Is this an accident waiting to happen?

[chopjock]

TTB

The bottom line is that this pilot (sic) unnecessarily flew out of limits, both the heli and seemingly his own. How could anyone condone it

He flew over MCP throughout, exceeded bank angles and (somehow) caused the low rpm light to illuminate. His flight was dangerous and just because he hasn't had an accident to date doesn't mean this is acceptable flying; what an absurd argument.

What is the yellow arc for on the MAP gauge? looked like the needle was in the yellow to me and nowhere near the red line and how can you tell what the bank angles were from a hand held video camera?

[XV666]

chopjock,

Along with nigelh, you seem to be defending the indefensible

how can you tell what the bank angles were from a hand held video camera?

there's this nifty little gauge called an AH (that's pilot shorthand for an Artificial Horizon) which shows neat little things like the amount of bank that the aircraft is doing. Pretty close to 90 degrees here and there in the video

Could it be because he is flying the aircraft within it's limitations and his ability.
Some people like to be thrown around during a pleasure flight.

The limitations which prohibit pushovers? Watch at about 2:50, where the beads dangling on the compass go weightless and almost disappear off the top of frame. As a non pilot, you may like to research mast bumping and the catastrophic consequences of such a manouevre.

Then try to preach on a Professional Pilot's forum that such actions are both acceptable, and desired by 'some people'

[chopjock]

heli,
In my first post I said

Negative G push over? now if that was true I would agree

With regard to bank angle, where in the handbook does it state the angle of bank limitations?

As a non pilot, you may like to research mast bumping and the catastrophic consequences of such a manouevre.

Then try to preach on a Professional Pilot's forum that such actions are both acceptable, and desired by 'some people'

I am a pilot with over 2000 hrs, mostly in the avoid curve and I am not preaching.
I have not seen any limitations exceeded in this video.
The MAP is rated to 26 inches for 5 mins, the whole flight was less than that!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

here's this nifty little gauge called an AH (that's pilot shorthand for an Artificial Horizon)

chop chop does not need to use these when the only thing he fly is a remote controlled helicopter......

[chopjock]

chop chop does not need to use these when the only thing he fly is a remote controlled helicopter.....

Ha Ha, you are half right though. When in the avoid curve in vfr conditions I don't need the AH.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

if you look at the the yellow and red line in the pic and then look at the vid it's about the 2 o'clock position. Now that is over the limits.

Choppy just to let you know that is what the inside of a helicopter looks like. I have included a pic that of what yours looks like to comparison

[nigelh]

Heli ...where do i condone it ??
I dont do neg g in any helicopter and def not in a teetering head .
I dont fly outside engine limits .
I personally would not feel safe with this pilot in this machine .
Happy ?

[mhale71]

Flight manual States no aerobatic flight, which is flight above a bank angle of 60* or any abrupt inputs not necessary to the flight, i didnt see any other aircraft he was trying to dodge so hes either hallucinating or hooning.

MAP limits change depending on the weather, and have to be worked out at the beggining of the flight, theyre not always 26", and he goes way over that in the video.

I might also mention that you notice a roll to the right at about the 3 minute mark (while he is diving) this is incipient to mast bumping, if you watch his cyclic you see he counters this with a quick left cyclic which doesnt do anything until he pulls back on the stick. I think this is an excellent video to show a few students regarding several things they might regard as 'concepts' rather then guarantees . The left cyclic shows that this pilots training is totally inadequate and i wouldnt be surprised if he doesnt think he did anything wrong the whole flight.

Doors off + no seatbelt + low G = head >desk

also vne doors off = 100kts, clearly exceeded

[chopjock]

mhale71

MAP limits change depending on the weather, and have to be worked out at the beggining of the flight, theyre not always 26", and he goes way over that in the video.

If you show me where in this video the MAP gauge read way over 26" I will admit I am wrong and go away.

If we assume it's a hot day and the variable MCP is 23.2 ", then add the extra 2.8" 5 minute rating, that gives up to 26" available for up to 5 minutes.
Since the whole flight was less then five minutes, that is not over the limit.
Also I never said I condone it either.

