CAA UK prosecutions
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From: EGDC
Yes, I started on 670 but when the hollywood course arrived, myself and the US Army exchange officer found ourselves on a Lynx course to make way for true blue AAC flight commanders in front of the cameras.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
DB, it was definitely called the "double angle approach" during my basic rotary course (RAF) in 1979 and it continued to be so during my time instructing on the Gazelle in the mid 1980s. I'm fairly sure the term was still in common use in the mid 1990s, too.
So, you must have been asleep....
So, you must have been asleep....
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: UK and MALTA
SHYTORQUE - I think you must be correct - I must have asleep!!
CRAB - (Ignoring rules or regs because someone might die) - guess what - THERE IS A RULE FOR THAT - See JAR-OPS
1.1.1 Deviation from procedures in Emergencies
JAR-OPS 3.085(g)
The pilot-in-command shall, in an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action, take any action he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate from rules, operational procedures, and methods in the interest of safety.
Sorry CRAB - you do not have to be a drama queen by ignoring rules to save lives - YOU JUST HAVE TO KNOW THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
3,500 HEMs missions in an unstabilised machine including Night into the hills. Been there, done that. And I still followed all the rules!!
Try again!!
CRAB - (Ignoring rules or regs because someone might die) - guess what - THERE IS A RULE FOR THAT - See JAR-OPS
1.1.1 Deviation from procedures in Emergencies
JAR-OPS 3.085(g)
The pilot-in-command shall, in an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action, take any action he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such cases he may deviate from rules, operational procedures, and methods in the interest of safety.
Sorry CRAB - you do not have to be a drama queen by ignoring rules to save lives - YOU JUST HAVE TO KNOW THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
3,500 HEMs missions in an unstabilised machine including Night into the hills. Been there, done that. And I still followed all the rules!!
Try again!!
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 9th November 2012 at 16:17.
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: UK and MALTA
CRABSPEAK - "myself and the US Army exchange officer found ourselves on a Lynx course to make way for true blue AAC flight commanders in front of the cameras"
Maybe the true blue AAC followed the rules!!!!
Maybe the true blue AAC followed the rules!!!!
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: UKdom
At least we have determined that even if the avoid curve is in the limitation section there are still means and ways of safely flying within it - despite DB originally saying we couldn't - especially with passengers on board.
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DB
Just curious if the rules are in your eyes correct then why do differing countries have differing rules ? EG use of singles in the USA for police forces in built up areas where as in Europe it has to be a twin. So please tell me which rule is correct ?
What is says to me, is that a lot of the rules are a load of bullocks and have nothing to do with safety, if they did they would be universal.
Just curious if the rules are in your eyes correct then why do differing countries have differing rules ? EG use of singles in the USA for police forces in built up areas where as in Europe it has to be a twin. So please tell me which rule is correct ?
What is says to me, is that a lot of the rules are a load of bullocks and have nothing to do with safety, if they did they would be universal.
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Cornwall
Hughes500
No it doesn't. It means that where the dollar is king it shouts louder than the passengers who fly in them.
Where else could you find a cockamamie system (Part 135) that allows CAT on the basis of what the guy who pays for the flight says is good enough.
OK - Part 91 - if you fly your own employees the rules are close to zero
Part 135 - You are my employee and I send you to work in the cheapest piece of s**t I can find but you have NO come back.
Part 121 - airline standard
Under JAROPS 3 standards as low as 135 would not be tolerated.
The point is that if you were sending your wife and kids and grandkids to fly at night across the city or across the water would you prefer they went in the single or the twin?
G.
Where else could you find a cockamamie system (Part 135) that allows CAT on the basis of what the guy who pays for the flight says is good enough.
OK - Part 91 - if you fly your own employees the rules are close to zero
Part 135 - You are my employee and I send you to work in the cheapest piece of s**t I can find but you have NO come back.
Part 121 - airline standard
Under JAROPS 3 standards as low as 135 would not be tolerated.
The point is that if you were sending your wife and kids and grandkids to fly at night across the city or across the water would you prefer they went in the single or the twin?
G.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
DB - you are so impressed with yourself you ought to write yourself up for a medal An unstabilised machine - gosh you are very brave - 3,499 day VMC missions.........
1 night HEMS into the hills....oooohhhh - do please tell the story.
