Heli down - Devon
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west lake,
I will bow to your 35 years experience in this field, but there are some newer green sheathed power lines round these here parts.
SS
p.s. Does street view show anything?
I will bow to your 35 years experience in this field, but there are some newer green sheathed power lines round these here parts.
SS
p.s. Does street view show anything?
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Sid
Quite possible, different companies use do use different conductors at times.
There is some modern plastic covered stuff, we have some but it is black, though it's feasible that a green coloured version is available, I'll see what I can find out tomorrow
Quite possible, different companies use do use different conductors at times.
There is some modern plastic covered stuff, we have some but it is black, though it's feasible that a green coloured version is available, I'll see what I can find out tomorrow
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Interesting thread on the below link, especially as this was said...
Civilian Aviation • Home to the Civilian Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - Pilot recovering after Poundsgate helicopter crash
Mr Dunn, who has been flying for 20 years, said he has never been in an accident before.
He said 95 per cent of helicopter crashes were due to pilot error.
He added: "I will be back up again in a couple of months."
He said 95 per cent of helicopter crashes were due to pilot error.
He added: "I will be back up again in a couple of months."
Civilian Aviation • Home to the Civilian Aviation Enthusiast • View topic - Pilot recovering after Poundsgate helicopter crash
Postby Razor61 » Tue May 25, 2010 11:36 am
I had a feeling it would happen as i said to my other half i had that "inkling".
G-VICE MD-500 Helicopter was zooming east across Budleigh Salterton beach yesterday afternoon and up over the cliffs. IT then came zooming over the cliff tops very low and dived towards the sea across the beach heading back west again. Shortly afterwards it hit powerlines near Newton Abbot, Devon.
Pilot is okay, but the helicopter is a right off.... Rotor detached and blades flew everywhere according to eye witnesses and the helicopter ended up on its side.
I had a feeling it would happen as i said to my other half i had that "inkling".
G-VICE MD-500 Helicopter was zooming east across Budleigh Salterton beach yesterday afternoon and up over the cliffs. IT then came zooming over the cliff tops very low and dived towards the sea across the beach heading back west again. Shortly afterwards it hit powerlines near Newton Abbot, Devon.
Pilot is okay, but the helicopter is a right off.... Rotor detached and blades flew everywhere according to eye witnesses and the helicopter ended up on its side.
That's the one!
Sounded lovely as usual.
Often see it zooming around the south coast of Devon but he was certainly having "fun" yesterday. The way he came over the cliffs and came down like something out of a film! Awesome to watch.
Sadly about 15 mins after i watched him, he had hit the powerlines.
Sounded lovely as usual.
Often see it zooming around the south coast of Devon but he was certainly having "fun" yesterday. The way he came over the cliffs and came down like something out of a film! Awesome to watch.
Sadly about 15 mins after i watched him, he had hit the powerlines.
I think he was probably doing a Magnum and flying it like TJ in the opening credits
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wirecutter
couple of quick questions:-
1,Did he have wirecutters on the machine ?
2,If they were not fitted would it of saved the day if they were fitted ?
3,How effective are they and what thickness wire will they cut through?
1,Did he have wirecutters on the machine ?
2,If they were not fitted would it of saved the day if they were fitted ?
3,How effective are they and what thickness wire will they cut through?
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From the pictures in the above "magnum" link there were no cutters fitted. (Just an incidental from other accident discussions, I thought eye witness put aircraft way too low and all that, so why post all the above drivel?)
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on21,
Sorry you think it drivel, but it appears that allegedly someone saw the aircraft 'doing a TJ' 15 minutes before the accident.
However, I'm sure the report will decide what is drivel, hearsay and relevant in this incident, especially if the ac had a GPS fitted.
SS
Sorry you think it drivel, but it appears that allegedly someone saw the aircraft 'doing a TJ' 15 minutes before the accident.
However, I'm sure the report will decide what is drivel, hearsay and relevant in this incident, especially if the ac had a GPS fitted.
SS
Sid
There wont be much of a report, I notified the aaib, who due to it being pilot error were not interested in any investigation as to what happened. Report will be based on pilots report
There wont be much of a report, I notified the aaib, who due to it being pilot error were not interested in any investigation as to what happened. Report will be based on pilots report
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
That's a shame H500, it sounded as if it would be a good CRM case study.
Ah CRM, would that be for single pilot operations " I have f...ed up so I will give myself a good talking to !
