Is this an accident waiting to happen?
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Just quietly, you guys who are shooting down PPL's do realise don't you that a lot of them are ex CPL/ATPL (with many thousands of hours of professional flying in their logbooks) but no longer hold these licenses for medical or other reasons?
I realise you are probably referring to PPL's who have never held one of those licenses but please don't throw all PPL's in the same putrid pool.
Is their input any less valuable? I think not. The point was made that 'professional' is an attitude. I hope I'm not the only one who agrees. It isn't the license that makes one professional, as this video (along with too many others) so vividly shows.
I realise you are probably referring to PPL's who have never held one of those licenses but please don't throw all PPL's in the same putrid pool.
Is their input any less valuable? I think not. The point was made that 'professional' is an attitude. I hope I'm not the only one who agrees. It isn't the license that makes one professional, as this video (along with too many others) so vividly shows.
Please dont ruin this by being reasonable and sensible ...it is utterly unpprunish and no fun . You HAVE to slag someone off here or havent you got that yet 
All civvy ppl,s are badly trained , dangerous and fly robbos ...fact .
All civvy ppl,s are badly trained , dangerous and fly robbos ...fact .
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It was waaay too subtle for me Whirls. I suppose I should now downgrade my vastly superior ATPL(H) for one of those dodgy PPL things and join the great unwashed and uninformed as self-flagellation? Well - just for a short time.
Hovering AND talking
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self-flagellation?
Cheers
Whirls
Oh dear, I knew this would happen. The subject matter of this thread has been blown off course.
It, atleast has stirred some people into action, some who have been lying in the weeds for years and decided to flicker into life
Good to see.
But reversethrottle is right, there are PPL's and there are PPL's. I should have been more succinct, thank you reversethrottle.
I was targetting the ab initio PPL's who have NEVER held a professional licence.
No matter how many hours they have, it is the equivalent of A levels compared to a PhD in aviation. Of course there are bad apples in all fraternity's, but on the whole, the CPL's onward have a broader understanding of aviation and all that it encompasses. Met, human factors, law, aeodynamics etc.
They are not a better person for it, but they are wiser in the art.
There are PPL's out there who simply want to fly for leisure and have no intention of going through the pain barrier of a CPL(IR) etc. That's is perfectly acceptable, but they have to understand, that their level of knowledge is at best a voluntary level and not compulsory as required by the CAA for CPL standards. Invariably the CPL doesn't stay that way for too long, they move to the next level which cannot be short circuited - ATPL. To achieve this standard, the main ingredient is experience under discipline, which separates the similarly experienced PPL who has simply amassed their thousand+ hours pleasure flying the same routines and inevitably on sunny days too.
To those PPL's out there who were previously professional pilots and to those abo's who wish to learn - apologies - join the debate, but I think you'll notice the detractors are often the ones who are the puddle jumpers popping in to air their inadequacies. If this causes consternation amongst the great unwashed, can i suggest you start a fresh thread and leave this one to run its course?
It, atleast has stirred some people into action, some who have been lying in the weeds for years and decided to flicker into life
Good to see.
But reversethrottle is right, there are PPL's and there are PPL's. I should have been more succinct, thank you reversethrottle.
I was targetting the ab initio PPL's who have NEVER held a professional licence.
No matter how many hours they have, it is the equivalent of A levels compared to a PhD in aviation. Of course there are bad apples in all fraternity's, but on the whole, the CPL's onward have a broader understanding of aviation and all that it encompasses. Met, human factors, law, aeodynamics etc.
They are not a better person for it, but they are wiser in the art.
There are PPL's out there who simply want to fly for leisure and have no intention of going through the pain barrier of a CPL(IR) etc. That's is perfectly acceptable, but they have to understand, that their level of knowledge is at best a voluntary level and not compulsory as required by the CAA for CPL standards. Invariably the CPL doesn't stay that way for too long, they move to the next level which cannot be short circuited - ATPL. To achieve this standard, the main ingredient is experience under discipline, which separates the similarly experienced PPL who has simply amassed their thousand+ hours pleasure flying the same routines and inevitably on sunny days too.
