Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
On the subject of PPl,s personally I have found that quite a few ppl,s standard of flying are well up there with cpl,s and sometimes better . Having a cpl doesn't mean you are better than average in flying skills and there are a lot of ppl,s consistently doing more challenging flying than a lot of cpl taxi drivers ......I would still rather fly with a ppl with 2000 hrs than a cpl with 200 !!!
Is it really all to do with a standard of flying, is it not the attitude to flying that counts?
Another way of looking at it would be that the 2,000hr PPL could well have got into some very bad habits. The 200hr CPL would still be very conciencous, remembering his instructors methods and teachings operators procedures and fear of LoL/employment if he was to make a mistake.
Don't forget there are good and bad in both camps, but I know who I'd rather fly with aswell
Can I just confirm that all flights at night outside controlled airspace are IFR!
I can tell you flying at night in quite severe turbelance on your own in the mountains really concentrates the mind, years ago I would have pressed on, boy I'm glad I didn't !!
29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument
Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest
obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level
and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Quadrantal rule and semi-circular rule
30 (1) Subject to paragraph (2), in order to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules, an
aircraft when in level flight above 3000 feet above mean sea level or above the
appropriate transition altitude, whichever is the higher, shall be flown at a level
appropriate to its magnetic track, in accordance with the appropriate Table set forth
in this rule
At night in the mountains!!!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have to agree with the latest post's about Mr Thomas Coupling...he really is coming across as a "Total C..t"......not only is he happy to spout total bollocks on this thread but has even managed to open his big mouth on Mark's condolence thread.....I for one am sure I dont know him and hopefully never will!!
Silsoe......Maybe in Tailboom's explanation the following exception prevailed.
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
Silsoe......Maybe in Tailboom's explanation the following exception prevailed.
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
...and also perhaps the cociss.
However, how long is an approach to land?
Sounds like he was flying in the mountains and then decided to land! Slightly different than being below a minimum height ... 'in order to land'.
However, how long is an approach to land?
I enjoy flying at night but I've had a few tense moments recently which I havn't enjoyed, I decided to land a R44 I was flying home in at one of my palls houses after I'd picked up a 45knt head wind in the mountains in South Wales the other night,
Chill out lads.
I tried to keep it short re the regs for flying in mountains at night because this isn't the thread to talk about it - or so I thought.
Silsoe has done the deed for me:[Thanks SS].
To fly "mountainous terrain" (definition of mountains in the UK: 2000 AMSL) at night you have to comply with IFR regs number 29 (>1000' within 5NM). It is advised that this be increased to 2000' near peaks reaching 3000'.
That means that normally in the UK you can't fly in amongst the mountains at night. So, as I said - he must or should be flying OVER the fu**ing mountains. If he was flying IN the mountains he was illegal....OK everybody. Anyone disagree?? (toptobottom??).
Fisbangwuzzy: Grow up and stop wingeing....look at the facts for once.
Can we return to thread now.............................................
I tried to keep it short re the regs for flying in mountains at night because this isn't the thread to talk about it - or so I thought.
Silsoe has done the deed for me:[Thanks SS].
To fly "mountainous terrain" (definition of mountains in the UK: 2000 AMSL) at night you have to comply with IFR regs number 29 (>1000' within 5NM). It is advised that this be increased to 2000' near peaks reaching 3000'.
That means that normally in the UK you can't fly in amongst the mountains at night. So, as I said - he must or should be flying OVER the fu**ing mountains. If he was flying IN the mountains he was illegal....OK everybody. Anyone disagree?? (toptobottom??).
Fisbangwuzzy: Grow up and stop wingeing....look at the facts for once.
Can we return to thread now.............................................
TC
Your hastily edited original post and now excuses for 'keep[ing] it short' isn't fooling anyone I'm afraid. Also, your attitude and language on this forum are so unprofessional, I'm not sure you should even be on here - your contribution thus far hasn't added any value, as far as I can see. I enjoy PPRuNe because I enjoy learning from those with more experience than me; I suggest you park your ego, shut your gob and try and do the same.