Crikey, I didn't know you could ignore all the rules to save lives Is that how a SAR AOC works? I don't think so!
And you haven't answered the question about driving at the speed limits or is that just an inconvenience that might mar your Peter Perfect image?
An unstabilised machine - gosh you are very brave - 3,499 day VMC missions.........1 night HEMS into the hills....oooohhhh - do please tell the story.
Crikey, I didn't know you could ignore all the rules to save lives
Is that how a SAR AOC works? I don't think so!And you haven't answered the question about driving at the speed limits or is that just an inconvenience that might mar your Peter Perfect image?
Joined: Aug 2000
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Well having had wife and kids at night over Dartmoor in a 500 obviously the answer would be yes, but I was flying. Realistically about 90 % of all accidents are pilot error, less than 1 % are engine failure so what does that tell us ?
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: UK and MALTA
CRAB - I see at last you show your true colours. When all else fails you resort to personal abuse. And why?? - because you cannot make me agree that rules are only for the less able than you who, by your own postings, seem to advocate that they do not/should not apply to you.
The first thing you learn in HEMs is the paradox of taking extreme risk (albiet afforded in the operating rules) only to find out that the victim has croaked, or has a minor injury. Slowly, over time, you learn to be much more discerning with how you choose to spend your own allocation of "Nine Lives". I am sure this is a concept common to most long term HEMs pilots. CRAB - by your approach to this thread I get the impression this penny has not really dropped with you!!
GEOFFERS - the voice of reason.
MISTERBONKERS - The H/V curve in a Limitations section - IS A LIMIT.
If it appears in the PERF section - IT IS A TOOL.
If the operating rules (Like PC3) require you to have a Safe Forced Landing Option at all/or some of the time, you use the PERF H/V Chart to help you retain this capability.
You cannot simplify any of this into a YOU CAN and YOU CAN'T statement and I apolgise if I gave you that impression. It depends on the location of the Chart in the AFM, the operating rules you are subject to and finally - AND PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT what risks you are prepared to take. Like H500 says, he accepts some risk to his family when he is actually flying and he is talking about private night flights I suspect rather than CAT. Fair enough. He says his H500 has the H/V chart in the Perf section and not the limitations section.
Maybe H500 can put some meat on the bones here and give us his feeling about operating inside the avoid curve with his wife/kids on a private flight. Does he feel comfortable doing this or does he try to avoid this situation??
MISTERBONKERS - I am not sure we have established we can operate in the H/V avoid "Safely". I think we have established it can be done within the rules some of the time. It is safe as long as the donkey keeps on working. If it stops - you may then be unsafe, but even this is about "degrees" of safety. This is the really diffcult part of rule-making...where to draw the line. For pilots who are compelled by the needs of the task to operate beyond the line afforded by the rules, their airmanship becomes the last defence against either disaster, or just an undesirable event. This is a very difficult area and has been subject to much debate. Under JAR I feel we have a reasonable compromise that leaves much of this difficult decision making in the hands of the pilot provided he remains firmly within the guidelines and rules in play. It is for this reason that I give CRAB such a hard time for suggesting that the rule do not allow him to do SAR/HEMS to his liking. It is all there in the rules. They should be followed otherwise we do not accrue viable data to effect real change toward improvement and the alternative is aviation anarchy.
DB
The first thing you learn in HEMs is the paradox of taking extreme risk (albiet afforded in the operating rules) only to find out that the victim has croaked, or has a minor injury. Slowly, over time, you learn to be much more discerning with how you choose to spend your own allocation of "Nine Lives". I am sure this is a concept common to most long term HEMs pilots. CRAB - by your approach to this thread I get the impression this penny has not really dropped with you!!
GEOFFERS - the voice of reason.
MISTERBONKERS - The H/V curve in a Limitations section - IS A LIMIT.
If it appears in the PERF section - IT IS A TOOL.
If the operating rules (Like PC3) require you to have a Safe Forced Landing Option at all/or some of the time, you use the PERF H/V Chart to help you retain this capability.
You cannot simplify any of this into a YOU CAN and YOU CAN'T statement and I apolgise if I gave you that impression. It depends on the location of the Chart in the AFM, the operating rules you are subject to and finally - AND PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT what risks you are prepared to take. Like H500 says, he accepts some risk to his family when he is actually flying and he is talking about private night flights I suspect rather than CAT. Fair enough. He says his H500 has the H/V chart in the Perf section and not the limitations section.
