EC120
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"......., but with little more effort and thought they could of invited every 120 owner in the country ".
...and, perhaps, a few prospective customers ?
...and, perhaps, a few prospective customers ?
Last edited by FLY 7; 14th May 2012 at 19:35.
John - EC was squeezing me gently on maintenance, particularly as my 12 year comes up next year. Let us know how you get on with EBG? I've also been told that Heli Holland offers very competitive deals on the 12 year and has already done several...
TTB
TTB
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TTB - will do - almost complete. Hope to have the ship back in the air in about two weeks. EC have confirmed today that the corrosion on the MRG casing is minor and can be repaired, just waiting now to hear when they can do this by. The rest of the machine is (largely) back together so there might not even be a delay to the original schedule (no smily for "fingers crossed" - clearly something the Mods should address!)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Age: 56
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I attended, it was a great day, with a great goody bag too.
They didn't need to hard sell me. I would love to order one.
Paying for it might be a problem though !
And I got to see TTB lift off in his new chopper too !
Joel
They didn't need to hard sell me. I would love to order one.
Paying for it might be a problem though !
And I got to see TTB lift off in his new chopper too !
Joel
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by nellycopter
Maybe they should have used PPRuNe to advertise the event ?
I/C
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EC 120 12 Year Insection
Hi John R81 I was wondering whether you could share the costs of the 12 year inspection, I am also looking to buy turbine helicopter, for private and charter work, I was initially looking at a 206, but the EC120 looks far better for passengers, but after reading the thread about performance and turbomeca I am not so sure...
Steve P
Steve P
Engine stagnation during start anyone?
We have a 2001 EC120 that has an extremely irritating, intermittent starting problem.
FCU at 22 degrees, pump 30 secs, voltage > 25v. Activate starter, T4 rises to around 700 degrees, Ng typically climbs slowly to somewhere around 36% when the engine just stops accelerating. Tweaking the twist grip to nudge the red line (T4 800 degrees) sometimes helps, occasionally we have to go into the red, nudging 850-860 degrees for 3-4 seconds . When this happens, the engine accelerates again, but as soon as you throttle back to T4 < 800 degrees, the Ng droops and the engine stagnates again, typically at around 36%. A second attempt might be slightly better (faster initial acceleration), but the problem still exists. If a third attempt is necessary, the problem then is the exhausted battery (after the previous extended start attempts) and so a GPU is needed. But here's the thing... we only normally use the GPU after one of these failed starts and when we do, the start is often faultless, with Ng racing towards 50% in no time and T4 between 600 and 700 degrees
. If we use a GPU initially, the start will be better, not surprisingly, but we may still get the 'stagnation' problem. Using a GPU after one of these failed starts always gives the best start of all.
The aircraft has had a recently overhauled starter/gen, new FCU and new injector manifolds (which substantially improved power margins). It doesn't seem to matter if the engine is warm or cold, nor whether the ambient temperature is warm of cold. It has a particle seperator, but the problem persists whether this is removed or not.
We're stumped - any ideas anyone?
FCU at 22 degrees, pump 30 secs, voltage > 25v. Activate starter, T4 rises to around 700 degrees, Ng typically climbs slowly to somewhere around 36% when the engine just stops accelerating. Tweaking the twist grip to nudge the red line (T4 800 degrees) sometimes helps, occasionally we have to go into the red, nudging 850-860 degrees for 3-4 seconds . When this happens, the engine accelerates again, but as soon as you throttle back to T4 < 800 degrees, the Ng droops and the engine stagnates again, typically at around 36%. A second attempt might be slightly better (faster initial acceleration), but the problem still exists. If a third attempt is necessary, the problem then is the exhausted battery (after the previous extended start attempts) and so a GPU is needed. But here's the thing... we only normally use the GPU after one of these failed starts and when we do, the start is often faultless, with Ng racing towards 50% in no time and T4 between 600 and 700 degrees
. If we use a GPU initially, the start will be better, not surprisingly, but we may still get the 'stagnation' problem. Using a GPU after one of these failed starts always gives the best start of all.The aircraft has had a recently overhauled starter/gen, new FCU and new injector manifolds (which substantially improved power margins). It doesn't seem to matter if the engine is warm or cold, nor whether the ambient temperature is warm of cold. It has a particle seperator, but the problem persists whether this is removed or not.
We're stumped - any ideas anyone?
Thanks RW B2
The FCU was replaced last year before we bought the aircraft. I've spoken to pilots who flew the machine immediately before and after this replacement and they claim the starts did improve afterwards for a short period of time, but soon went back to as they were before.
Injector manifolds and OH starter have made no difference.
I'm not aware of any work being done on the P3 air feed, other than the AD that was issued in the Summer to check clearance between the first section of the air pipe and the RH rear half wall. I'll check with the technicians, but how would this cause the intermittent problem?
TTB
The FCU was replaced last year before we bought the aircraft. I've spoken to pilots who flew the machine immediately before and after this replacement and they claim the starts did improve afterwards for a short period of time, but soon went back to as they were before.
Injector manifolds and OH starter have made no difference.
I'm not aware of any work being done on the P3 air feed, other than the AD that was issued in the Summer to check clearance between the first section of the air pipe and the RH rear half wall. I'll check with the technicians, but how would this cause the intermittent problem?
TTB
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Recently...had slow, hung starts. Modulated, like you said you are. New guys couldn't start it.0, as they didn't have the finess, for getting it going. They wanted it by the book...on the white line!! Like a fadec start.
We found the seals on the pressure of fcu side were leaking (bypassing) a small amount of fuel. The boost pump volume and pressure was slightly reduced...so a "calibrated" start was not acheivable.