TTB
Your hastily edited original post and now excuses for 'keep[ing] it short' isn't fooling anyone I'm afraid. Also, your attitude and language on this forum are so unprofessional, I'm not sure you should even be on here - your contribution thus far hasn't added any value, as far as I can see. I enjoy PPRuNe because I enjoy learning from those with more experience than me; I suggest you park your ego, shut your gob and try and do the same.
TTB
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A little light reading.
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa23.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gasil07of2009.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL23.pdf
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...8_P_082_en.pdf
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...6_P_122_en.pdf
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...7_P_100_en.pdf
HELICOPTER FLIGHT IN DEGRADED VISUAL CONDITIONS
VFR-only pilots should seriously consider postponing a night mountain flight until daylight hours, even in good weather.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gasil07of2009.pdf
If you intend venturing into the mountains, obtain guidance from those with considerable experience of such flying in your own type of aviation.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL23.pdf
HOW ACCIDENTS HAPPEN
COMMON SCENARIOS IN A CAA REVIEW:
a) Controlled Flight Into Terrain
In a controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accident the pilot does not lose control, and the aircraft has not failed. They simply fly into the ground, often hills or mountains. The pilots who had fatal CFIT accidents were typically over fifty years old, and very experienced. More than a third were flying in their home base local area, and accidents were not restricted to mountainous regions. Of all CFIT accidents, 82% included unwise reaction to weather conditions (such as continuing to fly into worsening weather) and 64% had not adhered to their MSA (if they had calculated one at all), trying to get below the weather, or hoping to confirm their position. More than a third found out too late that they had made an error in navigation.
COMMON SCENARIOS IN A CAA REVIEW:
a) Controlled Flight Into Terrain
In a controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) accident the pilot does not lose control, and the aircraft has not failed. They simply fly into the ground, often hills or mountains. The pilots who had fatal CFIT accidents were typically over fifty years old, and very experienced. More than a third were flying in their home base local area, and accidents were not restricted to mountainous regions. Of all CFIT accidents, 82% included unwise reaction to weather conditions (such as continuing to fly into worsening weather) and 64% had not adhered to their MSA (if they had calculated one at all), trying to get below the weather, or hoping to confirm their position. More than a third found out too late that they had made an error in navigation.
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...8_P_082_en.pdf
The aim of this Circular is to remind pilots of the basic theory of airflow over high ground, to describe the effect of the airflow on
aircraft in flight and to offer advice on avoiding or minimising the various hazards that may be encountered. This Circular is divided into
three parts accordingly :
Part 1 - Meteorology
Part 2 - Flying Aspects
Part 3 - Advice to Pilots
aircraft in flight and to offer advice on avoiding or minimising the various hazards that may be encountered. This Circular is divided into
three parts accordingly :
Part 1 - Meteorology
Part 2 - Flying Aspects
Part 3 - Advice to Pilots
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...6_P_122_en.pdf
Training in procedures that include all relevant points described above will help promote a healthy 'CFIT Avoidance' attitude. Good crew co-operation - Crew Resource Management (CRM) to use a familiar term - will add value.
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...7_P_100_en.pdf
HELICOPTER FLIGHT IN DEGRADED VISUAL CONDITIONS
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Tailboom;
Are you telling us that as an instructor, your pre-flight met brief didn't tell you about the 45kt winds? What did your pre-flight brief consist of?
I don't know what time of night your flight was, but Cardiff/Swansea/Bristol/Caernarfon would have given you enough weather information in order to make a sensible descision.
No met facilities at Caernarfon I hear you say, well a lot of smaller airfields have automated syatems 24/7, such as Caernarfon Airport Weather
or if the winds were a concern Wind Map - Britain Observations
Are you telling us that as an instructor, your pre-flight met brief didn't tell you about the 45kt winds? What did your pre-flight brief consist of?
I don't know what time of night your flight was, but Cardiff/Swansea/Bristol/Caernarfon would have given you enough weather information in order to make a sensible descision.
