Helicopter - v - crane LONDON
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I've asked this in the other thread in R&N, but with two threads running I'll ask it here too..
Has the distance from the point of impact on the crane jib to the actual building been established yet?
Has the distance from the point of impact on the crane jib to the actual building been established yet?
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".......... an aviation expert said."
He's a PPL and aviation lawyer.
He is, beyond doubt, an expert in marketing.
H.
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TRC
Back on the R&N thread post 135# has a photograph taken from very close to the point of impact looking up at the tower. Post 178# has a map annotated with tower and impact site.
Not a "meters" measurement, but you will see that it is not far.
Back on the R&N thread post 135# has a photograph taken from very close to the point of impact looking up at the tower. Post 178# has a map annotated with tower and impact site.
Not a "meters" measurement, but you will see that it is not far.
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Not a "meters" measurement, but you will see that it is not far
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Here we go....
BBC London News (BBC1 right now) reporting on the crash and linking it to "other" dangerous incidents over London.
1. Rising calls for review of number of helicopter flights over London.
2. 12 serious incidents involving helicopters over the last 20 years. 2 involved engine failure and 1 was actually at Battersea! [This seems to be a trawl of AAIB records and pulling anything that relates to London area]
3. Residents worried about the increase in the number of helicopter flights [they actually fell in 2012!]. Chap interviewed lives next to Battersea Heliport [Which I suspect might have been there for quite a few years before he bought the flat]
4. Industry says Helicopters are strictly controlled, very safe, and there has been only 1 event that has led to fatalities.
BBC London News (BBC1 right now) reporting on the crash and linking it to "other" dangerous incidents over London.
1. Rising calls for review of number of helicopter flights over London.
2. 12 serious incidents involving helicopters over the last 20 years. 2 involved engine failure and 1 was actually at Battersea! [This seems to be a trawl of AAIB records and pulling anything that relates to London area]
3. Residents worried about the increase in the number of helicopter flights [they actually fell in 2012!]. Chap interviewed lives next to Battersea Heliport [Which I suspect might have been there for quite a few years before he bought the flat]
4. Industry says Helicopters are strictly controlled, very safe, and there has been only 1 event that has led to fatalities.
Last edited by John R81; 18th Jan 2013 at 17:50. Reason: To ensure my views in itallics to differentiate from the program
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A little light moment.
Four?! Luxury, wen ah were learnin, we 'ad to change manually, none of this girly, pre-set, flip flop stuff.
You tell that to the kids of today and they won't belive you!
You tell that to the kids of today and they won't belive you!
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TRC = define "almost". Helicopter hit the raised gib of the crane, when the gib is lowered to working position it stands above the roof.
Afterthought - anyway, you asked for the distance between hitting the crane and hitting the ground, which is what I gave you. The "not meters" meant I don't give you a distance in meters from the crane to the crash site on the ground. Please don't read my comment any other way.
Afterthought - anyway, you asked for the distance between hitting the crane and hitting the ground, which is what I gave you. The "not meters" meant I don't give you a distance in meters from the crane to the crash site on the ground. Please don't read my comment any other way.
Last edited by John R81; 18th Jan 2013 at 17:57.
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In pure risk assessment terms the helicopter should never have been there in the first place.
It was a miracle that only two people died.
Can I suggest that apart from public service helicopters all traffic must now be confined to the VFR route and only permitted VFR to the heliport.
A rich persons convenience is not worth the lives of people on the ground.
It was a miracle that only two people died.
Can I suggest that apart from public service helicopters all traffic must now be confined to the VFR route and only permitted VFR to the heliport.
A rich persons convenience is not worth the lives of people on the ground.
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you asked for the distance between hitting the crane and hitting the ground
TRC = define "almost"
BOAC, Redhill - Elstree
NB following is guesswork, I'm not an expert.
Fastest route likely to be H9, however if EGLL were in LVP's (don't know if they were), they may restrict and delay an aircraft routing EGLL overhead via H9 (perhaps HD could comment on effect of LVPS at EGLL on these routes), therefore the other option could be H7 H10 H9 to remain clear of EGLL, or H7 H4 with the intention to turn left at EGLC and follow the Lea Valley northbound (which is pretty clearly defined), then turn west abeam Elstree or track up to M25 and follow that linking via A1 or M1 to Elstree.
If taking the EGLC route 0820z metar indicates poor weather, prior to that metar an early turnback along H4 was made due to deteriorating weather ahead.
NB following is guesswork, I'm not an expert.
Fastest route likely to be H9, however if EGLL were in LVP's (don't know if they were), they may restrict and delay an aircraft routing EGLL overhead via H9 (perhaps HD could comment on effect of LVPS at EGLL on these routes), therefore the other option could be H7 H10 H9 to remain clear of EGLL, or H7 H4 with the intention to turn left at EGLC and follow the Lea Valley northbound (which is pretty clearly defined), then turn west abeam Elstree or track up to M25 and follow that linking via A1 or M1 to Elstree.
If taking the EGLC route 0820z metar indicates poor weather, prior to that metar an early turnback along H4 was made due to deteriorating weather ahead.
Avoid imitations
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included reference to post number
BOAC, you have made a number of false suppositions in post #200.
Under SVFR (class A airspace) or under VFR (class D) you are under radar control and are given a particular route to follow.
The minimum altitude is not normally given in this airspace, but a maximum one often is; this may be lower than the normal maximum allowed on that route (i.e. the ones on the Helilanes chart), due to other traffic above.
However, it remains the pilot's personal responsibility to comply with the minimum height rules. You will be able to recall what these are.
Under SVFR (class A airspace) or under VFR (class D) you are under radar control and are given a particular route to follow.
The minimum altitude is not normally given in this airspace, but a maximum one often is; this may be lower than the normal maximum allowed on that route (i.e. the ones on the Helilanes chart), due to other traffic above.
However, it remains the pilot's personal responsibility to comply with the minimum height rules. You will be able to recall what these are.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 18th Jan 2013 at 18:43.
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Can I suggest that apart from public service helicopters all traffic must now be confined to the VFR route and only permitted VFR to the heliport.
A rich persons convenience is not worth the lives of people on the ground.
A rich persons convenience is not worth the lives of people on the ground.
Last edited by heli14; 18th Jan 2013 at 18:51. Reason: alter SPVFR to SVFR
Avoid imitations
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Heli 14.
Correct!
Correct!
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Hence my "how does that help" question.
Then we can do away with all commercial Big Tin flights - after all, they do occasionally fall on people on the ground, and the convenience of someone rich enough to take a foreign holiday should not take precedence over the safety of those on the ground!
Whilst we are at it, just how many "innocent" people have been killed by motor cars? Ban them too!
And horses have killed quite a few! Off to Tesco, all of you!
Cricket balls are not entirely blameless either, so...
I'll get my coat
Then we can do away with all commercial Big Tin flights - after all, they do occasionally fall on people on the ground, and the convenience of someone rich enough to take a foreign holiday should not take precedence over the safety of those on the ground!
Whilst we are at it, just how many "innocent" people have been killed by motor cars? Ban them too!
And horses have killed quite a few! Off to Tesco, all of you!
Cricket balls are not entirely blameless either, so...
I'll get my coat
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Originally Posted by heli14
I thought that all helicopter traffic over London had to be VFR under the current rules (or SVFR) - remaining clear of cloud and in sight of the surface?