Blue times at ORNGE
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Blue times at ORNGE
Minister sees red as CEO rakes in the green; locals jaded over suspicions of golden parachute. 
ORNGE spinoff lands rich payout from same firm that sold Ontario its air ambulances
Shortage of paramedics leaves ORNGE helicopter idle
ORNGE ordered to open books by health minister
ORNGE president was paid $1.4 million per year
Why was ORNGE chopper delayed 44 minutes as cyclist lay dying in rural hospital?
ORNGE spinoff lands rich payout from same firm that sold Ontario its air ambulances
Shortage of paramedics leaves ORNGE helicopter idle
ORNGE ordered to open books by health minister
ORNGE president was paid $1.4 million per year
Why was ORNGE chopper delayed 44 minutes as cyclist lay dying in rural hospital?
Nothing like competition to make for better service....oh...sorry....there is no competition in Ontario is there?
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This comes as no surprise. A friend of mine who works there told me earler this year that there were problems and a high staff turnover. She also said the new AW-139s are bigger and more expensive than necessary. 80% of the flights are one patient hospital to hospital transfers and most of the emergency calls involve only one patient. The 139s are equipped for 2 patients - most of the time unnecessary.
From the sounds of it SM....one could do it cheaper using any aircraft including the 139....if the operation was confronted with a need to be competitive, meet customer needs, and face dissolution if their business model failed. When one achieves "Non-Profit" status and is funded by Government....is it any surprise "efficiency" and "Quality of service" become secondary concerns and Management compensation, perks, and classy office buildings become the priority!
SM....if they showed up when needed by the injured...it would be an improvement. Just how can you ignore the only EMS service being out of service for lack of Medical crew on a frequent basis?
That is sheer incompetence pesonified!
Smart assed comments like yours don't add to the discussion SM!
Senior Pilot....as I can not withstand responding to Shell Management when he makes such posts.....I will unilaterally end such temptation and put him back on "Ignore" as I have done on and off over the past couple of years.
SM....if they showed up when needed by the injured...it would be an improvement. Just how can you ignore the only EMS service being out of service for lack of Medical crew on a frequent basis?
That is sheer incompetence pesonified!
Smart assed comments like yours don't add to the discussion SM!
Senior Pilot....as I can not withstand responding to Shell Management when he makes such posts.....I will unilaterally end such temptation and put him back on "Ignore" as I have done on and off over the past couple of years.
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interesting choice
I take it that if SM was injured somewhere he would choose to have a $20 milliion dollar aircraft sitting far away and not responding rather than a 206 sitting at the scene of his accident with a competent crew ready to transport him to a higher level of care.
As for my current program, we launch on standby. We launch having no idea how the patient will pay for the service. We do not discriminate our services based on the patients ability to pay but rather on their urgent need for the highest level of professional care. We do all of this in an EC145 or an A-Star or whatever the aircraft is that is closest to the need. If our competition is closer, they get the call. I don't think a patient lying at the side of the road has ever said he would rather wait for a BK.
The CEO of the company gets paid very well but he also manages over 400 helicopters and airplanes and the crews and staff to keep the organization running as smoothly as possible. All of this across the entire country. The task of maintaining the aircraft, training the crews, dealing with the FAA etc. would be overwhelming to most people. I am certain that his pay per paitient served is vastly lower than that paid to a government program administrator.
Government run programs are fraught with waste. The article on Ornge is very telling about the incredible amount of waste in the system and then the problems of dealing with the waste. A 139 to do what an AStar could easily do? Yeah, then you start to hear screaming about the waste of money over launching on standby. The care of the patient is beng dictated by the cost of the response. What is the blade hour cost of a 139 compared to an AStar? $10,000 per hour compared to $1500? A government run program like this one is best described in the old adage, "What is the definition of an elephant? A mouse built to government specifications".
So in the final analysis, how is the patient better served? When you are the patient, what would you rather have, a helicopter enroute or some bureaucrat calculating the cost of the launch and deciding you are not worth it?
Cheers and Merry Chirstmas
As for my current program, we launch on standby. We launch having no idea how the patient will pay for the service. We do not discriminate our services based on the patients ability to pay but rather on their urgent need for the highest level of professional care. We do all of this in an EC145 or an A-Star or whatever the aircraft is that is closest to the need. If our competition is closer, they get the call. I don't think a patient lying at the side of the road has ever said he would rather wait for a BK.