No met facilities at Caernarfon I hear you say, well a lot of smaller airfields have automated syatems 24/7, such as Caernarfon Airport Weather
or if the winds were a concern Wind Map - Britain Observations
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Can anyone remember the permitted combinations of door removal?
SS - interesting reading your post #112 - thanks. "Over 50, very experienced and in the local area'. Familiarity (and over confidence) breeds contempt... And you're quite right about IFR rules outside CAS at night - in VMC.
Re Tailboom's story, I wouldn't be too harsh! I don't know what pre-flights he did, but we've all been caught out and IMO he did the right thing and avoided the possibility of becoming another statistic by putting it down.
Re Tailboom's story, I wouldn't be too harsh! I don't know what pre-flights he did, but we've all been caught out and IMO he did the right thing and avoided the possibility of becoming another statistic by putting it down.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
ttb,
That is one scary video!
Interestingly, as Mark mentions Jim Lovell in the vid, Gene Cernan (Last man on the Moon) crashed a helicopter while flying over water. Lovell was chairman of the investigation board.
Cernan's '71 Helo
That is one scary video!
Interestingly, as Mark mentions Jim Lovell in the vid, Gene Cernan (Last man on the Moon) crashed a helicopter while flying over water. Lovell was chairman of the investigation board.
Cernan's '71 Helo
Regarding his 1971 helicopter accident: in later accounts, one of which was written by Cernan himself in an autobiography, it is revealed that Cernan was flying too low and showing off for nearby boaters. Cernan often describes the experience as "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride."
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 22nd Mar 2011 at 13:12.
SS
My definition of 'caught out'? In this context, I'd say suddenly finding myself in an uncomfortable situation I wasn't expecting (for whatever reason). It happens and I don't believe there's a soul amongst us who hasn't been there. The really important things are (i) knowing what the appropriate escape plan is, (ii) escaping successfully (!), (iii) learning from it and (iv) making sure you take all reasonable steps to ensure you don't find yourself in that situation again - unless you're qualified to deal with it.
We don't know why tailboom found himself outside his comfort zone/flying ability, whatever. Maybe the met was wrong? But he did the right thing and survived to share his experience on here. I'm sure he's learned from the experience; he shouldn't be flamed for it!
My definition of 'caught out'? In this context, I'd say suddenly finding myself in an uncomfortable situation I wasn't expecting (for whatever reason). It happens and I don't believe there's a soul amongst us who hasn't been there. The really important things are (i) knowing what the appropriate escape plan is, (ii) escaping successfully (!), (iii) learning from it and (iv) making sure you take all reasonable steps to ensure you don't find yourself in that situation again - unless you're qualified to deal with it.
We don't know why tailboom found himself outside his comfort zone/flying ability, whatever. Maybe the met was wrong? But he did the right thing and survived to share his experience on here. I'm sure he's learned from the experience; he shouldn't be flamed for it!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Fair enough. Sorry I got rid of that post as your vid link is so much more 'interesting' and clear cut!
Just my thought that 45 kt winds not being on the met or not even realising that winds on the way towards the mountains would get more turbulent, is one of surprise.
Just my thought that 45 kt winds not being on the met or not even realising that winds on the way towards the mountains would get more turbulent, is one of surprise.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Better to live a day like a tiger than life as a mouse - Mark Weir
I was wondering... during the paper round (us mere drivers dont get paid as much as the owners here, or so they keep reminding us )... what is the definition, in the eyes of those on this thread, of display flying? (no looking at the CAA website first!)
I was wondering... during the paper round (us mere drivers dont get paid as much as the owners here, or so they keep reminding us
)... what is the definition, in the eyes of those on this thread, of display flying? (no looking at the CAA website first!)
