CAA UK prosecutions
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Ross-on-Wye
Press power?
Nigel .... How would you see an open article published, albeit 100% totally factual, covering the current CAA/AOC situation that you routinely outline. I'd need the Editor's and your consent to be quoted, plus a few others on here who share your situation and opinion. I'd also ask the CAA to comment before publication.
If its a 'Yes' ... I'd need you to cite as many inconsistencies as you could provide. (I have a few of my own) My idea might go to worms, but its an item I'd like to cover for a prominent aviation magazine.
You probably know I ran an AOC operation for 25 years but somewhat happily, I'm now semi retired. Regards to all. Dennis K.
If its a 'Yes' ... I'd need you to cite as many inconsistencies as you could provide. (I have a few of my own) My idea might go to worms, but its an item I'd like to cover for a prominent aviation magazine.
You probably know I ran an AOC operation for 25 years but somewhat happily, I'm now semi retired. Regards to all. Dennis K.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: yorkshire uk
Of course we all know there is no difference . One transaction has to price in all the overheads associated with holding an AOC and the other doesn't . I don't see either being in any way safer than the other . As a paying passenger I would always vote to save 15 -20% and go non AOC . I would not however advocate anyone taking an illegal charter . I am quite happy being a non AOC company and have been for over 25 years but I would equally be very happy to be within a workable system . Anyone tells me I cannot take off from a garden due to a fence 20m or 200m away then forget it 
It is too sensible and reasonable to ever happen especially when our industry is represented by wimps who wring their hands and curse the CAA one minute and cosy up the next . This would all have been put right and the CAA put back in their box years ago if all the operators refused to play their game !!!
It is too sensible and reasonable to ever happen especially when our industry is represented by wimps who wring their hands and curse the CAA one minute and cosy up the next . This would all have been put right and the CAA put back in their box years ago if all the operators refused to play their game !!!
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: yorkshire uk
Hi Dennis .... Yes I would be very happy . I think I would be putting my head above the parapet .......... But so what !!!!!
Give me a call sometime and in the meantime I will make some notes .
I wouldn't hold out any hope . The CAA is a jobs for the boys club with , to my mind , no interest in safety ( other than the less flying done the safer it is .... Which I guess is quite logical !!).
After exposing the scandal of their AOC rules and charges you can then look at training/licensing / ratings etc which are equally illogical . ( out of interest how many of you have vor in your single ? How many use it ? ) .
Give me a call sometime and in the meantime I will make some notes .
I wouldn't hold out any hope . The CAA is a jobs for the boys club with , to my mind , no interest in safety ( other than the less flying done the safer it is .... Which I guess is quite logical !!).
After exposing the scandal of their AOC rules and charges you can then look at training/licensing / ratings etc which are equally illogical . ( out of interest how many of you have vor in your single ? How many use it ? ) .
Joined: Aug 2000
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helihub
You are in the grey area of the law here. it is not illegal to rent a helicopter nor is it illegal to hire a commerical pilot. The CAA would go after the pilot as they would say he is the operator in the aoc sense, although they have never made it stick in a court of law or so iam told.
An operator who did both without an aoc would strictly be breaking the law.
You are in the grey area of the law here. it is not illegal to rent a helicopter nor is it illegal to hire a commerical pilot. The CAA would go after the pilot as they would say he is the operator in the aoc sense, although they have never made it stick in a court of law or so iam told.
An operator who did both without an aoc would strictly be breaking the law.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 191
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From: S England
The CAA is a jobs for the boys club with , to my mind , no interest in safety ( other than the less flying done the safer it is .... Which I guess is quite logical !!). ..... nigel
I go along with that one. The Flight Ops Inspectors in the 90's were only interested in what appeared to be the "correct" paperwork and regulations, not safety. It all seemed to have fallen apart after Don Sissons retired.
I go along with that one. The Flight Ops Inspectors in the 90's were only interested in what appeared to be the "correct" paperwork and regulations, not safety. It all seemed to have fallen apart after Don Sissons retired.
Joined: Jan 2012
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From: UK
playing devils advocate do you think all of this is fine until it isn't and then those caught up in any accident would naturally want some kind of evidence what checks and balances have been done.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: yorkshire uk
Tim , that is the real problem here ....people are NOT prepared to stick their neck out and NOT prepared to act . I have little sympathy for the dozens or hundreds of pilots who will , i guarantee, lose their jobs over the next few years due to the spiralling cost of charter . I also have little sympathy for all the small operators who cant make a profit . They are all paying the price for their apathy and the fact they didnt have the balls to man up to a bunch of suits . There must be hundreds who have read this and how many have spoken up ??
Therefore Dennis count me out ....it doesnt actually bother me what the CAA do re AOC,s as it has absolutely no effect on me . For all i care they can insist on bright yellow flying suits and airport only landings
Its just really sad that heli pilots are such whimps !!!
( Thats Pussies for you from the US ...!! )
Therefore Dennis count me out ....it doesnt actually bother me what the CAA do re AOC,s as it has absolutely no effect on me . For all i care they can insist on bright yellow flying suits and airport only landings
Its just really sad that heli pilots are such whimps !!!( Thats Pussies for you from the US ...!! )
Last edited by nigelh; 5th September 2012 at 19:47.
