Irish Air Corp HEMS accident
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After justthefacts intervention I thought it might be interesting to review the IAC Dauphin SAR accident. It is available here:
Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports
I hesitate to comment for fear of more threats, but if anyone looks at it, it contains some interesting facts and opinions from professional aviators and comments about management, equipment, staffing, currency and experience.
I wonder whether the investigation of this latest accident will have similar observations?
Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports
I hesitate to comment for fear of more threats, but if anyone looks at it, it contains some interesting facts and opinions from professional aviators and comments about management, equipment, staffing, currency and experience.
I wonder whether the investigation of this latest accident will have similar observations?
Last edited by Helinut; 21st Jun 2012 at 22:50.
Corsair, the IAC operated eight Alouette IIIs for 43 years. In that time only one was written off. All eight airframes were present at Baldonnell in September 2007 on the date of their retirement from service. Six flew that day and No.7 could probably have been returned to airworthy condition if it had been required. A202 was also present that day after being rebuilt to static condition. So, all eight helicopters were present after a lengthy period of service having saved many lives, often in less than favourable conditions. Not a bad record for an outfit as shoddy as the IAC!
Many here seem to have an axe to grind when it comes to the IAC. It is good to see that justthefact is bringing a little balance to the debate.
I would have to agree with you, Corsair, when it comes to the political influence that the clowns we have for politicians have over the decision to set up this particular operation. It may well be the case that this HEMS operation was seen as a vote-getter for the current regime to remain in power come election time. The Minister for Health can tell everyone he was the man behind this air ambulance service. With no private HEMS operation on the horizon, he has grabbed the bull by the horns and got this service going, or so he likes to think. The direction then came down from the DOD to put it in place and that is what has happened. I doubt Brigadier General Paul Fry is happy with the level of funding he has to run the IAC. He has to make do with what he has. Does he turn around and tell the Ministers that the IAC are not capable of running this service? Perhaps he should if this is indeed the case but I doubt anyone in his shoes would. Instead he does his best, along with those below him, to try and get the job done. Funding has always been a problem in the IAC and the problem has never been more acute than it is today, I would imagine.
Someone wrote earlier that the IAC weren't up to running SAR. They seemed to do OK for a very long time. The Dauphin crash report highlighted the failings across the board, not just laying the blame with the IAC. The Dauphin is no doubt a fine aircraft, but probably was not ideal for SAR, certainly along the western seaboard in Ireland. That report highlighted the need for suitable aircraft, yet the government were found wanting and never procured suitable helicopters. They managed to mess up the deal to buy the S-92 (maybe a good thing in the end, given the MGB problems). When an S-61 was leased and flown by IAC crews, the winch gear for the rear crew proved to be faulty. The crews raised the issue and took a stand. The politicians then decided they had had enough and pulled the plug on IAC SAR ops. Maybe the winch crews could have tackled the issue in a better manner, or maybe they did the correct thing. It all depends on which version of events you choose to believe.
Hopefully the lessons from this HEMS incident will be learned and the IAC can move forward. Justthefact might be correct when he states some here have an agenda. The way some people here are talking you'd swear every flight undertaken by the IAC results in a crash.
500 Fan.
Many here seem to have an axe to grind when it comes to the IAC. It is good to see that justthefact is bringing a little balance to the debate.
I would have to agree with you, Corsair, when it comes to the political influence that the clowns we have for politicians have over the decision to set up this particular operation. It may well be the case that this HEMS operation was seen as a vote-getter for the current regime to remain in power come election time. The Minister for Health can tell everyone he was the man behind this air ambulance service. With no private HEMS operation on the horizon, he has grabbed the bull by the horns and got this service going, or so he likes to think. The direction then came down from the DOD to put it in place and that is what has happened. I doubt Brigadier General Paul Fry is happy with the level of funding he has to run the IAC. He has to make do with what he has. Does he turn around and tell the Ministers that the IAC are not capable of running this service? Perhaps he should if this is indeed the case but I doubt anyone in his shoes would. Instead he does his best, along with those below him, to try and get the job done. Funding has always been a problem in the IAC and the problem has never been more acute than it is today, I would imagine.