We found the seals on the pressure of fcu side were leaking (bypassing) a small amount of fuel. The boost pump volume and pressure was slightly reduced...so a "calibrated" start was not acheivable.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few years back an EC 120 based with Cabair at Elstree G-YSON had the exact same problem ! after a number of trips back and forth to Eurocopter the problem was still not solved till one of their guys did such a hot start the engine needed replacing and that solved it . Not much help I know but it does sound exactly the same
cbs
cbs
chutedragger - will check all seals thoroughly, but I'm not aware of any fuel leaks. Would such a leak be visible in the engine compartment?
CBS - thanks, that's very encouraging!
The bit I don't understand is why a GPU start works so well after such a dismal attempt using the aircraft's own power. It could be coincidence, but I'm not convinced...
CBS - thanks, that's very encouraging!
The bit I don't understand is why a GPU start works so well after such a dismal attempt using the aircraft's own power. It could be coincidence, but I'm not convinced...
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 500 ft or less
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TTB,
Have you noticed the battery voltage immediately after you engage the starter switch? The RFM calls for a minimum of 15 volts but we learned the hard way that any less than 17 volts can compromise the start.
As a matter of fact when we were new to the model in our organization, we experienced a couple of hot starts due to bad batteries and impatient pilots.
Have you noticed the battery voltage immediately after you engage the starter switch? The RFM calls for a minimum of 15 volts but we learned the hard way that any less than 17 volts can compromise the start.
As a matter of fact when we were new to the model in our organization, we experienced a couple of hot starts due to bad batteries and impatient pilots.
HueyLoach
The voltage is good before the start i.e. > 25v and at worst drops to maybe 19-20v during the start sequence, so well within limits. The GPU stays at 24-25v during the start.
TTB
The voltage is good before the start i.e. > 25v and at worst drops to maybe 19-20v during the start sequence, so well within limits. The GPU stays at 24-25v during the start.
TTB
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: vancouver
Age: 56
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One key piece of information in troubleshooting that snag is that the engine hangs up around 35%.
The Arriel and Arrius engines are similar in design.
When you shut the engine down, at around 40% Ng, the pressurizing valve opens and redirects the fuel in the engine back to the fuel tank, rather than continue into the engine.
When you start the engine, fuel pressure is supposed to close the pressurizing valve and start fueling through the sling wheel, rather than the start injectors.
If the pressurizing valve doesn't close, the start will stagnate around 35% Ng.
Also, you indicate the aircraft was built in 2001.
I believe the fuel system components are supposed to be overhauled every 10 years. Don't quote me on this particular component, I don't have the manuals in front of me, but certainly worth checking.
The Arriel and Arrius engines are similar in design.
When you shut the engine down, at around 40% Ng, the pressurizing valve opens and redirects the fuel in the engine back to the fuel tank, rather than continue into the engine.
When you start the engine, fuel pressure is supposed to close the pressurizing valve and start fueling through the sling wheel, rather than the start injectors.
If the pressurizing valve doesn't close, the start will stagnate around 35% Ng.
Also, you indicate the aircraft was built in 2001.
I believe the fuel system components are supposed to be overhauled every 10 years. Don't quote me on this particular component, I don't have the manuals in front of me, but certainly worth checking.
Try a few basic things,
Actually measure the voltage at the starter using the battery first and then the GPU with a meter. The cockpit instruments are not good enough and can tell you lies.
There are different paths that the current takes between the two start regimes.
Another problem you may have - The "generator" part of the starter/generator is always generating it is just isolated during the start. If it is not isolated as the speed increases the generator starts to cancel out the starter.
I would guess that on a GPU start the start portion is isolated completely with a different method as you notmally cannot charge the GPU.
I would be looking in the EMB for bad contacts, corrosion, loose or broken connectors etc.
It ain't rocket science but you should do something before you burn it.
On another point make sure that your DC system is in good shape and operating correctly with correct parts.
Several demons have popped up in this area on the Arriel causing accessory drive failures and subsequent engine failures.
Actually measure the voltage at the starter using the battery first and then the GPU with a meter. The cockpit instruments are not good enough and can tell you lies.
There are different paths that the current takes between the two start regimes.
Another problem you may have - The "generator" part of the starter/generator is always generating it is just isolated during the start. If it is not isolated as the speed increases the generator starts to cancel out the starter.
I would guess that on a GPU start the start portion is isolated completely with a different method as you notmally cannot charge the GPU.
I would be looking in the EMB for bad contacts, corrosion, loose or broken connectors etc.
It ain't rocket science but you should do something before you burn it.
On another point make sure that your DC system is in good shape and operating correctly with correct parts.
Several demons have popped up in this area on the Arriel causing accessory drive failures and subsequent engine failures.
helicopterray - that sounds very plausible; I'll ask the lads to check that out. What activates the pressurizing valve - is it just fuel pressure, or is it electrically activated? Are you a technician? Have you experienced this problem before on the Arriel engine? If so, I may PM you you to pick your brains a bit more...
RVDT - the aircraft has suffered from slow starts for a long time, but only recently has it occasionally hung completely. With a GPU, voltage on the VEMD is typically 26.4v and significantly, doesn't drop anything like as much as when starting using the aircraft's SAFT battery, maybe by 1-2 volts, instead of the 5-6 volts. As far as I know, all the basic things have been checked - several times
Thanks both for the advice - much appreciated!
RVDT - the aircraft has suffered from slow starts for a long time, but only recently has it occasionally hung completely. With a GPU, voltage on the VEMD is typically 26.4v and significantly, doesn't drop anything like as much as when starting using the aircraft's SAFT battery, maybe by 1-2 volts, instead of the 5-6 volts. As far as I know, all the basic things have been checked - several times
Thanks both for the advice - much appreciated!