The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Chapabeefer: perleeeeze....for the sake of humanity...don't go back down that old, wornout, sanctimonious route again.. Can we move along in a progressive manner, please......paracetamol please? 
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Thomas Coupling,
Thank you for your erudite, incisive and considered reply
.
Which part of my post is it that causes you difficulty?
Do you disagree that the RAF have been carrying out SAR for years and years?
Do you disagree that RAF winchmen have saved thousands of lives, and that doctors have praised them for doing for so?
Do you believe that a life saving service, recognized as the best of it's kind, can be scrapped without consequence to life?
You have taken issue with my post. Please, which statement of mine is factually incorrect? I await your expert response.
Or... - are you simply one of those who will benefit from the civilianisation of SAR, and therefore deny the truth in order to further your own ends?
A reasoned, exacting and factual reply is required (although not expected)
Good day to you.
Thank you for your erudite, incisive and considered reply
.Which part of my post is it that causes you difficulty?
Do you disagree that the RAF have been carrying out SAR for years and years?
Do you disagree that RAF winchmen have saved thousands of lives, and that doctors have praised them for doing for so?
Do you believe that a life saving service, recognized as the best of it's kind, can be scrapped without consequence to life?
You have taken issue with my post. Please, which statement of mine is factually incorrect? I await your expert response.
Or... - are you simply one of those who will benefit from the civilianisation of SAR, and therefore deny the truth in order to further your own ends?
A reasoned, exacting and factual reply is required (although not expected)
Good day to you.
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In a LOT of years in RAF SAR, I saw crewmen save thousands of lives
I only hope when I have flown a LOT of SAR hours I will have helped saved thousands of lives too but to date I reckon about <5% of jobs are actually life saving.
Last edited by Flounder; 1st Apr 2012 at 21:59.
"recognized as the best of it's kind"
Losers are always whining about the best, winners go home and...........
To say something is the best needs a bit of backing up with facts.... so feel free to give the facts (not expecting any).
....and i think you will find we will all benefit from the civilianisation as the crews will have "better" (there is that word again)" equipment to carry out there jobs....
Since you wanted to go round this point yet again! Round and round it goes.... where it stops.... oh thats right we do know where it stops...
Losers are always whining about the best, winners go home and...........
To say something is the best needs a bit of backing up with facts.... so feel free to give the facts (not expecting any).
....and i think you will find we will all benefit from the civilianisation as the crews will have "better" (there is that word again)" equipment to carry out there jobs....
Since you wanted to go round this point yet again! Round and round it goes.... where it stops.... oh thats right we do know where it stops...
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Chopabeefer should be aware that SAR operations have been conducted by many and varied organisations over the years and are not the exclusive property of the RAF. The late Alan Bristow set the bar at an astonishingly high level when he rescued wounded French troops in Indo China in a Hiller in the 1950`s, gaining the Legion d`Honeur for his efforts. All three services have been involved in the evolution of techniques and myriad civilian companies have taken advantage of military expertise to provide local services as and when requiired, such as Management Aviation, North Scottish, Bond, Bristow, British Airways, BEAS, CHC, BIH to mention but a few.
It is about time the Crabs stopped working themselves up to orgasm over ownership of bragging rights for SAR and acknowledged that the new world of SAR is here to stay, crewed by professionals front and back seat who may well come from different backgrounds, not necessarily military.
Finally, never lose sight of who it was who taught the RAF to fly the Sea King in the first place, it was the RN, I know cos I was there!
It is about time the Crabs stopped working themselves up to orgasm over ownership of bragging rights for SAR and acknowledged that the new world of SAR is here to stay, crewed by professionals front and back seat who may well come from different backgrounds, not necessarily military.
Finally, never lose sight of who it was who taught the RAF to fly the Sea King in the first place, it was the RN, I know cos I was there!
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You may have helped teach the first RAF crews how to fly the Sea King Snarlie, but insinuating you taught them how to do SAR would be pushing it a bit. Crabtu (RAF Sea King Training Unit), while under naval command was a joint unit with a syllabus blending RN Sea King type experience with RAF SAR knowledge. After the first 2 years and for the next 32, RAF Sea King training moved on as as an exclusively Crab affair. So whatever the truth of your main point about general SAR development, I am afraid your RN point falters after the first fence.
Agree about your broader point though - The Crab SAR boys maybe good but hey, much has happened elsewhere in the UK SAR scene over the last 50 years. Didn't Bristow introduce FLIR first? - Oh yes, so they did!
Agree about your broader point though - The Crab SAR boys maybe good but hey, much has happened elsewhere in the UK SAR scene over the last 50 years. Didn't Bristow introduce FLIR first? - Oh yes, so they did!
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Beware hyperbole
I always bristle when I hear or read about someone leading off about saving lives. There are a number of organisations that are very quick to wrap up there efforts using the 'saved lives' title but those of us that work or have worked in that part of the business (SAR, HEMS, Police) know the reality is that we are for the most part one element in a team of people who contribute to the saving of life. Those occasions when you can put your hand on your heart and say "we/I saved that persons life today" are few and far between.
You or your crew may have provided the critical stabilising care that gave the casualty the best chance of survival or maybe you removed them to a more secure location but we should not forget that the treatment provided by the doctors and surgeons also counts, as does the TLC in the ICU (not to mention the plethora of support staff that put you in a position to do your job).