To those PPL's out there who were previously professional pilots and to those abo's who wish to learn - apologies - join the debate, but I think you'll notice the detractors are often the ones who are the puddle jumpers popping in to air their inadequacies. If this causes consternation amongst the great unwashed, can i suggest you start a fresh thread and leave this one to run its course?
TC you said ... pleasure flying the same routines and inevitably on sunny days too.
I guess you dont live in Yorkshire then
or Scotland I think you will find there are a lot of ppl,s who fly in the same bad weather as the rest of you . And just like the rest of you they learn to judge how bad it needs to be before the bin it . This comes with experience ...nothing else . I dont believe you can learn that from a caa book .
Anyway good to hear an apology from you for your blanket accusation !!
I do accept that the presence of a CP is something ppl,s usually dont have access to and i was very lucky to have Dick Meston as my CP and i still used to call him for advice years after he stopped working with me . ( yes he was Mil !!)
I guess you dont live in Yorkshire then
or Scotland I think you will find there are a lot of ppl,s who fly in the same bad weather as the rest of you . And just like the rest of you they learn to judge how bad it needs to be before the bin it . This comes with experience ...nothing else . I dont believe you can learn that from a caa book .Anyway good to hear an apology from you for your blanket accusation !!
I do accept that the presence of a CP is something ppl,s usually dont have access to and i was very lucky to have Dick Meston as my CP and i still used to call him for advice years after he stopped working with me . ( yes he was Mil !!)
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Oh boy...if (and I do mean "if") CRAZYBROADSWORD's comment is a genuine question then you chaps in the UK have some serious problems. Epiphany - I'm with you, lets give Nigelh a chance to tackle this one. This thread is getting more hilarious by the day.
TC - You're welcome.
TC - You're welcome.
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Well what do you expect - I mean aren't all those PPL type CAA licence holders and not FAA ones?
Seen some horrendous flying by some UK types out here in California...
HTC
Well its a X verse Y that no one mentioned yet!
Seen some horrendous flying by some UK types out here in California...
HTC
Well its a X verse Y that no one mentioned yet!
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reversethrottle
There are many very experienced former CPLs/ATPLs on the forum who have retired for medical or other reasons. There may be a few who are now PPLs, and describe themselves as such, but not "a lot".
H.
Just quietly, you guys who are shooting down PPL's do realise don't you that a lot of them are ex CPL/ATPL (with many thousands of hours of professional flying in their logbooks) but no longer hold these licenses for medical or other reasons?
H.
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Epiphany -
and one of my similar mantras has always been "you have two ears & one mouth - consider using them in that proportion"!
Of course, if translated to a forum such as this, when we have two eyes and ten typing digits - any similarity to "two ears" really needs to be inverted, although quite often isn't on this forum !!
I feel we should also refer honourable members to the thread I mentioned earlier - http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/446...iscussion.html as an example of heated, but now cooled, discussion between those who are prepared to learn, those prepared to share their experience, and those who like to spout off - be they experienced or not! As has been mentioned, all are welcome to post, but an element of balance, rather than vitriol, should be exercised.
Defending the indefensible, and living an upright existence at a 40 deg tilt, are all recipes for disaster, IMHO!
'Ears open, trap closed, listen and learn' was drummed into me.
Of course, if translated to a forum such as this, when we have two eyes and ten typing digits - any similarity to "two ears" really needs to be inverted, although quite often isn't on this forum
!! I feel we should also refer honourable members to the thread I mentioned earlier - http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/446...iscussion.html as an example of heated, but now cooled, discussion between those who are prepared to learn, those prepared to share their experience, and those who like to spout off - be they experienced or not! As has been mentioned, all are welcome to post, but an element of balance, rather than vitriol, should be exercised.
Defending the indefensible, and living an upright existence at a 40 deg tilt, are all recipes for disaster, IMHO!
After all this fierce fighting between ATPL, CPL and PPL I would like to get back to the topic itslef, looking more from a technical side at it.