The CEO of the company gets paid very well but he also manages over 400 helicopters and airplanes and the crews and staff to keep the organization running as smoothly as possible. All of this across the entire country. The task of maintaining the aircraft, training the crews, dealing with the FAA etc. would be overwhelming to most people. I am certain that his pay per paitient served is vastly lower than that paid to a government program administrator.
Government run programs are fraught with waste. The article on Ornge is very telling about the incredible amount of waste in the system and then the problems of dealing with the waste. A 139 to do what an AStar could easily do? Yeah, then you start to hear screaming about the waste of money over launching on standby. The care of the patient is beng dictated by the cost of the response. What is the blade hour cost of a 139 compared to an AStar? $10,000 per hour compared to $1500? A government run program like this one is best described in the old adage, "What is the definition of an elephant? A mouse built to government specifications".
So in the final analysis, how is the patient better served? When you are the patient, what would you rather have, a helicopter enroute or some bureaucrat calculating the cost of the launch and deciding you are not worth it?
Cheers and Merry Chirstmas
"Non-profit" organizations are a red flag to me, having done the international UN thing. All the non-profits drove Range Rovers, all the for-profit drove Nissans.
STARS in Calgary, now trying to expand to the rest of Canada, is another non-profit that the people funding should be questioning. They too bought several AW139's, maybe 5-6 years ago. Every year I see all their pilots at NJ for recurrent training. And they haven't flown one hour with their 139's yet, we'll see if it happens in 2012. "Non-profit" money down the toilet, but a very well compensated executive.
I feel badly for Agusta. Good product besmirched by association to sad sack operators. What were they thinking throwing in with that slimy ORNGE bunch anyway?
STARS in Calgary, now trying to expand to the rest of Canada, is another non-profit that the people funding should be questioning. They too bought several AW139's, maybe 5-6 years ago. Every year I see all their pilots at NJ for recurrent training. And they haven't flown one hour with their 139's yet, we'll see if it happens in 2012. "Non-profit" money down the toilet, but a very well compensated executive.
I feel badly for Agusta. Good product besmirched by association to sad sack operators. What were they thinking throwing in with that slimy ORNGE bunch anyway?
grumpytroll... 
Well said.
Sasless
I'm with you, but leave him "Un-ignored" just so I can laugh at his stupidity and complete lack of understanding of the industry as a whole.
Well said.
Sasless
Senior Pilot....as I can not withstand responding to Shell Management when he makes such posts.....I will unilaterally end such temptation and put him back on "Ignore" as I have done on and off over the past couple of years.
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Unless they were paying too much for the 139s and the executives salaries that they decided to try and short change the paramedics, therefore it would be related to the helicopter 
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It looks to be a clear need for a cost vs benefit analysis. If we compare having a helicopter that flies with lower DOCs and can fly 70% of the missions to a helicopter that can fly 90% of the missions but has a cost that drives the operation out of business, the helicopter with the lower DOCs will win out every time. If sufficient funds are available in a country to pay to send out an Agusta 139 for every medevac mission then I say great, buy Agusta 139s. If the market can only support Astars or 407s then go with the Astars or 407s and send ground ambulances on missions they can't support. Having cheaper medevac helicopters available on a lower percentage of missions is far better than having no helicopters available due to their cost of operation.
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Originally Posted by tottigol
"....if the market can only support Astars and 407s...."
I see you still see it as the US EMS industry does, why not stick to 206L-1s then,they are even less expensive to operate.
Merry Christmas.
I see you still see it as the US EMS industry does, why not stick to 206L-1s then,they are even less expensive to operate.
Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to you as well!
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and furthermore..
Originally Posted by tottigol
BestofteWest, ORNGE moved to 139s because of their need to fly in IMC where known icing conditions exist. To do so, they exchanged their antique S-76A models for AW139s, Astars of any flavor or any other VFR single where not even in their nightmares.
A similar program in a different Canadian region is also flying 139s.
The possible internal squabbles of management vs medical or cockpit crews are just that, internal (as I am quite sure that Grumpy knows given that his CLA expired two years ago without even hint of a renewal).
Whomever would rather fly in an inferior or not suitable airframe for a specific mission just to get paid more money ought to take a good and hard look at that face in the mirror in the morning before blaming someone else for safety or lack thereof.
A similar program in a different Canadian region is also flying 139s.
