Irish Air Corp HEMS accident
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Ahhh 500, a couple of well placed patches and she'll be rihgt as rain. I do not haowever assume that the wrinkles are a direct indicator of the heavy landing, that could have been the wires could it not? Those panels I suspect are not load bearing and are simply panels.
Last edited by bolkow; 20th Jun 2012 at 15:02.
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TC's reveal is quite remarkable. Can anyone think of anywhere else where such an expensive and relatively complicated piece of kit would be given to someone with so little experience?
Given the number of flying hours, this must have the highest accident rate of any HEMS worldwide, at the moment.
Surely too goodness, someone must be able to point out the madness of this setup.
The only good sign is that the accident is to be investigated by the civi investigators, rather than an in-house investigation.
Given the number of flying hours, this must have the highest accident rate of any HEMS worldwide, at the moment.
Surely too goodness, someone must be able to point out the madness of this setup.
The only good sign is that the accident is to be investigated by the civi investigators, rather than an in-house investigation.
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Surely too goodness, someone must be able to point out the madness of this setup.
As for a crash 15 days after starting a service. Well back in 1999, the Air Corps lost a Dauphin in a fatal crash while operating the first 24 hour SAR at Waterford airport. Literally on the first day of the service.
I do not haowever assume that the wrinkles are a direct indicator of the heavy landing, that could have been the wires could it not? Those panels I suspect are not load bearing and are simply panels.
skadi
The only good sign is that the accident is to be investigated by the civi investigato
The only good sign is that the accident is to be investigated by the civi investigators, rather than an in-house investigation
Just like the report when the IAC pilot hit the Fuel tank in Weston with his Tail whilst doing a nixer whilst being on sick leave.
Get some of the Good Sticks back from overseas to fly these contracts.
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These wrinkles were not formed by the wires
The wrinkles were caused by the landing which splayed the skids out fully also.
BW
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Thank God nobody was hurt. Unfortunately though, I have to agree with most people who have commented so far and say that I have only ever been shocked by the level of experience of most Air Corps pilots.
I once visited Casement and was being shown around by a young Lieutenant, he was qualified on 135, he told me he had 90 hours on type, all in Dunneworth? How much did that cost the Irish taxpayer? He also told me it was his first Helicopter type, very nice machine for your first Heli.
Then the best bit, an Engineer I knew there offered to connect external power to the aircraft so we could look at the glass and the Lieutenant couldn't find the external power authorisation switch, it literally took him five minutes to get the power online, and then he couldn't seem to remember how to display the moving map.
To say I was unimpressed was a huge understatement. There are many very competent multi engine, IFR rated pilots from Ireland on this forum, all working abroad as there are no jobs at home and then the HSE and Air Corps create an MOU without ever opening a bid to a Commercial operator and try to do the job cheaply, using the best kit bought by the Irish People, with some of the lowest houred pilots it's not surprising that this is what happens.
It is true that landing in fields in Ireland is VERY risky as there are phone lines, electrical wires etc. often criss crossing nearly every field, but this was a clear day in summer and I have to wonder what will happen, as someone already mentioned, when the winter or crappy summers day is upon them. I know many who read this thread landed in those very fields for many years and never destroyed an aircraft.
Unfortunately, it is true that the IAA and AAIU are all full of Ex-Air Corps people and if true to form, they will blame the ESB for locating the wires in a dangerous position. The pilot will get a medal and promoted and the service will resume.
Lunar
I once visited Casement and was being shown around by a young Lieutenant, he was qualified on 135, he told me he had 90 hours on type, all in Dunneworth? How much did that cost the Irish taxpayer? He also told me it was his first Helicopter type, very nice machine for your first Heli.
Then the best bit, an Engineer I knew there offered to connect external power to the aircraft so we could look at the glass and the Lieutenant couldn't find the external power authorisation switch, it literally took him five minutes to get the power online, and then he couldn't seem to remember how to display the moving map.
To say I was unimpressed was a huge understatement. There are many very competent multi engine, IFR rated pilots from Ireland on this forum, all working abroad as there are no jobs at home and then the HSE and Air Corps create an MOU without ever opening a bid to a Commercial operator and try to do the job cheaply, using the best kit bought by the Irish People, with some of the lowest houred pilots it's not surprising that this is what happens.
