EC120
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Is it true that the EC120 has lead weights in the tailboom for weight and balance purposes?.
I heard it was originally designed as a miltary aircraft, and in order to get the C of G working for civil use they had to add weights, hence the payload issues people have with it.
Is this true?
<
Probably require the lead after removing the guns from the tailboom.
Is it true that the EC120 has lead weights in the tailboom for weight and balance purposes?.
I heard it was originally designed as a miltary aircraft, and in order to get the C of G working for civil use they had to add weights, hence the payload issues people have with it.
Is this true?
<
Probably require the lead after removing the guns from the tailboom.
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Yes it has extra weights in the tail boom. Without it the C of G is too far fwd so 2 x 90kg guys up front and two lady pax means you are in trouble. With the battery moved back plus the lead = no problem.
The tail boom weights are not that heavy so don't affect pax capacity and only small fuel drop. Way out there at the back of the boom they have the desired effect through the arm not mass.
Mine is floated and empty weight is 1126kg, MTOW 1715kg so you do the math. She can hold 315kg fuel, 5 people and lots of luggage - just not all at the same time. Take the floats off = 36kg more payload!
The tail boom weights are not that heavy so don't affect pax capacity and only small fuel drop. Way out there at the back of the boom they have the desired effect through the arm not mass.
Mine is floated and empty weight is 1126kg, MTOW 1715kg so you do the math. She can hold 315kg fuel, 5 people and lots of luggage - just not all at the same time. Take the floats off = 36kg more payload!
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G'day John (and others), this is a very interesting read for me, as I am (too) looking to upgrade my R44 Raven II (great machine) for something that can take 4 adults (2 x 90kg and 2 x 70kg), 2 sets of golf sticks, and overnight bags & (!) full fuel. We live in Australia...it's a big place.
I have been lucky enough to fly the new R66 (it is very nice). And have flown quite a lot of hours in EC120B, and flown Jetrangers / Squirrels and (out of my price range) A109 Grand.
My thoughts for a new aquistion have narrowed to EC120B, AS350B2 (B3, sure, if the stock market goes up dramatically !) or R66. But of course, all of these machines have positives & negatives.
The EC120B is really well made, great detail and superb to fly. It is (or the one I flew ? It was new - 2 years ago.) underpowered, and has tail rotor authority problems - or my right leg is simply not long enough on approach to a hover ?!
Squirrels are fantastic workhorses - but agricultural...even with the exec fitout.
R66 - unproven, cool to fly (even for the 20 minutes or so), doesn't look as cool as EC120B.
My pick would be the EC120 (C ?) - I have read elsewhere that EC have listened to the complaints about the 120B and will introduce a new version with more power and a FADEC. Does anyone have any details on that ?
Anyway - great reading - I wish the choice was a bit clearer or easier !
Any good information would be greatly appreciated.
Arrrj
I have been lucky enough to fly the new R66 (it is very nice). And have flown quite a lot of hours in EC120B, and flown Jetrangers / Squirrels and (out of my price range) A109 Grand.
My thoughts for a new aquistion have narrowed to EC120B, AS350B2 (B3, sure, if the stock market goes up dramatically !) or R66. But of course, all of these machines have positives & negatives.
The EC120B is really well made, great detail and superb to fly. It is (or the one I flew ? It was new - 2 years ago.) underpowered, and has tail rotor authority problems - or my right leg is simply not long enough on approach to a hover ?!
Squirrels are fantastic workhorses - but agricultural...even with the exec fitout.
R66 - unproven, cool to fly (even for the 20 minutes or so), doesn't look as cool as EC120B.
My pick would be the EC120 (C ?) - I have read elsewhere that EC have listened to the complaints about the 120B and will introduce a new version with more power and a FADEC. Does anyone have any details on that ?
Anyway - great reading - I wish the choice was a bit clearer or easier !
Any good information would be greatly appreciated.
Arrrj
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R44GUY
PS - the R66 has MUCH better seating in the front (seems like a lounge chair compared to my Raven II) and more room in the back. It's not a EC120B, but (from my initial calcs) will carry more kgs and burn less fuel. I would certainly be considering the R66 for your needs.
I'm seriously in the market for a 120 now 
There are several machines coming up for the 12 year inspection; anyone got any experiences of that? What is a typical cost? Ditto the 15 year inspection on the engine?
John - I'll PM you for a beer and pick your brains
TTB
There are several machines coming up for the 12 year inspection; anyone got any experiences of that? What is a typical cost? Ditto the 15 year inspection on the engine?
John - I'll PM you for a beer and pick your brains
TTB
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I think the first 120's were produced in 1999 (may heve been '98), so 2011 is the first year any will be due a 12 year, so my guess is that there is very little experience of 12yr insp's out there.
I would guess at a 15yr o/h on an Arrius 2F to be somewhere in the region of 200k euros, going from experience of Arrius 1's and Arriels. Not to mention the 6mth TAT.