The possible internal squabbles of management vs medical or cockpit crews are just that, internal (as I am quite sure that Grumpy knows given that his CLA expired two years ago without even hint of a renewal).
Whomever would rather fly in an inferior or not suitable airframe for a specific mission just to get paid more money ought to take a good and hard look at that face in the mirror in the morning before blaming someone else for safety or lack thereof.
I gather you take alot of this ORNGE stuff personally. Sorry for that. No one has questioned the safety or competence of the crews (athough you imply that we here in the states should feel honored to fall under your close scrutiny). I have read many fine articles about the program in professional journals and am very impressed. The paint job is wonderful.
Clearly from the information provided on this thread, the problems are of a financial nature. In is ironic that, as your comments point out, the apparent weakness you see in the US system is also financial but in a different direction. You don't feel that any helicopter other that something as grand as the 139 should ever be considered for EMS under any circumstances. I, of course, disagree. Instead of beating up the yanks as part of your argument, why not just admit that there is a happy place in the middle of all of this for everyone? There is no point in repeating the logical explanation provided by HueyDog or Best of the West.
Here is my final take of the subject. Ornge needs to gets its priorities straight and its financial house in order so the patients and taxpayers can get the service they deserve. It has nothing to do with the pilots, their skills, training or competence. I hope thats not too controversial.
I copied this statement from one of the stories. if this doesn't make you shake your head then nothing will. Dr. Mazza's salary, 1.6 million per year. Pretty good for a non-profit. He is now on medical leave. This entire story is quite shocking all the way around.
MacDonald emailed the Star Monday to cancel a scheduled interview with ORNGE’s president Chris Mazza, saying that “we are not satisfied that the Star intends to fairly and responsibly report on ORNGE.” MacDonald’s email came the day the Star published a story revealing that a group of ORNGE executives, including Mazza, work for a for-profit consulting company that has a $6.7 million contract to provide marketing services for AgustaWestland, the company that sold 10 helicopters to ORNGE for $120 million.
Cheers
Last edited by grumpytroll; 25th Dec 2011 at 14:39.
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I believe the criteria
to dispatch the helicopter was met by the paramedics on scene doing so at 3:41PM. Who else is going to asses the victim/patient and make that decision?
Sounds like awkward communications, a poorly defined and/or implemented policy with regards not wasting money through unnecessary dispatch, or both, got in the way.
Kind of typical when a business upgrades to larger equipment then finds out it really does cost more, most likely a lot more in this case.
All the concern about flying in known icing is a bit overblown. Helicopters and airplanes do not belong in icing conditions and the objective on noticing it is to get out of it, not continue to wallow in its presence. As a matter of safety having anti-ice capability is understandable, but probably simply not worth it if the cost makes the overall operation financially unsustainable. Better to have some capability, than none.
Sounds like awkward communications, a poorly defined and/or implemented policy with regards not wasting money through unnecessary dispatch, or both, got in the way.
Kind of typical when a business upgrades to larger equipment then finds out it really does cost more, most likely a lot more in this case.
All the concern about flying in known icing is a bit overblown. Helicopters and airplanes do not belong in icing conditions and the objective on noticing it is to get out of it, not continue to wallow in its presence. As a matter of safety having anti-ice capability is understandable, but probably simply not worth it if the cost makes the overall operation financially unsustainable. Better to have some capability, than none.
To your respective neutral corners guys.....it is Canada...not the USA. It is a discussion about one particular EMS operation...a non-profit organization funded by the Government.
The issues that need discussing are simple....and pertain to the particular operation, its business model, the quality of service, the compensation of its executives, the fact those in charge of the non-profit have spun off into other for gain operations on the back of the Non-Profit, taken up a very cozy relationship with the Aircraft Maker that they bought some very expensive helicopters from. Now when the spotlight is placed squarely upon those folks by the media....the government then gets concerned as they are about to made to look like Fools for letting this thing get out of hand. The CEO does a runner for "medical reasons" and the PR folks say the Media cannot be trusted to make a fair and impartial report and refuses to discuss the situation.
Lets stick to this for a while....as it has the potential to be a very good expose' of public corruption, fraud, bribery, and how not to run an EMS operation even when you cannot lose money no matter how incompetent you are so long as your supporter (in this case the Taxpayers of Ontario ) turns a blind eye to the whole thing.
One could not make up a TV show with a plot as good as this one is going to turn out to be!