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Ross-on-Wye
AOCs
Okay Nigel ... I certainly understand and appreciate the position and attitude you take, but you shouldn't take it out on your aviation brethren. We all have oodles of daft legislation to contend with that makes little sense and to answer you note reference VORs in singles ... I take the view that the latest requirement is not only illogical but in some circumstances, outright dangerous. I certainly don't want my student pilots head down on the instrument panel in poor weather trying to identify a VOR signal that is unlikely to be received at 500 feet ... especially since there is no requirement in the PPL syllabus to read morse. The old chestnut of the Irishman & the bog comes to mind! I wouldn't want to start from that position. DRK
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: yorkshire uk
Dennis ....i take your point about not being mean to my poor aviation brethren .....but all these absurd rules you talk about are there for a very good reason . NOBODY STOPPED THEM 
Things will only get worse until it stops working all together ( hopefully sooner rather than later ) and then we may be able to sack the lot of them and put real people in charge who understand aviation . And who care more about safety then arse covering .
Things will only get worse until it stops working all together ( hopefully sooner rather than later ) and then we may be able to sack the lot of them and put real people in charge who understand aviation . And who care more about safety then arse covering .
Joined: Aug 2000
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Nigel
While you are correct the laws are an ass what are we supposed to do about it ?
keep on breaking the law until it is changed ? Live in the real world it wouldnt have mattered if every company stood up unless we are BA even then EASA will wave 2 fingers at everyone. EG R66 stopped certification due to the unknown failure rate of a valve that has been in a 206 for years. So taking this example even the biggest helicopter manufacturer in terms of numbers can not change anything !
While you are correct the laws are an ass what are we supposed to do about it ?
keep on breaking the law until it is changed ? Live in the real world it wouldnt have mattered if every company stood up unless we are BA even then EASA will wave 2 fingers at everyone. EG R66 stopped certification due to the unknown failure rate of a valve that has been in a 206 for years. So taking this example even the biggest helicopter manufacturer in terms of numbers can not change anything !
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,529
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From: yorkshire uk
Dennis .....dont waste your valuable time on this article ...it is quite obvious people are totally relaxed with things as they are and couldnt be bothered to try to make things better , safer ,cheaper .
ps I have never advocated breaking the law ....just operating helicopters legally without paying into the whole aoc thing . Anyway , bored now !!
ps I have never advocated breaking the law ....just operating helicopters legally without paying into the whole aoc thing . Anyway , bored now !!
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 162
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From: Close to the hangar, UK.
Dennis, I think you should write your article and ask the question as to whether the CAA, as an organisation that has to self fund, is fit for purpose? More importantly, is it an organisation that is promoting the growth of aviation within the UK as an intrinsic part of (what should be) a thriving modern economy?
In my opinion the answer to both these questions is no.
Previous posts have detailed how ridiculous some of the requirements are for an AOC flight, for example, 427m of open space to land an R44. I accept that there are some good reasons for the figures, but they stop helicopters being used for what the general public perceive they can be used for (and I’m not talking about landing on postage stamps and other CAT A twin tricks).
If the CAA were promoting aviation they would have spotted this problem (let’s face it, it’s not new) and with all their legal teams come up with a simple solution – a waiver. Now the customer could pay an AOC operator to fly an AOC maintained machine with a base and line checked pilot and accept that the landing site, whilst suitable for private operation, was not so for AOC work but waive their rights should an incident occur.
Each passenger would sign the waiver and then could fly with confidence knowing that:-
Simples!
In my opinion the answer to both these questions is no.
Previous posts have detailed how ridiculous some of the requirements are for an AOC flight, for example, 427m of open space to land an R44. I accept that there are some good reasons for the figures, but they stop helicopters being used for what the general public perceive they can be used for (and I’m not talking about landing on postage stamps and other CAT A twin tricks).
If the CAA were promoting aviation they would have spotted this problem (let’s face it, it’s not new) and with all their legal teams come up with a simple solution – a waiver. Now the customer could pay an AOC operator to fly an AOC maintained machine with a base and line checked pilot and accept that the landing site, whilst suitable for private operation, was not so for AOC work but waive their rights should an incident occur.
Each passenger would sign the waiver and then could fly with confidence knowing that:-
- The pilot knows how to operate every type of fire extinguisher except the one he has in the cockpit
- Knows that there is an eye patch and a sling in the first aid kit he’ll never get to after an accident
- Has sat through the same dangerous goods course every 2 years and has never checked a single bag or carried freight
- Has done a line check on each type they fly just in case the hotel’s move depending on the helicopter you’re in
- Is aware that you should not offer first aid unless you are wearing sterile gloves (which are in the burning helicopter) and is, therefore, compelled to watch a passenger bleed to death by his first aid training.
Simples!
Joined: Jul 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 508
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From: UK
Amended List of CAA Prosecutions
At my request, the CAA have published release 2 of their list of prosecutions. It amends details in my own personal case (CAA-v-Jackson) to remove unfounded, and potentially libelous, allegations with respect to the Skills Test.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/503/CAA%20...0releasev2.pdf
This may explain, to some of the naysayers, why I was awarded a conditional discharge by the court.
John Jackson
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/503/CAA%20...0releasev2.pdf
This may explain, to some of the naysayers, why I was awarded a conditional discharge by the court.
John Jackson
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: EGDC
So what you wrote in the skills test report and what actually happened (and was recorded in your personal logbook) were not the same thing ie operating from a non-licensed aerodrome but claiming you were for the purposes of the test.
Once your integrity is shown to be fragile you can hardly blame people for jumping to other conclusions.
Once your integrity is shown to be fragile you can hardly blame people for jumping to other conclusions.
Joined: Jul 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 508
Likes: 31
From: UK
Crab
You're quite right, I made a poor decision and I've suffered the consequences. However, there's a world of difference between jumping to conclusions and widely publishing, as fact, wholly unfounded allegations.
You won't hear me complaining about what they have now published as it is true.
JJ
You're quite right, I made a poor decision and I've suffered the consequences. However, there's a world of difference between jumping to conclusions and widely publishing, as fact, wholly unfounded allegations.
You won't hear me complaining about what they have now published as it is true.
JJ