Someone wrote earlier that the IAC weren't up to running SAR. They seemed to do OK for a very long time. The Dauphin crash report highlighted the failings across the board, not just laying the blame with the IAC. The Dauphin is no doubt a fine aircraft, but probably was not ideal for SAR, certainly along the western seaboard in Ireland. That report highlighted the need for suitable aircraft, yet the government were found wanting and never procured suitable helicopters. They managed to mess up the deal to buy the S-92 (maybe a good thing in the end, given the MGB problems). When an S-61 was leased and flown by IAC crews, the winch gear for the rear crew proved to be faulty. The crews raised the issue and took a stand. The politicians then decided they had had enough and pulled the plug on IAC SAR ops. Maybe the winch crews could have tackled the issue in a better manner, or maybe they did the correct thing. It all depends on which version of events you choose to believe.
Hopefully the lessons from this HEMS incident will be learned and the IAC can move forward. Justthefact might be correct when he states some here have an agenda. The way some people here are talking you'd swear every flight undertaken by the IAC results in a crash.
500 Fan.
In an attempt to add a little balance to the discussion:
If you think an experienced, well trained, HEMS pilot is incapable of hitting wires then you don't understand the risk!
If the military are operating the helicopter, public transport etc. doesn't come into it any more than the views of the national aviation authority does. That's not to say that there won't be discussions at a certain level.
Cheers
TeeS
If you think an experienced, well trained, HEMS pilot is incapable of hitting wires then you don't understand the risk!
If the military are operating the helicopter, public transport etc. doesn't come into it any more than the views of the national aviation authority does. That's not to say that there won't be discussions at a certain level.
Cheers
TeeS
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It's a rumour network-FACT!
IP Addresses are logged!!!! What an interesting point our "friend" makes, or was it some sort of threat. If I didn't have so many friends who are decent Police I'd make more of that point.
All that I write here is from personal experience, sitting with Air Corps pilots and having them tell me things that happened. I talked with an Italian pilot in Agusta about the delivery flight of the AW139's. Two in flight, one entered IMC and over-torqued the heli on exiting. Then declared a MAYDAY and diverted to Cannes for the night.
IAC engineer inspected the heli and cleared it to fly to Ireland. It got back to base and all was reported to Agusta at which point the aircraft was grounded. The second aircraft was running ground runs the next day and a taxing Alouette blew for into the engine, so in two days they had an aircraft down for over torque and lost an engine.
Anyone could hit power lines, I'm sure many of the professional helicopter PILOTS reading this will all have stories about it but with experience, and I'm not talking about 400 hours of qualification on FW and then Heli, I am talking THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours of sitting in the seat we can decrease the chances of an incident or accident.
I have opinions about the Air Corps, however I have no axe to grind, I did not attempt to join the IAC. I simply think it is completely wrong for a service to be set up to move patients around Ireland that uses state assets with no oversight. There are many "stories' about various aircraft the Air Corps have destroyed over the years but all of those that happened on Casement and were not in the public arena are subject to the official secrets act and will not be released for many years to come. So telling us how safe the Air Corps is a bit interesting.
What I do really object to is being threatened in some way by someone who joins a Professional Pilots RUMOUR network and comments in such a self righteous manner and spouts "facts", when the simple fact is that he is neither a pilot or professional in this area of expertise.
Lunar.
IP Addresses are logged!!!! What an interesting point our "friend" makes, or was it some sort of threat. If I didn't have so many friends who are decent Police I'd make more of that point.
All that I write here is from personal experience, sitting with Air Corps pilots and having them tell me things that happened. I talked with an Italian pilot in Agusta about the delivery flight of the AW139's. Two in flight, one entered IMC and over-torqued the heli on exiting. Then declared a MAYDAY and diverted to Cannes for the night.