Maybe H500 can put some meat on the bones here and give us his feeling about operating inside the avoid curve with his wife/kids on a private flight. Does he feel comfortable doing this or does he try to avoid this situation??
MISTERBONKERS - I am not sure we have established we can operate in the H/V avoid "Safely". I think we have established it can be done within the rules some of the time. It is safe as long as the donkey keeps on working. If it stops - you may then be unsafe, but even this is about "degrees" of safety. This is the really diffcult part of rule-making...where to draw the line. For pilots who are compelled by the needs of the task to operate beyond the line afforded by the rules, their airmanship becomes the last defence against either disaster, or just an undesirable event. This is a very difficult area and has been subject to much debate. Under JAR I feel we have a reasonable compromise that leaves much of this difficult decision making in the hands of the pilot provided he remains firmly within the guidelines and rules in play. It is for this reason that I give CRAB such a hard time for suggesting that the rule do not allow him to do SAR/HEMS to his liking. It is all there in the rules. They should be followed otherwise we do not accrue viable data to effect real change toward improvement and the alternative is aviation anarchy.
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 11th November 2012 at 09:21.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: yorkshire uk
DB....it's the rude , arrogant one here You wrote ........
In respect of the ash-cloud crisis. I flew every offshore mission allocated to me IAW the Company guidelines and the MET information avaible. Did you???
Well actually I think you sat on your bottom for a week or more waiting for an expert to hold your hand (sadly there are no experts in this field ...but interestingly the locals around many volcanoes worldwide fly around the ash regularly quite happily). I, on the other hand along with most people I know, flew all week in clear air ... Having used that thing called common sense !!!
As for you not having a problem with any rules ...I just don't believe you. Would you not be pissed off if you had a charter that couldn't happen because there was a 4ft fence 100 yards away?? Then to find that I did it perfectly legally privately
. Do you think it makes sense to have to do training on a real vor (which almost no se Helis have) and not allowed to use the vor on a moving map ??
As for the avoid curve I personally think far more accidents have been caused by low time pilots barreling in too fast to a confined area (trying to keep 30 kn to stay outside this killer zone ...) and coming to grief. I am far happier getting firmly into the curve and do a power check and controlled, slow descent ....funnily enough taught to me by ....a military pilot.
Ps. What's the answer about breaking speed limits ...??????
You wrote ........In respect of the ash-cloud crisis. I flew every offshore mission allocated to me IAW the Company guidelines and the MET information avaible. Did you???
Well actually I think you sat on your bottom for a week or more waiting for an expert to hold your hand (sadly there are no experts in this field ...but interestingly the locals around many volcanoes worldwide fly around the ash regularly quite happily). I, on the other hand along with most people I know, flew all week in clear air ... Having used that thing called common sense !!!
As for you not having a problem with any rules ...I just don't believe you. Would you not be pissed off if you had a charter that couldn't happen because there was a 4ft fence 100 yards away?? Then to find that I did it perfectly legally privately
. Do you think it makes sense to have to do training on a real vor (which almost no se Helis have) and not allowed to use the vor on a moving map ?? As for the avoid curve I personally think far more accidents have been caused by low time pilots barreling in too fast to a confined area (trying to keep 30 kn to stay outside this killer zone ...) and coming to grief. I am far happier getting firmly into the curve and do a power check and controlled, slow descent ....funnily enough taught to me by ....a military pilot.
Ps. What's the answer about breaking speed limits ...??????
Joined: Aug 2000
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DB
Where did I say I was operating inside the avoid curve by flying my machine over Dartmoor at night with my wife and kids ???? I really think you need to pay more attention to not only your reading but what you actually say as you are making your self look a bit of a prat which I am sure you are not.
Every helicopter pilot in their life as entered the avoid curve at some point, if they havent they havent been taught properly. There is nothing wrong with entering the avoid curve, it is a risk assessment as I said 90% plus of all accidents are pilot error. To my mind there is almost no difference in being in a fully loaded 355F1 on a helipad takeoff to a 500 doing the same thing, if the engine fails both are going to hit the ground pretty hard.