It is true that landing in fields in Ireland is VERY risky as there are phone lines, electrical wires etc. often criss crossing nearly every field, but this was a clear day in summer and I have to wonder what will happen, as someone already mentioned, when the winter or crappy summers day is upon them. I know many who read this thread landed in those very fields for many years and never destroyed an aircraft.
Unfortunately, it is true that the IAA and AAIU are all full of Ex-Air Corps people and if true to form, they will blame the ESB for locating the wires in a dangerous position. The pilot will get a medal and promoted and the service will resume.
Lunar
Sad but True
Should train them the basics on a Hu269 or even a 206. A Twin of that value as a primary trainer!! that's almost as mad as using a PC-9 as Basic trainer and then putting them into the Cessna once they graduate.
There is a Rumour that they Hit the Fenestron off a Pole down in The Athlone barricks. Just a Rumour!!,, This is a Rumour network after all.
I seen an IAC pilot at the Topaz station (off base) in his Flight suit and I could have sworn his Patch insignia had the Angry Birds Logo on it. !!
Why do they have a full motion sim for King Air when we don't even have the Airframe anymore, or do we?
There is a Rumour that they Hit the Fenestron off a Pole down in The Athlone barricks. Just a Rumour!!,, This is a Rumour network after all.
I seen an IAC pilot at the Topaz station (off base) in his Flight suit and I could have sworn his Patch insignia had the Angry Birds Logo on it. !!
Why do they have a full motion sim for King Air when we don't even have the Airframe anymore, or do we?
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Thomas Coupling - ?????
As I sit here in retirement I just cannot let this UTTER NONSENSE prevail
.
As someone who worked alongside a lot of these heli guys, I am ex GASU, your information is so inaccurate it's forced me off the fence; which is why, most people suspect, so many of these posts are scandalous and defamatory!!
Quiet aside from all the Agendas going on here....I suspect a number of you guys need heli jobs or have a personal axe to grind with the IAC (did they train a few of you - blue flu?) hence you are on the net all day, so it makes sense to 'have a go'? (IP addresses are logged)
I do know that the IAC got a company (**S) to train some of the younger pilots years ago. There were only two instructors who did work with them from that company, and their was a very serious allegation that one of these guys barrel-rolled a Garda ec-135 at the end of a training flight in Baldonnel, and was never allowed back into the place! Let's not mention the other issue!
As for the hours comments, the facts are that all AC pilots do 200 hrs+ on the PC 7or 9 and then 180+ rotary BEFORE they start basic line flying (they all do ATPLs too I think, but you can confirm that, I am going swimming).
As for their professionalism: my 2000+ hours EXPERIENCE of flying with these guys is that they were a royal pain because they were so safety conscious and it impacted on the GASU operation. But, with age and a pension, my respect has grown for them. I have HUGE time for their underpaid technicians.
As an ex-aerosexual, I know the following :
50 years of IAC helicopter operations (older than all of you I suspect); one fatal accident (RIP); a number of incidents - like all incidents, many were avoidable I am sure; and, during that time they launched the FIRST HELICOPTER AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE IN EUROPE; Day and Night SAR in Ireland; NV Ops, Army and Navy stuff for 40 years, and, 15+ years of safe GASU operations. And, some of you think they lack experience?
Ladies and Gents as a ex-policeman, I was trained to stay with the facts, you should do the same.
If they are so bad, then why are ex IAC lads Chief Pilots in CHC Ireland, Ryanair (biggest airline back home) and Bond and a whole host of other outfits? Doesn't fit your analysis at all - AGENDAS?
I owed the AC (for all our arguments) that, safe flying to all and trust only facts.
.As someone who worked alongside a lot of these heli guys, I am ex GASU, your information is so inaccurate it's forced me off the fence; which is why, most people suspect, so many of these posts are scandalous and defamatory!!
Quiet aside from all the Agendas going on here....I suspect a number of you guys need heli jobs or have a personal axe to grind with the IAC (did they train a few of you - blue flu?) hence you are on the net all day, so it makes sense to 'have a go'? (IP addresses are logged)I do know that the IAC got a company (**S) to train some of the younger pilots years ago. There were only two instructors who did work with them from that company, and their was a very serious allegation that one of these guys barrel-rolled a Garda ec-135 at the end of a training flight in Baldonnel, and was never allowed back into the place! Let's not mention the other issue!
As for the hours comments, the facts are that all AC pilots do 200 hrs+ on the PC 7or 9 and then 180+ rotary BEFORE they start basic line flying (they all do ATPLs too I think, but you can confirm that, I am going swimming).