IAC engineer inspected the heli and cleared it to fly to Ireland. It got back to base and all was reported to Agusta at which point the aircraft was grounded. The second aircraft was running ground runs the next day and a taxing Alouette blew for into the engine, so in two days they had an aircraft down for over torque and lost an engine.
Anyone could hit power lines, I'm sure many of the professional helicopter PILOTS reading this will all have stories about it but with experience, and I'm not talking about 400 hours of qualification on FW and then Heli, I am talking THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours of sitting in the seat we can decrease the chances of an incident or accident.
I have opinions about the Air Corps, however I have no axe to grind, I did not attempt to join the IAC. I simply think it is completely wrong for a service to be set up to move patients around Ireland that uses state assets with no oversight. There are many "stories' about various aircraft the Air Corps have destroyed over the years but all of those that happened on Casement and were not in the public arena are subject to the official secrets act and will not be released for many years to come. So telling us how safe the Air Corps is a bit interesting.
What I do really object to is being threatened in some way by someone who joins a Professional Pilots RUMOUR network and comments in such a self righteous manner and spouts "facts", when the simple fact is that he is neither a pilot or professional in this area of expertise.
Lunar.
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I have seen this happen before, on other forums too. The IAC are involved in an accident or incident, people with aviation experience discuss it, brining their point of views. Some of it doesn't sit well with IAC fans ( the truth hurts some time) so you are then seen as having an axe to grind or worse again threatened.
Here is a link to a more recent crash report which unfortunately had fatalities. Yes, I know it's fix wing. But reading it in conjunction with the Dauphine crash, have any lessons been learned.
Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports
Here is a link to a more recent crash report which unfortunately had fatalities. Yes, I know it's fix wing. But reading it in conjunction with the Dauphine crash, have any lessons been learned.
Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports
Last edited by Pink Panther; 22nd Jun 2012 at 08:37.
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I doubt Brigadier General Paul Fry is happy with the level of funding he has to run the IAC. He has to make do with what he has. Does he turn around and tell the Ministers that the IAC are not capable of running this service?
Accountability, something that is sorely lacking in the Irish public service.
You can argue that it was the pilot's fault for not seeing the powerline but you might equally argue that the General is at fault for placing him in that position in the first place.
I always had a high opinion of the Air Corps, that has sadly declined of late. Not least because of an incident I had a near miss with an Air Corps aircraft who despite the fact that both I and ATC had advised him of my presence, he breezed through just below me, either lost or uncaring. Unbelievable stuff that even a low time PPL wouldn't do.
Last edited by corsair; 22nd Jun 2012 at 10:04.
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With reference to that recent PC9 crash report , there is a very interesting section in it in relation to safety audits in the Flying School section of the IAC , apparently there were none available to the AAIU from 2004 -2009?
This coupled with the delays in the publiction of the report and attempts to prevent its publication should be a cause for concern .
Thankfully the 135 incident did not result in loss of life.
This coupled with the delays in the publiction of the report and attempts to prevent its publication should be a cause for concern .
Thankfully the 135 incident did not result in loss of life.
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This is a safety record that helicopter operators the world over would love, which is why the Gardai are staying put.
Perhaps he should if this is indeed the case but I doubt anyone in his shoes would. Instead he does his best, along with those below him, to try and get the job done.
I have no "axe to grind" with the IAC but I am no fanboi or groupie either. The reports about the Dauphin and the PC-9 have covered these cultural and organizational deficiencies before and very little seems to have changed. That's the really astounding bit.
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AW 139 on line today in Bal to cover HEMS.
The "boss" has pushed very hard for this. The same people in management roles since the Dauphin crash. How could they learn anything.
Unregulated non JAR compliant and unaudited. The HSE crews should take note.
The "boss" has pushed very hard for this. The same people in management roles since the Dauphin crash. How could they learn anything.
Unregulated non JAR compliant and unaudited. The HSE crews should take note.
Just the facts: Is your first language English?
What an embarrassing outburst for someone so ill equipped to comment.
The point's been made: these are regular troops doing as they are told. It is their management right up to their government who are letting everyone down.