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The rule breaking video;
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Escrick York england
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ss
Yes mark got procecuted by the caa for the para drop
but where in this topic has any one said what licence he held
he could have a DA, he could have a instrument and cpl maybe even a atpl or just a night rating , one thing for sure l he was not a pilot with HM gov thats obvious otherwise he couldnt do any wrong in your eyes
but one thing he definately was , a very experienced mountain helicopter pilot with thousands of hours, for the last 10 years or so he has flown from home to work daily in the mountains
yes maybe a crm course may have saved his life but that didnt help the few cpls that flew high profile people over the last few years that have bought it no names but we all know who they were
just because he is a helicopter owner you have assumed he is a PPL unfortunately mark isnt here to stand his corner
i dont know what licence he had therefore i am not going to assume anything
and i am not knocking ex mil either as that would mean i knock my self
he was a pilot that may have made a mistake like any of us
maybe even you
Yes mark got procecuted by the caa for the para drop
but where in this topic has any one said what licence he held
he could have a DA, he could have a instrument and cpl maybe even a atpl or just a night rating , one thing for sure l he was not a pilot with HM gov thats obvious otherwise he couldnt do any wrong in your eyes
but one thing he definately was , a very experienced mountain helicopter pilot with thousands of hours, for the last 10 years or so he has flown from home to work daily in the mountains
yes maybe a crm course may have saved his life but that didnt help the few cpls that flew high profile people over the last few years that have bought it no names but we all know who they were
just because he is a helicopter owner you have assumed he is a PPL unfortunately mark isnt here to stand his corner
i dont know what licence he had therefore i am not going to assume anything
and i am not knocking ex mil either as that would mean i knock my self
he was a pilot that may have made a mistake like any of us
maybe even you
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
MD,
I don't think you'll find me having a go at PPL's and you will not find me on any one side in the mil-civ debate. I haven't even assumed that Mark was a PPL holder, so I don't know what that post is all about.
I think you have assumed that I have assumed all these things, which I haven't.
If you read fishbangs earlier post about assumption, you seem to have fallen into the 'making an ass out of yourself' catagory
I don't think you'll find me having a go at PPL's and you will not find me on any one side in the mil-civ debate. I haven't even assumed that Mark was a PPL holder, so I don't know what that post is all about.
I think you have assumed that I have assumed all these things, which I haven't.
If you read fishbangs earlier post about assumption, you seem to have fallen into the 'making an ass out of yourself' catagory
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No-one knows (yet) what the cause of this tragedy was.
Some have sprung to Mark's defence out of their personal knowledge of him as an extremely experienced pilot, suggesting that mechanical failure could have been the cause, (it could), while others have suggested that the weather is more likely to have been the main factor. (Which it could have).
Of course, had there been a mechanical failure or similar problem, then poor visibility and bad weather conditions might only exacerbate the situation, compared to the same problem in gin clear weather.
We just don't KNOW ( yet ) what went wrong, but one thing is clear, and that is that IF the decision had been made NOT to fly, then the aircraft would not have crashed.
With hindsight it is all to easy to make such a statement after the event. I didn't know Mark but after seeing the wreckage up close, I was reminded of another CRM training course quote :
"I'd rather be on the ground wishing I were flying, than be flying and wishing I were on the ground."
A good one to think of before raising the pole.
RIP
Coconutty
Some have sprung to Mark's defence out of their personal knowledge of him as an extremely experienced pilot, suggesting that mechanical failure could have been the cause, (it could), while others have suggested that the weather is more likely to have been the main factor. (Which it could have).
Of course, had there been a mechanical failure or similar problem, then poor visibility and bad weather conditions might only exacerbate the situation, compared to the same problem in gin clear weather.
We just don't KNOW ( yet ) what went wrong, but one thing is clear, and that is that IF the decision had been made NOT to fly, then the aircraft would not have crashed.
With hindsight it is all to easy to make such a statement after the event. I didn't know Mark but after seeing the wreckage up close, I was reminded of another CRM training course quote :
"I'd rather be on the ground wishing I were flying, than be flying and wishing I were on the ground."
A good one to think of before raising the pole.
RIP
Coconutty
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Silsoe...the only person's making an ass on this forum are yourself and Mr T coupling....both of you with constant attempts at trying to put Mark down....your constant posting's of utube clips of what IN YOUR EYES are dangerous manouver's and practice's......Of course I guess you have never made a mistake in all your life as being Ex mil you guys dont do that of course!!!.... I really am now getting fed up with your constant drivel as it real has no bearing on any debate towards air safety.