As for their professionalism: my 2000+ hours EXPERIENCE of flying with these guys is that they were a royal pain because they were so safety conscious and it impacted on the GASU operation. But, with age and a pension, my respect has grown for them. I have HUGE time for their underpaid technicians.
As an ex-aerosexual, I know the following :
50 years of IAC helicopter operations (older than all of you I suspect); one fatal accident (RIP); a number of incidents - like all incidents, many were avoidable I am sure; and, during that time they launched the FIRST HELICOPTER AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE IN EUROPE; Day and Night SAR in Ireland; NV Ops, Army and Navy stuff for 40 years, and, 15+ years of safe GASU operations. And, some of you think they lack experience?
Ladies and Gents as a ex-policeman, I was trained to stay with the facts, you should do the same.
If they are so bad, then why are ex IAC lads Chief Pilots in CHC Ireland, Ryanair (biggest airline back home) and Bond and a whole host of other outfits? Doesn't fit your analysis at all - AGENDAS?
I owed the AC (for all our arguments) that, safe flying to all and trust only facts.
Avoid imitations
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If the discussion about lack of crew experience is correct, one must ask "whatever happened to continuity"? There was experience in the past, so what happened to it?
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A Twin of that value as a primary trainer!! that's almost as mad as using a PC-9 as Basic trainer and then putting them into the Cessna once they graduate.
The IAC culture was pronounced as very sick after the Daupin crash, sadly on the first day of operation as Corsair pointed out. Lessons weren't learned.
The PC-9 crash occurred. The culture was still not right unsurprisingly.
I'm so relieved that at least this time there are no dead IAC pilots to prove again that the IAC are still not getting things right. I don't criticize the front line pilots, they are not being protected as they should.
Take this "service" off the IAC and give it to a competent civilian contractor who can recruit openly and who are not impeded by having to train pilots from scratch. They weren't up to running SAR and they are not up to running HEMS.
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There was experience in the past, so what happened to it?
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The FACTS DO NOT SUPPORT any of these posts.
I keep repeating myself: FACTS only. I had many a fight with them BUT the IAC safety record is on par with any other outfit conducting similar ops. Their helicopter statistics are far better than most operators. Again, what are the agendas here?
I think the silence from those with any serious statistical support for the comments on the first few posts says it all. 50 years of helicopter operations and one fatal accident, and long may it be that way (their technicians deserve particular praise). This is a safety record that helicopter operators the world over would love, which is why the Gardai are staying put. The Dophin accident was 13 years ago. In any police or para-public operation, accidents and incidents WILL ALWAYS (very regrettably) happen. How many UK/european EC-135 and Squirrels were in incidents with Police and HEMS over the past 15-20 years? [Some super guys there by the way too]
Safety audit in 2002 said......it was conducted by ex USAF and British auditors......there were some minor issues, but all in all a VERY COMPETENT organisation conducting a wide range of Ops to a very high standard. Pilot training was singled out as being of a very high standard [even if I didnt get on with one or two of them]. Don't equal youth with incompetence or age with competence, dangerous assumptions.
So credit, where credit is due. As for private operators: as someone who receives Irish taxpayers' money every week; NO THANKS. 4 private SAR bases and its going to cost us €250,000-€300,000 per base per WEEK, and most of them are staffed by Irish Air Corps/Army/Navy
Are we deluding ourselves?? Just who would benefit if this was privatised? Some of the gentlemen that or on this forum perhaps?
FACTS DISMANTLE AGENDAS.
I think the silence from those with any serious statistical support for the comments on the first few posts says it all. 50 years of helicopter operations and one fatal accident, and long may it be that way (their technicians deserve particular praise). This is a safety record that helicopter operators the world over would love, which is why the Gardai are staying put. The Dophin accident was 13 years ago. In any police or para-public operation, accidents and incidents WILL ALWAYS (very regrettably) happen. How many UK/european EC-135 and Squirrels were in incidents with Police and HEMS over the past 15-20 years? [Some super guys there by the way too]
Safety audit in 2002 said......it was conducted by ex USAF and British auditors......there were some minor issues, but all in all a VERY COMPETENT organisation conducting a wide range of Ops to a very high standard. Pilot training was singled out as being of a very high standard [even if I didnt get on with one or two of them]. Don't equal youth with incompetence or age with competence, dangerous assumptions.