I hope for the troopers' sake, their bosses get wind of this thread and take heed.
The clock is ticking guys - next time Pprune could be talking about another fatality in their fraternity.
What an embarrassing outburst for someone so ill equipped to comment.
The point's been made: these are regular troops doing as they are told. It is their management right up to their government who are letting everyone down.
I hope for the troopers' sake, their bosses get wind of this thread and take heed.
The clock is ticking guys - next time Pprune could be talking about another fatality in their fraternity.
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What a condescending reply Thomas.
Justthefacts said he's a retired Garda. So his "first language" as you put it is actually Irish!
Seriously though, are his opinions not valid, seeing as he actually flew with the IAC? Or do you choose to ignore the first hand thoughts of the rear crew. I would have thought an ex-mil guy like yourself (RN weren't you?) would have more respect for their observations.
Justthefacts said he's a retired Garda. So his "first language" as you put it is actually Irish!
Seriously though, are his opinions not valid, seeing as he actually flew with the IAC? Or do you choose to ignore the first hand thoughts of the rear crew. I would have thought an ex-mil guy like yourself (RN weren't you?) would have more respect for their observations.
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Laughable!
Is your first language English TC????
'The point's been made'
There are too many factually inaccurate assertions in this thread to even attempt to counter, but certainly your arrogance should not go unchecked!
'The point's been made'
There are too many factually inaccurate assertions in this thread to even attempt to counter, but certainly your arrogance should not go unchecked!
Calm down you lot.
There's enough (first hand) evidence here on this thread to condemn the IAC for their activities in HEMS. None of it is made up gibberish.
Ben Power, the fact that he was a police observer suggests and reminds me that he doesn't or couldn't tell a dodgy pilot if one sat on his lap! Non aircrew don't know when pilots are dangerous. All observers think their pilots are wonderful!
T5: I don't understand your post? What's wrong with "the point's been made"??
Guys get over it - the IAC are useless at HEMS. the end.
There's enough (first hand) evidence here on this thread to condemn the IAC for their activities in HEMS. None of it is made up gibberish.
Ben Power, the fact that he was a police observer suggests and reminds me that he doesn't or couldn't tell a dodgy pilot if one sat on his lap! Non aircrew don't know when pilots are dangerous. All observers think their pilots are wonderful!
T5: I don't understand your post? What's wrong with "the point's been made"??
Guys get over it - the IAC are useless at HEMS. the end.
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Justthefact,
I suggest you go to this thread linked below and particularly read post no: 25. I'm hazarding a quests here, but looks to me like it might possibly be written by a past member of the IAC giving a list of known, and I stress, known accidents and incidents. Makes for very interesting reading indeed.
PC 9 Crash report
You would rather HEMS, and SAR were carried out the IAC
I suggest you go to this thread linked below and particularly read post no: 25. I'm hazarding a quests here, but looks to me like it might possibly be written by a past member of the IAC giving a list of known, and I stress, known accidents and incidents. Makes for very interesting reading indeed.
PC 9 Crash report
You would rather HEMS, and SAR were carried out the IAC
Last edited by Pink Panther; 24th Jun 2012 at 19:59.
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Most interesting how many of those accidents have been kept quiet.
Also worth a read, especially for those former GASU members....
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3977-0.pdf
Note the PAS reservations about competence.
H
Also worth a read, especially for those former GASU members....
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3977-0.pdf
Note the PAS reservations about competence.
H
Well, well, lookee here: Thanks for this Hedski, this is the incident I was talking about earlier. Glad we also now have proof. Happy now T5?
Noticeably too, PAS expressed concern - coincidentally around the same time I was going thru PAS with the GASU too....
Noticeably too, PAS expressed concern - coincidentally around the same time I was going thru PAS with the GASU too....
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I see the 139 is now going to cover the unregulated HEMS op from Athlone for the weekend. Best of luck with that . Is it the same 139 that put out a PAN PAN call and landed on at Baldonnel with a possible over torque about 5 days before the 135 wire strike?