Over-stating your efforts should be done with care.
G.
You or your crew may have provided the critical stabilising care that gave the casualty the best chance of survival or maybe you removed them to a more secure location but we should not forget that the treatment provided by the doctors and surgeons also counts, as does the TLC in the ICU (not to mention the plethora of support staff that put you in a position to do your job).
Over-stating your efforts should be done with care.
G.
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 2nd Apr 2012 at 08:03. Reason: additional info
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erhmmmm....
........fully automated auto hover - I seem to remember having that in my Sea King in 1970 and if you leave out the aux hover trim then my Wessex 3 had full-auto hover in 1969 and was around a while before that.
G.
G.
Chopabeefer - I think you have been suitably chastised re your post. Go and stand over there in the corner for causing a near riot in the classroom!
The rest of you get on with your work and concentrate on the job in hand which is Civvy SAR for the Uk i.a.w. European legislation. Who the players might be and how they are going to do it (especially in the remaining time frame!)
Honestly...............
The rest of you get on with your work and concentrate on the job in hand which is Civvy SAR for the Uk i.a.w. European legislation. Who the players might be and how they are going to do it (especially in the remaining time frame!)
Honestly...............
I'm not sure when Bristow started FLIR SAR ops, but the NSCA (Vic) had civil FLIR use somewhere around 1982-83, IIRC.......
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I think the points made about LN450 and Bristow's FLIR were made in direct reference to UK SAR (and in the LN450 case - to the first use of the coupled auto pilot for SAR under UK CAA certification). There is no doubt that other military ac had coupled AFCS's before that but thats not quite the point.
Fully concur with Geoffers' and TC's points though!
Fully concur with Geoffers' and TC's points though!
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...and my Wessex 1 had full auto hover long before that, although the transition down and up needed a bit of encouragement from the pilot in terms of radalt tweaking.
As for Tallsar, if you read my post closely you will note that nowhere did I imply that I had taught the Crabs SAR, everyone knows you can tell`em but you can`t tell`em much. Suffice it to say that RN Sea KIngs were practising night SAR including night live lifts when the Crabs were still stumbling about in Wessex 2`s.
The p*****g contest between RN and RAF which has been going on since April Fool`s Day 1918 does not play any part in the current discussion about the future of SAR in the UK.
As for Tallsar, if you read my post closely you will note that nowhere did I imply that I had taught the Crabs SAR, everyone knows you can tell`em but you can`t tell`em much. Suffice it to say that RN Sea KIngs were practising night SAR including night live lifts when the Crabs were still stumbling about in Wessex 2`s.
The p*****g contest between RN and RAF which has been going on since April Fool`s Day 1918 does not play any part in the current discussion about the future of SAR in the UK.
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Snarlie - friend.... my post was to ensure the younger members of this thread understood precisely what happened all those years ago. Sadly I can still recall it far too well.
Whether you intended it or not, the tone of your message, along with the short statement about the RN teaching the RAF to fly the Sea king could have been interpreted several ways.
Of course the RN was doing great stuff with the Sea King (and the Belgians and Noggies too!) for quite a few years before the RAF got their hands on some yellow Mk3s - and amongst other things you learned about salt accumulation on compressor discs during prolonged hovering in gales near large vessels!
We learned a lot in those early days from many RN hand me downs, including night low level over water expertise, and from Culdrose bar talk... and were grateful for it... as we were soon to find out. It doesn't change the fact we then took things further, as was inevitable once it was our train set to play with - SAR mountain flying with the Sea King being an early and demanding learning exercise! We learned too that our monthly winch usage was on average some 10 times per cab greater than that of any RN cab at the time...and exposed several key problems with it that the RN experience had yet to fully expose. All in all then a joint effort that has contributed to the SK's continued success in the SAR role, even if the old girl is now well past its sell by date by modern standards. I for one really do hope the future comes sooner rather than later... its well overdue now.
Whether you intended it or not, the tone of your message, along with the short statement about the RN teaching the RAF to fly the Sea king could have been interpreted several ways.
Of course the RN was doing great stuff with the Sea King (and the Belgians and Noggies too!) for quite a few years before the RAF got their hands on some yellow Mk3s - and amongst other things you learned about salt accumulation on compressor discs during prolonged hovering in gales near large vessels!
We learned a lot in those early days from many RN hand me downs, including night low level over water expertise, and from Culdrose bar talk... and were grateful for it... as we were soon to find out. It doesn't change the fact we then took things further, as was inevitable once it was our train set to play with - SAR mountain flying with the Sea King being an early and demanding learning exercise! We learned too that our monthly winch usage was on average some 10 times per cab greater than that of any RN cab at the time...and exposed several key problems with it that the RN experience had yet to fully expose. All in all then a joint effort that has contributed to the SK's continued success in the SAR role, even if the old girl is now well past its sell by date by modern standards. I for one really do hope the future comes sooner rather than later... its well overdue now.
Of course the RN was doing great stuff with the Sea King (and the Belgians and Noggies too!) for quite a few years before the RAF got their hands on some yellow Mk3s - and amongst other things you learned about salt accumulation on compressor discs during prolonged hovering in gales near large vessels!
Apologies for the OT rambling......