I would guess at a 15yr o/h on an Arrius 2F to be somewhere in the region of 200k euros, going from experience of Arrius 1's and Arriels. Not to mention the 6mth TAT.
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The next major service point I have reached on my 120:
500 hr inspection £8,450
Several minor anti-corrosion treatments undertaken at the same time, the swashplate re-shimmed, and I swapped one of the radios. (additional cost to above)
Then igniter box failed - £4,806 to replace, done in 2 days.
She is running absolutely smoothly. The current known problems remain:
1. An over-wound clock! (perils of self-fly hire). Need to take out and release the spring, then re-install
2. Occasional fuse-pop on the strobe - will have this investigated for frayed wire then replace if needed
3. Blade tape used to denote the "blue" rotor has come off (replace)
John
500 hr inspection £8,450
Several minor anti-corrosion treatments undertaken at the same time, the swashplate re-shimmed, and I swapped one of the radios. (additional cost to above)
Then igniter box failed - £4,806 to replace, done in 2 days.
She is running absolutely smoothly. The current known problems remain:
1. An over-wound clock! (perils of self-fly hire). Need to take out and release the spring, then re-install
2. Occasional fuse-pop on the strobe - will have this investigated for frayed wire then replace if needed
3. Blade tape used to denote the "blue" rotor has come off (replace)
John
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Arrj
I don't disagree with underpowered - then I think my R63AMG is underpowered, and I could do with some more grunt in the Subaru Imprezza STI. These are the limitations, we just work within them.
I don't agree the "lack of tail authority" point, though I did feel the same as you when I first converted from R44. It took time for me to get used to the amount of Right pedal, and the idea that unlike the R44 I needed to be ahead of what the aircraft was about to do, not be reacting to what it had started doing. It took me a short time but (and I am touching wood here, with crossed fingers) I haven't been caught out for quite some time.
One thing I do practice, having read of some accidents where the machine has yawed "uncontrollably" and then crashed, is maintaining a level attitude in yaw, and "travelling yaw" (spinning the machine whilst either moving along a straight path or moving around a hover square) so that if this happens to me I am more likely to maintain a level attitude whilst I keep the right foot in to stop the yaw. Not needed it yet, but it is so much fun to practice!
Anyway - LPC shortly with Puntasaurus so he can tell me how poor my skills have become.
I don't disagree with underpowered - then I think my R63AMG is underpowered, and I could do with some more grunt in the Subaru Imprezza STI. These are the limitations, we just work within them.
I don't agree the "lack of tail authority" point, though I did feel the same as you when I first converted from R44. It took time for me to get used to the amount of Right pedal, and the idea that unlike the R44 I needed to be ahead of what the aircraft was about to do, not be reacting to what it had started doing. It took me a short time but (and I am touching wood here, with crossed fingers) I haven't been caught out for quite some time.
One thing I do practice, having read of some accidents where the machine has yawed "uncontrollably" and then crashed, is maintaining a level attitude in yaw, and "travelling yaw" (spinning the machine whilst either moving along a straight path or moving around a hover square) so that if this happens to me I am more likely to maintain a level attitude whilst I keep the right foot in to stop the yaw. Not needed it yet, but it is so much fun to practice!
Anyway - LPC shortly with Puntasaurus so he can tell me how poor my skills have become.
Nellycopter
Having owned 5 r44 and 3 as350 and been in your position, I would suggest finding a nice 1990's era B or BA, for private work you don't need more power of the B2/3, but a huge increase on the ec120 which has scared me a number of times even with four people and full tanks. You should be able to find one, give it, new paint and interior to your standard and not pay more for it than a ec120.
Having owned 5 r44 and 3 as350 and been in your position, I would suggest finding a nice 1990's era B or BA, for private work you don't need more power of the B2/3, but a huge increase on the ec120 which has scared me a number of times even with four people and full tanks. You should be able to find one, give it, new paint and interior to your standard and not pay more for it than a ec120.
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Nellycopter. I think most people agee that the ec120 is the best in the class, however only buy one if you can afford a massive financial hit from turbomeca. It will take more to overhaul / calender inspect that engine than a good complete low time H500 or B206 helicopter will cost to buy outright. ! or even a new r44 !
Last edited by claudia; 12th Mar 2011 at 11:42.
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I agree with J&K - there seems to be little experience of an overhaul as yet. I am sure it won't be cheap (what jet turbine is cheap to overhaul?) but I certainly would hesitate to guess what the cost will be based on what a different power plant costs. As an owner, I am finding it difficult to get accurate information on a price and so have stayed silent on this cost. Some may know more than me; but as the laws of lible apply equally to internet postings then should posted information not be accurate, and should it lead to Eurocopter losing a sale because people were scarred-off buying their machine, then things could get expensive.
This link explains things simply - apologies to anyone who knew all this already.