Let's have a look at the single exceedances:
My personal ranking (from lightest to most severe) would be roughly as follows:
- Flying barefoot: I would not consider that exceedingly dangerous, although it is probably not a very good idea. At least it does not improve the personal crashworthiness. Wearing Flip-Flops would definitely be worse...
- Exceeding bank angle: Probably the most visible and spectacular excedance but from a purely technical side I would not consider it extremely dangerous. He did keep MAP in a reasonable range while doing so, which means neither losing RRPM nor unloading the disc, just trading altitude for bank. Enough altitude available, no obstacles, good visibility, therefore probably also not too dangerous in the given case.
- Flying a SE Piston w/o floats over water outside gliderange to shore:
Again not a very good idea, in the particular case somewhat alleviated by warm water and doors off, so people should have a reasonable chance of exiting the Helo and swimming to shore.
- Low RRPM Horn going off: In this particular instance maybe not that critical (reason for it being a bit unclear and only briefly), otherwise extremely dangerous in a Robbie (and any other Helo for that matter)
- Exceeding 100kts with doors off: If not exceeding by a big margin and in calm weather conditions this should not cause an immediate accident, however due to increased vibration it will not do the machine any good.
- Fly with doors open, having unsecure items in the cabin (e.g. loose hats): Not a good idea: Flying w/o tailrotor is no fun, especially when no suitable AR site is available.
- Exceeding MAP: Not necessarily instantly dangerous but definitely not doing the engine any good. The next unsuspecting pilot (and passengers) may have to pay the price...
- Doing a Pushover: This is for me really the highlight of these 5 minutes.
Doing this in a teetering Rotor Heli (especially a Robbie with low inertia Fuselage and Rotor, which can tilt violently when unloaded) I consider this attempted suicide.
Each single of those excedance (with the exception of the last one which can be instantly fatal) is perhaps not extremely dangerous, but doing all this in less than 5 minutes is simply amazing. Most responsible pilots will not accumulate this list of exceedances in their whole flying career....
So, to sum my personal take on this piece of art up:
This pilot will sooner or later appear in one of the famous databases.
Let's have a look at the single exceedances:
My personal ranking (from lightest to most severe) would be roughly as follows:
- Flying barefoot: I would not consider that exceedingly dangerous, although it is probably not a very good idea. At least it does not improve the personal crashworthiness. Wearing Flip-Flops would definitely be worse...
- Exceeding bank angle: Probably the most visible and spectacular excedance but from a purely technical side I would not consider it extremely dangerous. He did keep MAP in a reasonable range while doing so, which means neither losing RRPM nor unloading the disc, just trading altitude for bank. Enough altitude available, no obstacles, good visibility, therefore probably also not too dangerous in the given case.
- Flying a SE Piston w/o floats over water outside gliderange to shore:
Again not a very good idea, in the particular case somewhat alleviated by warm water and doors off, so people should have a reasonable chance of exiting the Helo and swimming to shore.
- Low RRPM Horn going off: In this particular instance maybe not that critical (reason for it being a bit unclear and only briefly), otherwise extremely dangerous in a Robbie (and any other Helo for that matter)
- Exceeding 100kts with doors off: If not exceeding by a big margin and in calm weather conditions this should not cause an immediate accident, however due to increased vibration it will not do the machine any good.
- Fly with doors open, having unsecure items in the cabin (e.g. loose hats): Not a good idea: Flying w/o tailrotor is no fun, especially when no suitable AR site is available.
- Exceeding MAP: Not necessarily instantly dangerous but definitely not doing the engine any good. The next unsuspecting pilot (and passengers) may have to pay the price...
- Doing a Pushover: This is for me really the highlight of these 5 minutes.
Doing this in a teetering Rotor Heli (especially a Robbie with low inertia Fuselage and Rotor, which can tilt violently when unloaded) I consider this attempted suicide.
Each single of those excedance (with the exception of the last one which can be instantly fatal) is perhaps not extremely dangerous, but doing all this in less than 5 minutes is simply amazing. Most responsible pilots will not accumulate this list of exceedances in their whole flying career....
So, to sum my personal take on this piece of art up:
This pilot will sooner or later appear in one of the famous databases.