You obviously feel very sercure in your twin ( ever see the film of South Wales Police helicopter splatting in with a tail rotor failure, possibly in a single's avoid curve but the extra engine did diddly squat for them ), please tell me in your 17000 hours how many engine failures have you had ? I may not have the 17000 hours of experience you have ( sorry only have 6000) I have had 3 rough running piston engines, ironically it is the rules that caused each one !!!!
The current aviation rules make it dam nigh impossible for engine manufactures to put an automotive engine into aviation. You wouldnnt even make Ford's front door if you took them a llycoming piston engine that weighs 500lbs produces 190hp uses 1 litre of oil every 4 hours ( new engine) and if reved at over 3200 rpm wants to destroy itself . Ford's engine failure rate is currently 1 in 10 million, they are that confident that only 1 in 10 engines in a new car is tested before it leaves the factory. So much for the rules making everything safe!
I am not suggesting that one breaks the rules but as most things in Western life now things are getting out of hand.
Not sure I am going to bother with this thread as we sit on different sides of the fence.
Where did I say I was operating inside the avoid curve by flying my machine over Dartmoor at night with my wife and kids ???? I really think you need to pay more attention to not only your reading but what you actually say as you are making your self look a bit of a prat which I am sure you are not.
Every helicopter pilot in their life as entered the avoid curve at some point, if they havent they havent been taught properly. There is nothing wrong with entering the avoid curve, it is a risk assessment as I said 90% plus of all accidents are pilot error. To my mind there is almost no difference in being in a fully loaded 355F1 on a helipad takeoff to a 500 doing the same thing, if the engine fails both are going to hit the ground pretty hard.
You obviously feel very sercure in your twin ( ever see the film of South Wales Police helicopter splatting in with a tail rotor failure, possibly in a single's avoid curve but the extra engine did diddly squat for them ), please tell me in your 17000 hours how many engine failures have you had ? I may not have the 17000 hours of experience you have ( sorry only have 6000) I have had 3 rough running piston engines, ironically it is the rules that caused each one !!!!
The current aviation rules make it dam nigh impossible for engine manufactures to put an automotive engine into aviation. You wouldnnt even make Ford's front door if you took them a llycoming piston engine that weighs 500lbs produces 190hp uses 1 litre of oil every 4 hours ( new engine) and if reved at over 3200 rpm wants to destroy itself . Ford's engine failure rate is currently 1 in 10 million, they are that confident that only 1 in 10 engines in a new car is tested before it leaves the factory. So much for the rules making everything safe!
I am not suggesting that one breaks the rules but as most things in Western life now things are getting out of hand.
Not sure I am going to bother with this thread as we sit on different sides of the fence.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: EGDC
DB
I think the personalisation of this topic started in your post.
It was unnecessary because I wasn't (if you actually read my post) saying offshore was easy - I was pointing out that for the most part it is straightforward to apply fairly stringent ( and rightly so given it is passenger transport) regulations to offshore ops.
At this point you decided to start the black-catting with numbers of hours and difficulty of tasks.
Now you decide that I believe I can't do HEMS/SAR keeping within the rules without having a clue what I do or how I do it.
You now seem to feel sufficiently pious to lecture to all and sundry on this thread about how superior your judgement is because you follow every rule and regulation to the letter.
Still no answer about speed limits though
Just as you think what we do is easy we laugh at the suggestion that trundling over the land trying to avoid the "Avoid" curve seems somewhat vexing for you!!
It was unnecessary because I wasn't (if you actually read my post) saying offshore was easy - I was pointing out that for the most part it is straightforward to apply fairly stringent ( and rightly so given it is passenger transport) regulations to offshore ops.
At this point you decided to start the black-catting with numbers of hours and difficulty of tasks.
Now you decide that I believe I can't do HEMS/SAR keeping within the rules without having a clue what I do or how I do it.
You now seem to feel sufficiently pious to lecture to all and sundry on this thread about how superior your judgement is because you follow every rule and regulation to the letter.
Still no answer about speed limits though
Joined: Jan 2012
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
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From: UK
post #15 is a hint at why rules are not a bad thing IMO.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/500...xperience.html
Might I add given the vast experience you have its a pity there isn't a greater mutual respect for each other. You know it is cool to have a different view and not kick off.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/500...xperience.html
Might I add given the vast experience you have its a pity there isn't a greater mutual respect for each other. You know it is cool to have a different view and not kick off.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,303
Likes: 23
From: UK and MALTA
H500 - I apologise if I gave you the impression that you operated in the H/V avoid with your family. I was referring to the Night SE Over Dartmoor (I think that is what you said you had done).