Basically he came in too fast without doing a recce, had landed in the next door field more than a 100 times. Complancey breeds contempt
Basically he came in too fast without doing a recce, had landed in the next door field more than a 100 times. Complancey breeds contempt
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Nice one Hughesey,
So, CRM doesn't apply to single pilot ops then!
This is a classic example to show that it does, and it's a pity that the 'I'll give myself a good talking to' that you refer to, doesn't translate to, 'I will give my recce an extra going over as this is not my normal landing site'.
There are a lot of things that could be discussed about in this incident, things that would come up in an open forum discussion about it, however rather than let the old speculation chip warning appear, let's just look at the 'FACT' that someone who knows the pilot, the landing site and the nature of operations at the incident site tells us,
'Hughes500'
Ignoring the speed, that you cannot verify and the lack of pre landing recce, that unless the pilot admits to not doing, you cannot comment on, we must look at the part of your statement that says they "had landed in the next door field more than a 100 times".
I do wonder, if after landing in this normal LS of a field time and time again, they had ever seen these wires or indeed taken the opportunity to familiarise themselves with the area of operations from the ground perspective as there were many opportunities to do so. If this opportunity was taken, perhaps these wires, any other obstructions and lay of the land would have been seen and appreciated. Perhaps even looking around the site for different approach headings that would be available, depending on the wind direction of the day for example.
The good thing about this incident, apart from the lack of injuries, is that the rest of us can learn from it and will take that extra bit more care when circumstances dictate that we do something slightly different from our normal routine. That Hughesey, is what CRM is about, and if you and others from the 'CRM doesn't apply to the single pilot' mentality world took more notice of it, incidents like this would happen less frequently.
Looking at it in hindsight?..Yes I am. Because that's what CRM allows us to do and learn from.
So, CRM doesn't apply to single pilot ops then!
This is a classic example to show that it does, and it's a pity that the 'I'll give myself a good talking to' that you refer to, doesn't translate to, 'I will give my recce an extra going over as this is not my normal landing site'.
There are a lot of things that could be discussed about in this incident, things that would come up in an open forum discussion about it, however rather than let the old speculation chip warning appear, let's just look at the 'FACT' that someone who knows the pilot, the landing site and the nature of operations at the incident site tells us,
'Hughes500'
Basically he came in too fast without doing a recce, had landed in the next door field more than a 100 times.
I do wonder, if after landing in this normal LS of a field time and time again, they had ever seen these wires or indeed taken the opportunity to familiarise themselves with the area of operations from the ground perspective as there were many opportunities to do so. If this opportunity was taken, perhaps these wires, any other obstructions and lay of the land would have been seen and appreciated. Perhaps even looking around the site for different approach headings that would be available, depending on the wind direction of the day for example.
The good thing about this incident, apart from the lack of injuries, is that the rest of us can learn from it and will take that extra bit more care when circumstances dictate that we do something slightly different from our normal routine. That Hughesey, is what CRM is about, and if you and others from the 'CRM doesn't apply to the single pilot' mentality world took more notice of it, incidents like this would happen less frequently.
Looking at it in hindsight?..Yes I am. Because that's what CRM allows us to do and learn from.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Hughes 500;
CAP 737
Crew Resource Management (CRM) Training
Chapter 9
CRM for Single Pilots
8.1 Self Assessment
The single pilot does not have the benefit of feedback from another crew member and therefore has to learn from his own experiences. However, much can be gained from a little self analysis. After a flight it is worth reflecting on what went well and why this was the case; what did not go so well is probably more easily recalled and one can speculate the reasons for this and how one could handle a similar situation in future. The problem with self assessment is one of keeping a balanced view. This may be helped by discussing events with a colleague who can give a more independent opinion. This will also allow single pilot crews to gain some benefit from each other’s experience. A mark of good CRM is being open about one’s mistakes and sharing the experience with others.
Ah CRM, would that be for single pilot operations " I have f...ed up so I will give myself a good talking to !
CAP 737
Crew Resource Management (CRM) Training
Chapter 9
CRM for Single Pilots
8.1 Self Assessment
The single pilot does not have the benefit of feedback from another crew member and therefore has to learn from his own experiences. However, much can be gained from a little self analysis. After a flight it is worth reflecting on what went well and why this was the case; what did not go so well is probably more easily recalled and one can speculate the reasons for this and how one could handle a similar situation in future. The problem with self assessment is one of keeping a balanced view. This may be helped by discussing events with a colleague who can give a more independent opinion. This will also allow single pilot crews to gain some benefit from each other’s experience. A mark of good CRM is being open about one’s mistakes and sharing the experience with others.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Mr Doe and his wife were due to go on a pleasure flight with pilot Mark Wilkinson, who was going to take over flying the chopper, when the drama unfolded above them.