Basic UK libel law for idiots by Adam Porter
You will appreciate that though this particular article says potential damage to reputation, and hence potential loss and compensation, would likely be lower for internet postings as the number of people seeing them would be small, things may be different for us posting here. Possibly, the number of potential EC120 customers (new or secondhand) reading a PPrune Roterheads posting would be larger than the number reading one of the national Newspapers!
So our defence, in these postings, must be that we are accurate (stating truth) where we cite information that [somebody] may consider to be damaging to their financial interests.
What I have posted so far is data from actual bills (it is accurate). I also know for sure that the TBO for the Arrius 2F fitted to Eurocoters differs depending on the configuration that you have. I have the longer-lifed version and the TBO for me is 15 yrs or 3000 hrs. I won't make the hours limit, so April 2015 it is then.
What any potential owner needs to do with any machine is to factor into their calcualtions of the cost of ownership any infrequent bills like this. It is no different for a Robinson rebuild, or for lifed-blades, turbines, etc. Cheaper 50 / 100 / 500 hr servicing over 15 years plus more expensive items later in life may or may not be cheaper in the long-run. Only you, the potential purchasor, can make your calculations and your decisions.
I bought the machine 3 years back at a significant discount to "new" price (about -600k) and that discount together with the lower cost of servicing provides a fund from which to meet (later) expenses. If I sell the machine in the meantime [no current intention] that pot is mine, offsetting any reduction in sale price [as component values are lower] compared to purchase cost.
As I say, I haven't yet got an indication of the cost for overhaul or an idea of how long it will take, or whether I can get a swap / pay to bring my old engine up to reconditioned standard; but as soon as I do I will post.
This link explains things simply - apologies to anyone who knew all this already.
Basic UK libel law for idiots by Adam Porter
You will appreciate that though this particular article says potential damage to reputation, and hence potential loss and compensation, would likely be lower for internet postings as the number of people seeing them would be small, things may be different for us posting here. Possibly, the number of potential EC120 customers (new or secondhand) reading a PPrune Roterheads posting would be larger than the number reading one of the national Newspapers!
So our defence, in these postings, must be that we are accurate (stating truth) where we cite information that [somebody] may consider to be damaging to their financial interests.
What I have posted so far is data from actual bills (it is accurate). I also know for sure that the TBO for the Arrius 2F fitted to Eurocoters differs depending on the configuration that you have. I have the longer-lifed version and the TBO for me is 15 yrs or 3000 hrs. I won't make the hours limit, so April 2015 it is then.
What any potential owner needs to do with any machine is to factor into their calcualtions of the cost of ownership any infrequent bills like this. It is no different for a Robinson rebuild, or for lifed-blades, turbines, etc. Cheaper 50 / 100 / 500 hr servicing over 15 years plus more expensive items later in life may or may not be cheaper in the long-run. Only you, the potential purchasor, can make your calculations and your decisions.
I bought the machine 3 years back at a significant discount to "new" price (about -600k) and that discount together with the lower cost of servicing provides a fund from which to meet (later) expenses. If I sell the machine in the meantime [no current intention] that pot is mine, offsetting any reduction in sale price [as component values are lower] compared to purchase cost.
As I say, I haven't yet got an indication of the cost for overhaul or an idea of how long it will take, or whether I can get a swap / pay to bring my old engine up to reconditioned standard; but as soon as I do I will post.
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Goodness I thought this was a thread on the ec 120 not a law lecture. Hope Eurocopter don t sue me for praising the 120 ! Yes it is important to be factual as i have also been. Another fact is that anyone owning a turbomeca engine with four years to run will be getting a very very big bill in 2015 if not sooner and no options, you must deal with turbomeca uk. - not even aloud to go to America. In contrast with the rolls royce model 250 you have a choice of dozens of overhaul shops to negotiate with. A recent 1750 hour inspection on one of my RR 250 turbines cost £24k including replacement of two wheels.-fact ! and no calender life.
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As an aside ECUK have two new EC120 at Oxford at the moment, I wonder who is buying those?
When does the timer start? From the time the aircraft leaves the factory or when first registered or when first sold?
I am just thinking of that new AS365 which ECUK I am told they still have stored away fro a long while now.
When does the timer start? From the time the aircraft leaves the factory or when first registered or when first sold?
I am just thinking of that new AS365 which ECUK I am told they still have stored away fro a long while now.
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Squirrels are fantastic workhorses - but agricultural...even with the exec fitout
If you want to be raped go for the french engine !! After my experience i would not own a french engined heli if you gave it to me . Any major problem will cost you the price of a very nice 500 or 206 ...crazy !!!
I would by an AS 350 LTS101 . All the best of the french helicopter without the french engine .....perfect . ( incl 15% fuel saving , more power and a fraction of the maintenance cost )
I would by an AS 350 LTS101 . All the best of the french helicopter without the french engine .....perfect . ( incl 15% fuel saving , more power and a fraction of the maintenance cost )