I'll ask a rhetorical question.....who was/is going to gain from the re-sale of the 139's when it is determined they could not afford the cost to operate the aircraft? Where overseas (think Middle East) were these things going to wind up and who would have coordinated the deal? Whose pockets were going to get fattened from Consulting Fees, Commissions, and Bonuses?
As an old Fraud Investigator for the US Navy....."Follow the Money!"
Where was it supposed to go....and where did it actually go...and who had the control of the process to make that diversion happen?
If it quacks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, swims like a Duck....it might just be a Duck!
The issues that need discussing are simple....and pertain to the particular operation, its business model, the quality of service, the compensation of its executives, the fact those in charge of the non-profit have spun off into other for gain operations on the back of the Non-Profit, taken up a very cozy relationship with the Aircraft Maker that they bought some very expensive helicopters from. Now when the spotlight is placed squarely upon those folks by the media....the government then gets concerned as they are about to made to look like Fools for letting this thing get out of hand. The CEO does a runner for "medical reasons" and the PR folks say the Media cannot be trusted to make a fair and impartial report and refuses to discuss the situation.
Lets stick to this for a while....as it has the potential to be a very good expose' of public corruption, fraud, bribery, and how not to run an EMS operation even when you cannot lose money no matter how incompetent you are so long as your supporter (in this case the Taxpayers of Ontario ) turns a blind eye to the whole thing.
One could not make up a TV show with a plot as good as this one is going to turn out to be!
I'll ask a rhetorical question.....who was/is going to gain from the re-sale of the 139's when it is determined they could not afford the cost to operate the aircraft? Where overseas (think Middle East) were these things going to wind up and who would have coordinated the deal? Whose pockets were going to get fattened from Consulting Fees, Commissions, and Bonuses?
As an old Fraud Investigator for the US Navy....."Follow the Money!"
Where was it supposed to go....and where did it actually go...and who had the control of the process to make that diversion happen?
If it quacks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, swims like a Duck....it might just be a Duck!
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Ornge!
Our system has been destroyed.Ornge came in 2006 and everything has been going down since.We are a model of inefficiency.The AW139 is a non sense for an air ambulance,we burn 60% more fuel,the level of maintenance is asthonishing,we need sometimes 3 aircraft's to get one serviceable,it is completely unsustainable with the budget cut who will come during the next 5 years.At the end,we do less than before and it all comes from Ornge
The FIPS never worked and the slip ring failure we had could have killed everybody on board.There is nothing good of having an AW139 for an Air Ambulance
The FIPS never worked and the slip ring failure we had could have killed everybody on board.There is nothing good of having an AW139 for an Air Ambulance
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Arcal - The AW139 is actually a decent EMS helo, IF the operation warrants it. There are 139s operating in Italy, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Spain and many other countries. Its all about horses for courses and it seems from the newspaper articles there was a lot of kickbacks to the CEO so that makes me wonder if the only reason they got the 139s was because of the lining of his pocket albeit through his other companies.
BOTW
BOTW
MISSISSAUGA, ON – Jan 11 – The Ornge Foundation is pleased to receive a donation of over $343,000 from Pilatus, the world’s leading manufacturer of single-engine turboprop aircraft. This generous donation will be used in Ornge’s Academy of Transport Medicine (ATM) to support the simulation program.
Pilatus gets paid full price on the aircraft, rebates the donation money, gets a tax deduction for charitable giving....I wonder if any of the other competitors were offered that deal/offer/idea?
Now if I wuz looking into this outfit's actions....I would be asking Pilatus to give me the details of their corporate charitable giving for the past few years. Perhaps they do this on a regular basis and this is not a one off.
Also noted Agusta-Westland partnered with Ornge in a $250,000 Endowment Fund for Aboriginal Students at Confederation College.
Nice of these Aerospace companies to support their customers this way. All very Arms Length transactions I am sure.
Last edited by SASless; 26th Dec 2011 at 00:41.
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EMS a139
I disagree,the 139 is used by state in this countries who are ready to spend the money for a multipurpose aircraft doing EMS,Police,SAR,etc.The operating cost is crazy there is way better way to use an EMS aircraft who do not have unlimited funding. The Italian use it for EMS,but I don't know how they manage the finance.
The A was removed to differentiate the name with those existing,but some are saying it is for .....accountability....
The A was removed to differentiate the name with those existing,but some are saying it is for .....
accountability....