Seems like a small field.
Chapter 9
CRM for Single Pilots
8.1 Self Assessment
The single pilot does not have the benefit of feedback from another crew member and therefore has to learn from his own experiences. However, much can be gained from a little self analysis. After a flight it is worth reflecting on what went well and why this was the case; what did not go so well is probably more easily recalled and one can speculate the reasons for this and how one could handle a similar situation in future. The problem with self assessment is one of keeping a balanced view. This may be helped by discussing events with a colleague who can give a more independent opinion. This will also allow single pilot crews to gain some benefit from each other’s experience. A mark of good CRM is being open about one’s mistakes and sharing the experience with others.
CRM for Single Pilots
8.1 Self Assessment
The single pilot does not have the benefit of feedback from another crew member and therefore has to learn from his own experiences. However, much can be gained from a little self analysis. After a flight it is worth reflecting on what went well and why this was the case; what did not go so well is probably more easily recalled and one can speculate the reasons for this and how one could handle a similar situation in future. The problem with self assessment is one of keeping a balanced view. This may be helped by discussing events with a colleague who can give a more independent opinion. This will also allow single pilot crews to gain some benefit from each other’s experience. A mark of good CRM is being open about one’s mistakes and sharing the experience with others.
Maybe we should all go to self assessment therapy classes once a week as well and try and discover the deep rooted reasons why bizarrely we all think we can imitate bees for a living
In day's of old one hit the bar, ordered a pint, gave the day a quick glance over and moved on... advances in technology are the only reason safety in the industry remains high.... human nature is impossible to change and for every CRM up to speed Captain safe out in hover land, there will always be the complete opposite flying around somewhere
FWIW, I have attended at least 5 or 6 CRM modules as both a single pilot and as part of a multi crew and have thoroughly enjoyed them all, but have they really changed the way I think when out there on my own????
Dunno
Be honest, most of us are a "there for the grace of god" merchant from some time in the past, so let's not get too carried away .....
CRM courses do not have to be done by pplh. I can think of loads I have done that refered to problems within the cockpit and had very little to do with single pilot ops !!! My comment was slightly oh ever tongue in cheek. What went wrong is not doing as one is supposed to and being too flash coming into land. Too exubrient flying
SS and TC have you spoken to the pilot about the incident ? I have I know exactly what speed he says he was going at, do you ? A pilot I trained was on the ground, I have spoken to him , have you ? Personally for the ac to hit 2 wires and then continue for 100m plus it was going faster than the pilot thinks he was going at.( 40 kts )
Have either of you been with a pplh I have trained ? I have argued long and hard that the pplh sylabus is wrong, it pays more attention to inadvertent flight into imc, than confined area training. Lets be honest most ppl's once they have a shiny new licence will go and land in a friends field ( what helis were desighned to do)not fly in bad weather and risk going imc. The LPC doesnt really have a check on confined areas, I put it in as part of different landing profiles.
Yes I even did a confined area in Mr Dunn's last LPC which was about 2 months ago, which he did do a recce, into a field with wires round it. What he does or any other pilot does when he is away from me I cant look after
SS and TC have you spoken to the pilot about the incident ? I have I know exactly what speed he says he was going at, do you ? A pilot I trained was on the ground, I have spoken to him , have you ? Personally for the ac to hit 2 wires and then continue for 100m plus it was going faster than the pilot thinks he was going at.( 40 kts )
Have either of you been with a pplh I have trained ? I have argued long and hard that the pplh sylabus is wrong, it pays more attention to inadvertent flight into imc, than confined area training. Lets be honest most ppl's once they have a shiny new licence will go and land in a friends field ( what helis were desighned to do)not fly in bad weather and risk going imc. The LPC doesnt really have a check on confined areas, I put it in as part of different landing profiles.
Yes I even did a confined area in Mr Dunn's last LPC which was about 2 months ago, which he did do a recce, into a field with wires round it. What he does or any other pilot does when he is away from me I cant look after
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Enough back covering Hughsey.
