCA and CHC a few years ago wasn't fit for purpose as the lighting was inadequate and the SAR modes for the autopilot hadn't been certified.
AFAIK the 189 is just a 139 with a plug in the fuselage to make it longer so it should breeze through certification and be at least as capable as the 139.
There have been decades of flying Sea Kings over heaving decks and in spindrift-filled gullies, producing a huge knowledge base across aircrew, controllers, engineering, management and SAR partners.
We have seen 5 years of SAR flying by the S-92 and we are approaching Year Zero for the AW189.
No matter who is doing the flying, a capability droop is inevitable.
What will minimise this effect?
We have seen 5 years of SAR flying by the S-92 and we are approaching Year Zero for the AW189.
No matter who is doing the flying, a capability droop is inevitable.
What will minimise this effect?
The Coastguard have statutory responsibility for SAR below the high water mark and the routine location reference system is latitude and longitude.
The Police have statutory responsibility for SAR above the high water mark and the routine location reference system is the postcode.
Now we hand responsibility for the UK SAR Helicopter Service to the DfT and brand it HM Coastguard. Between 50% and 70% of tasks will be land tasks. DfT spec: "... display of the Aircraft's geographic position shall be capable of being displayed in the following formats: latitude, longitude, British National Grid and Irish National Grid."
Postcode districts in rural areas are up to 90km across. Complete postcodes in mountainous areas or military training areas can refer to areas 10km across.
Many devices that can accept multiple types of reference system do not provide grid references in the format that is most widely known and understood.
There is something called ARCC that can make a lot of this go away. But it can still get interesting.
=============================================
I say again
" ... ... a capability droop is inevitable.
What will minimise this effect?"
The Police have statutory responsibility for SAR above the high water mark and the routine location reference system is the postcode.
Now we hand responsibility for the UK SAR Helicopter Service to the DfT and brand it HM Coastguard. Between 50% and 70% of tasks will be land tasks. DfT spec: "... display of the Aircraft's geographic position shall be capable of being displayed in the following formats: latitude, longitude, British National Grid and Irish National Grid."
Postcode districts in rural areas are up to 90km across. Complete postcodes in mountainous areas or military training areas can refer to areas 10km across.
Many devices that can accept multiple types of reference system do not provide grid references in the format that is most widely known and understood.
There is something called ARCC that can make a lot of this go away. But it can still get interesting.
=============================================
I say again
" ... ... a capability droop is inevitable.
What will minimise this effect?"
Last edited by jimf671; 20th Jul 2013 at 10:41.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: up north
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"the routine location reference system is latitude and longitude."
Bugger! why do we teach OS grids as one of the core skills for the guys and girls on the ground then !
"But it can still get interesting."
Yep they phone the for the OS grid for the HLS (see above)
Maybe its me but you do seem to have a MR are gods and CG are **** attitude !
As others have said this is the kit that's coming it may not be perfect but its pretty good in comparison to most country's and I would rather be F##ked up in this country knowing the collective capabilities of UK-SAR were coming to help me.
Bugger! why do we teach OS grids as one of the core skills for the guys and girls on the ground then !
"But it can still get interesting."
Yep they phone the for the OS grid for the HLS (see above)
Maybe its me but you do seem to have a MR are gods and CG are **** attitude !
As others have said this is the kit that's coming it may not be perfect but its pretty good in comparison to most country's and I would rather be F##ked up in this country knowing the collective capabilities of UK-SAR were coming to help me.
Maybe its me but you do seem to have a MR are gods and CG are **** attitude !
Look at it this way. If there was a major new aspect of maritime rescue, would you give it to the police/MR?
==================================
Looking at our neighbour to the NE, look at what is happening with NAWSARH to see how they do things in a joined-up way. Justice department working with Defence and Health. Then there are the JRCC where everyone is sitting in the same office. What can we do in the UK, with the hand we are being dealt, to get more joined-up thinking and joint working without degrading specialist skills?
Compromise the service
Jim, regarding your comments in post 677 then even if the RAF/RN kept the SAR contract but had new aircraft then surely we would be in the same position in having no experience on type (unless you used a Merlin) to fall back on and therefore a compromise in the service would again be inevitable?
Just how are we going to get around this problem in this commercial world upon where we live?
The Seaking has to go. A new type has to replace it. All the previous 25 or so years experience gained in operation will be history soon, or at least a large portion of it.
J
Just how are we going to get around this problem in this commercial world upon where we live?
The Seaking has to go. A new type has to replace it. All the previous 25 or so years experience gained in operation will be history soon, or at least a large portion of it.
J
Replacing the aircraft is inevitable but if the transition plan works there will be enough experience on type to avoid a drop in capability but ONLY if the right crews are operating the new aircraft.
If you replace a large proportion of the crab crews who do have the local knowledge and strength in depth from multiple SAR tours and replace them with 'done one tour and therefore SAR qualified' crews from the RN who only operate at 2 sites in UK - that's where you will find a drop in capability.
Don't expect anyone to like it but it's the truth.
If you replace a large proportion of the crab crews who do have the local knowledge and strength in depth from multiple SAR tours and replace them with 'done one tour and therefore SAR qualified' crews from the RN who only operate at 2 sites in UK - that's where you will find a drop in capability.
Don't expect anyone to like it but it's the truth.
That is certainly one of the potential problems. However, I am aware, and I hope others are, that each of the current providers has something to bring to the party. A wise operator would recruit appropriate diversity.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Back in the sandbox ... again!
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
La La ... what a complete load of guff!! Local knowledge??? its called navigation - so when Chivenor covers the Culdrose patch and vice versa does this mean there is a drop in capability - of course not - you are talking complete nonsense. SAR is all about captaincy - this is why the RN system relies on using experienced rotary drivers from other areas - they have the captaincy experience to make sensible decisions - in exactly the same way that the RAF SAR force utilises experienced pilots as their captains. You need to move away from the idea that SAR is a black art ... it is'nt. The correct training in a capable aircraft = no drop in capability. Crews (RAF, RN and Civilian) will move from the Sea King (and a plethora of other types) and bring their skills with them ... hence no drop in capability.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAR is all about captaincy
in exactly the same way that the RAF SAR force utilises experienced pilots as their captains
SAR is considered not to be a black art by those who haven't been exposed to much of it or haven't been doing it very well. Which one are you?
Last edited by Vie sans frontieres; 21st Jul 2013 at 22:11.