There is a world of difference between VTOL in a H500 and an AS355F1 (Provided the AS355F1 is at the Group A Helipad Mass for Altitude and Temperature). If you do know why then I can explain!!
Not sure why you now rant about piston engines. I thought a H500 had a turbine in it but heh-ho. I could be wrong.
MISTER BONKERS - Mynamar - Proof that we are sometimes "Exposed".
NIGEL - During the ASH Cloud crisis I followed the limitations imposed upon all NS Helicopter crews. To do otherwise would have certainly resulted in my dismissal and quite rightly so. I respect your right to self determination as (I presume) you are one man band!! On the NS (not sure if you have had the pleasure) we have to follow the rules that our Company impose upon us.
Please stop blaming me for the ASH Cloud. For your information - a big volcano in Iceland did it and then ran away!!!
CRAB & NIGEL - Speeding!!! Surely you do not expect me to admit to breaking the law????
CRAB - I have always had respect for your posts with the exception of this thread where you seem determined to convince yourself and me that the rules are rubbish. I am intrigued. What message are you trying to convey!!
As for my aviation experience.... I offered some insight as it was intimated by H500 and CRAB that I was some sort of "amatuer" whoose views and opinions should be dismissed accordingly. Shame on you both that when enlightened you choose to take the mickey out of that as well. Quite frankly the technical inaccuracies of the stuff you both post, allayed with the determination to abuse anyone who seems intent on following the rules, should automatically exclude you from an environment where you have influence over other aviators.
Passengers (customers) deserve the very highest level of safety we can provide them with. That means we are first and foremost compliant with the operating rules we are compelled (and in CAT legally oblidged) to follow. If you cannot accept this please never fly me or my family!!!
DB
There is a world of difference between VTOL in a H500 and an AS355F1 (Provided the AS355F1 is at the Group A Helipad Mass for Altitude and Temperature). If you do know why then I can explain!!
Not sure why you now rant about piston engines. I thought a H500 had a turbine in it but heh-ho. I could be wrong.
MISTER BONKERS - Mynamar - Proof that we are sometimes "Exposed".
NIGEL - During the ASH Cloud crisis I followed the limitations imposed upon all NS Helicopter crews. To do otherwise would have certainly resulted in my dismissal and quite rightly so. I respect your right to self determination as (I presume) you are one man band!! On the NS (not sure if you have had the pleasure) we have to follow the rules that our Company impose upon us.
Please stop blaming me for the ASH Cloud. For your information - a big volcano in Iceland did it and then ran away!!!
CRAB & NIGEL - Speeding!!! Surely you do not expect me to admit to breaking the law????
CRAB - I have always had respect for your posts with the exception of this thread where you seem determined to convince yourself and me that the rules are rubbish. I am intrigued. What message are you trying to convey!!
As for my aviation experience.... I offered some insight as it was intimated by H500 and CRAB that I was some sort of "amatuer" whoose views and opinions should be dismissed accordingly. Shame on you both that when enlightened you choose to take the mickey out of that as well. Quite frankly the technical inaccuracies of the stuff you both post, allayed with the determination to abuse anyone who seems intent on following the rules, should automatically exclude you from an environment where you have influence over other aviators.
Passengers (customers) deserve the very highest level of safety we can provide them with. That means we are first and foremost compliant with the operating rules we are compelled (and in CAT legally oblidged) to follow. If you cannot accept this please never fly me or my family!!!
DB
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,111
Likes: 118
DB
Hughes 500 is a turbine but as i own 2 of them and 2 300's for training was pointing out that the rules prevent a safer helicopter ie the 60 year old piston engine we have to put up with in the training environment.
Thank you with the 355 I am a TRE so do know that a fully loaded one, if one of the engine goes the other is taking you to the scene of the crash unless you get past 30 kts from a helipad takeoff.
Hughes 500 is a turbine but as i own 2 of them and 2 300's for training was pointing out that the rules prevent a safer helicopter ie the 60 year old piston engine we have to put up with in the training environment.
Thank you with the 355 I am a TRE so do know that a fully loaded one, if one of the engine goes the other is taking you to the scene of the crash unless you get past 30 kts from a helipad takeoff.