Although I concede now it did go over 100Kts, so yes that was beyond limits.

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by chopjock

that gives up to 26" available for up to 5 minutes.
Since the whole flight was less then five minutes, that is not over the limit.
Also I never said I condone it either.

I don't think that you understand the philosophy behind the '5 minute TAKE OFF' limit.

Which, frankly, doesn't surprise me.

[XV666]

Originally Posted by chopjock

I have not seen any limitations exceeded in this video.

There are none so blind as those who will not see

Maybe have another look:

2:50, push over (contrary to section 2 Flight and Maneuver Limitations P2-5) with definite negative G indications (floating beads). See also SN-11

3:50, MAP exceeding limits (into red arc) for sustained period.

Throughout the video: MAP into Take Off Power limit when in cruise (yellow arc).

Originally Posted by chopjock

the MAP is rated to 26 inches for 5 mins

That's for take off, goose! You remind me of the Canuck I was partnered with when I found out the reason the engine was cactus was because he'd been pulling 2.5min power for 2.5 minutes, backing off for 10 seconds and starting all over again..and again..and again. Those 2000 hours of yours must have been really mechanically sympathetic

Altitude: SN-19, low flying over water: read it sometime?

c4:00 onward, exceeding 60° bank, approaching 90°. What was that about Aerobatic Flight Prohibited?



That'll do to be going on with

[XV666]

Originally Posted by nigelh

Heli ...where do i condone it ??
I dont do neg g in any helicopter and def not in a teetering head .
I dont fly outside engine limits .
I personally would not feel safe with this pilot in this machine .
Happy ?

Hmmmmmmmmm

Originally Posted by nigelh

The rest is not in itself dangerous , other than boing in a robinson .. (maybe turn was a bit steep but cant prove from a video)

[toptobottom]

chopjock


I agree, it is difficult to read the spinning AH and therefore determine the angle of bank, so here's an image that gives us a clue. I'd say that's about 80 degrees?




The Flight and Manouvre limitations in the POH states:

• Aerobatic flight prohibited.
• Low-G cyclic pushovers prohibited.
• Avoid abrupt control inputs. They produce high fatigue stresses and could lead to a premature and catastrophic failure of a critical component.

He does all of these..

It also states:

• No loose items allowed in the cabin during doors off flight.
• Do not exceed 100 KIAS when operating at power above MCP
• Do not exceed 100 KIAS with any door(s) removed.

Colour code for instrument markings (I can't believe I'm even typing this...).

Green : Normal operating range (maybe as he was flying so abnormally, he thought this wouldn't apply?!)
Yellow: Precautionary or special operating procedure range.
Red: Indicates operating limits. Pointer shoulkd not enter red during normal operation.

MCP at 30 degrees temp at sea level would be 23.1 plus 2.8 "for max power take off" i.e. not normal operation. He goes into the red at least once.

Why on earth would anyone think this clip shows a responsible and normal flight within R44 limits

[chopjock]

Ok I may have been mistaken. I never said it was a responsible and normal flight. I was inferring that most of you were getting on the band wagon and over exaggerating almost everything.

[XV666]

Originally Posted by chopjock

Ok I may have been mistaken. I never said it was a responsible and normal flight. I was inferring that most of you were getting on the band wagon and over exaggerating almost everything.

And let's have a look at those comments where you 'never said it was a responsible and normal flight

Funny how most of you on this thread are yes men and do not see another point of view, you only want to see what you want to see.
If this was indeed a raving nutter and has been doing this a lot, then how come he has not had an accident yet?
Could it be because he is flying the aircraft within it's limitations and his ability.
Some people like to be thrown around during a pleasure flight.

and

Infact the pilot appeared very experienced and skillful to me. He minimised the take off and landing path over the few people on the beach, aparently he had been doing it all day and no problems with the machine or his skill. AH on the pi55, so what?. Low RRPM going off occasionally, so what? perhaps the clutch light flashed a few times too. SO WHAT? Negative G push over? now if that was true I would agree but I did not see any, looked all positive G to me.