So credit, where credit is due. As for private operators: as someone who receives Irish taxpayers' money every week; NO THANKS. 4 private SAR bases and its going to cost us €250,000-€300,000 per base per WEEK, and most of them are staffed by Irish Air Corps/Army/Navy
Are we deluding ourselves?? Just who would benefit if this was privatised? Some of the gentlemen that or on this forum perhaps?
FACTS DISMANTLE AGENDAS.
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The IAC carrying out another civil role. FACT.
IAC have no AOC to carry out HEMS. FACT.
IAA turn a blind eye. FACT
NTSB report on HEMS. FACT.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/speeches/...March-2010.pdf
Give it a read and consider what has just happened.
But stick around because rumour has it from tomorrow they will go at it again with an AW 139. No accountability, external overview or auditing. All FACT.
IAC have no AOC to carry out HEMS. FACT.
IAA turn a blind eye. FACT
NTSB report on HEMS. FACT.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/speeches/...March-2010.pdf
Give it a read and consider what has just happened.
But stick around because rumour has it from tomorrow they will go at it again with an AW 139. No accountability, external overview or auditing. All FACT.
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Justthefact, with all due respect you were a cop not a pilot or aircrew and GASU was not a semi HEMS operation with off site landings. Respect to your experience but it's not that relevant and it's pretty clear things have changed.
A couple of points, sure the Air Corps had a good safety record with helicopters. I think Aerospatiale once calculated they should have lost twenty Alouettes over the period they were in service. But they only ever had eight and only lost a couple.
Impressive? At first sight. Then you consider the reality. They were day VFR only, rarely deployed away from base and never saw any form of combat or even austere deployments. As you also point out the pilots were conservative to the point of frustration to the Gardai
Thanks for confirming that rumour.
As ever you fall back on the usual BS accusations when someone points out some faults of the Air Corps:
Yeah I hate the Air Corps because they didn't pick me 
, juvenile crap.
The point is that this kind of HEMS flying is notoriously risky. In the UK and the US it's invariably flown by very experienced ex military pilots with a lot of time flying into risky situations sometime under fire. This is not the current Air Corps level of experience.
The fact is that many people confidently predicted an accident or incident like this and were proved right. It doesn't matter whether or not the the pilots were well trained or not. The simple fact is that they have little or no experience of HEMS work and indeed minimal experience of operations away from Baldonnel or into tight LZs. This operation was set up as a political expedient by politicians, presumably abetted by the Air Corps brass.
None of this can be construed as criticism of the individual aircrew involved in this. Whether they be well trained or poorly trained, inexperienced or experienced. They're soldiers. They obey orders. They don't have a choice.
Quite simply this operation should never have been considered in the first place.
So get off your high horse.
A couple of points, sure the Air Corps had a good safety record with helicopters. I think Aerospatiale once calculated they should have lost twenty Alouettes over the period they were in service. But they only ever had eight and only lost a couple.
Impressive? At first sight. Then you consider the reality. They were day VFR only, rarely deployed away from base and never saw any form of combat or even austere deployments. As you also point out the pilots were conservative to the point of frustration to the Gardai
were a royal pain because they were so safety conscious and it impacted on the GASU operation.
As ever you fall back on the usual BS accusations when someone points out some faults of the Air Corps:
Quiet aside from all the Agendas going on here....I suspect a number of you guys need heli jobs or have a personal axe to grind with the IAC
, juvenile crap.The point is that this kind of HEMS flying is notoriously risky. In the UK and the US it's invariably flown by very experienced ex military pilots with a lot of time flying into risky situations sometime under fire. This is not the current Air Corps level of experience.
The fact is that many people confidently predicted an accident or incident like this and were proved right. It doesn't matter whether or not the the pilots were well trained or not. The simple fact is that they have little or no experience of HEMS work and indeed minimal experience of operations away from Baldonnel or into tight LZs. This operation was set up as a political expedient by politicians, presumably abetted by the Air Corps brass.
None of this can be construed as criticism of the individual aircrew involved in this. Whether they be well trained or poorly trained, inexperienced or experienced. They're soldiers. They obey orders. They don't have a choice.
Quite simply this operation should never have been considered in the first place.
So get off your high horse.
Avoid imitations
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IAC have no AOC to carry out HEMS. FACT.
HEMS cannot really be compared with SAR, btw.