Not to forget

I have not seen any limitations exceeded in this video.

But the most disturbing claim, for a PPL(H) on H500's (and remote control helicopters)

I am a pilot with over 2000 hrs, mostly in the avoid curve and I am not preaching.

but there is hope: if he keeps to his promise

If you show me where in this video the MAP gauge read way over 26" I will admit I am wrong and go away.

[nigelh]

Heli . you really do need to learn to read
I would not fly with him because i didnt feel he was a safe pilot.. beacause of the warning lights and push overs ...that is plenty for me !!!. The rest is not in itself dangerous , other than boing in a robinson .. ( maybe turn was a bit steep but cant prove from a video ) I would also agree that no loose clothing is a must with doors off .

Do you still maintain that i am condoning it !!
Bored now ...he is not worth the trouble and i consider any flight in a robinson as risky anyway even without these manoevres !!

[Thomas coupling]

I gues that technically this should be subject of its own thread, but I can't be a**ed.
Instead, I'll mention it here as this thread is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say:

This thread started off quite rightly with an individual questioning a pilot with a PROFESSIONAL licence, busting limits. Very shortly thereafter, it appears to have been torpedoed by a PPL who knows very very little about the trade in general never mind anything about a CPL/ATPL doing his job incorrectly.

Other PPL's have commented causing additional distractions. This even leads to arguments breaking out about who has the biggest chopper!! I have noticed this across several threads inside "rotorheads". (The MW crash being the perfect example).

My question is...pprune specifically categorises the PPL and the professional pilot as two separate entities:

Wannabes Forums
Forums for those aspiring to join our fraternity of professional aviators with the best view in the house. Please use the Private Flying forum for initial PPL issues and anything not connected with professional licences.

and:

Rotorheads A haven for professional helicopter pilots to discuss the things that affect them.

.

Should this be strictly adhered to, or is it time for a review by Pprune re: definitions?

Many of us (CPL's and ATPL's) seem to spend an inordinate amount of time going over old ground explaining principles of flight / flight safety / aerodynamics / airmanship issues time and time again, instead of concentrating on the main topic.

I agree, there is always room for PPL's to pop in now and again and observe, possibly even offer the odd comment but on occasion like this thread here with chopjock et al, it can detract significantly from enjoying the main course!!
Comments? (professional pilots only please )

[Epiphany]

Good point TC. It is a real pity that some PPL's with a chip on their shoulders muddy the waters for other PPL's who are keen to learn and contribute to the forum.

Maybe it is a sign of the times or the fact that many of us came through the military training system. If I were a beginner/learner/amateur/apprentice in any profession or skill I would not dream of trying to tell the professionals/skilled/qualified how to do their jobs. 'Ears open, trap closed, listen and learn' was drummed into me.

I wonder if some of the PPL contributors to this particular thread would be quite so vocal without the anonymity provided and absence of public ridicule?

I have been flying for 30 years, have 10,000 helicopter hours, an ATPL(H), 14 different type ratings and have flown most types of helicopter operations in many part of the world. I feel that gives me the right to comment on many topics on Rotorheads - but only those I have direct experience of.

I also have a PPL(A) but you won't find me commenting on any airline forum telling A380 Captains how to fly - or telling a radio controlled UAV helicopter 'pilot' how to fly his model - because I have no frigging idea.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

That's ok Epiphany, neither have most Airbus pilots.

[Readyornot]

Lets put this into context....

(Hypothetically) You get on your British Airways flight, in the trusted hands of a pilot. Whilst taking off along the runway he decides he fancies a change of scenery and goes for the grass strip option, then climbs to 1,000ft and has a go at a stall turn, after then levelling off at 20ft he orders a hostess to release the main passenger door because it's too hot, he turns off the seatbelt sign and goes for a 90 degree left bank, then carries on to your destination with much of the same.

If this actually happened it would be on the front page of every paper, the pilot would be in prison and the company would be in the bin. Why when it happens in the rotary world, is it a completely different story?