Of course we all know that CRM doesn't apply to ppls or single pilot ops does it? Smell the coffee and discuss this incident a bit more. Things like;
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk
You can see the Emmental slices lining up !
A pleasure flight.
The PPL owns aircraft.
The PPL/Owner flying in the pleasure flight.
A second pilot, (presumably a CPL/ATPL) conducting pleasure flight.
The PPL/Owner reported to be 'doing a TJ' just before the incident.
The PPL/Owner wants to make pleasure flight more enjoyable. "What went wrong is not doing as one is supposed to and being too flash coming into land. Too exubrient flying"
The CPL put in awkward position.
The CPL worries about next job.
The PPL?Owner/Employer wants to take control...
etc
This incident could have been a lot worse with 4 POB!
You still haven't answered the question about the acc-stop distances required for any public transport flight applicable to G-VICE. And while we are here, under which AOC was the flight going to be carried out?
IllegalPublicTransportPRCampaign
Just that I can't see Mr Dunns name here;
Air Operator Certificates | Flight Operations | Safety Regulation
Of course we all know that CRM doesn't apply to ppls or single pilot ops does it? Smell the coffee and discuss this incident a bit more. Things like;
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk
He (Mr Dunn) said: "The tail came off, and the rotors. I was flying to pick some people up. I have been to that place loads of times but there was a north-east wind so I had to come down a different way.
Mr Doe and his wife were due to go on a pleasure flight with pilot Mark Wilkinson, who was going to take over flying the chopper, when the drama unfolded above them.
You can see the Emmental slices lining up !
A pleasure flight.
The PPL owns aircraft.
The PPL/Owner flying in the pleasure flight.
A second pilot, (presumably a CPL/ATPL) conducting pleasure flight.
The PPL/Owner reported to be 'doing a TJ' just before the incident.
The PPL/Owner wants to make pleasure flight more enjoyable. "What went wrong is not doing as one is supposed to and being too flash coming into land. Too exubrient flying"
The CPL put in awkward position.
The CPL worries about next job.
The PPL?Owner/Employer wants to take control...
etc
This incident could have been a lot worse with 4 POB!
You still haven't answered the question about the acc-stop distances required for any public transport flight applicable to G-VICE. And while we are here, under which AOC was the flight going to be carried out?
IllegalPublicTransportPRCampaign
Just that I can't see Mr Dunns name here;
Air Operator Certificates | Flight Operations | Safety Regulation
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Silso,
Are you under the impression that all pleasure flights must be classed as public transport and require an AOC?
And while we are here, under which AOC was the flight going to be carried out?
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Chopjock;
Breakfast feeding time is it !
If the passengers have paid to be carried, Yes.
Referring to all the reports on the incident, there is no mention that the passengers that were to be carried were friends of Mr Dunn, or anything that leads us to believe this was nothing other than a pleasure flight, that any reasonable person would think would have been paid for.
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk
Perhaps H500 could possibly tell us this was not the case?
If not, I will refer to the CAA Publication, linked above, about Illegal Public Transport Flights, where it says;
Oh, and you may also have read;
However if H500 can tell us that this would not be classed as a Public Transport Flight, then I will wind my neck in, apart from asking where we can get these free pleasure flights from!
Breakfast feeding time is it !
Are you under the impression that all pleasure flights must be classed as public transport and require an AOC?
Referring to all the reports on the incident, there is no mention that the passengers that were to be carried were friends of Mr Dunn, or anything that leads us to believe this was nothing other than a pleasure flight, that any reasonable person would think would have been paid for.
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk
Ron Doe, 70, witnessed the crash as he waited to be picked up for a flight in the helicopter.
Mr Doe, who is from Brighton but was on holiday in Torbay,...
Mr Doe, who is from Brighton but was on holiday in Torbay,...
If not, I will refer to the CAA Publication, linked above, about Illegal Public Transport Flights, where it says;
However, if any passenger has paid to be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC.
It is important to note that the contributions can include methods of payment other than money, e.g. free advertising or payment in kind.
Though the vast majority of flights - particularly to, within and from the UK and EU - are operated in accordance with an Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) which is a legal requirement, there are unscrupulous operators who choose to circumvent the system. It is very much in passengers’ interests to avoid being carried aboard illegal flights. Compliance with the higher safety standards demanded of AOC holders is expensive but any short-term cost advantage to the passenger in lower fares can so easily be outweighed should any accident or incident occur.
However if H500 can tell us that this would not be classed as a Public Transport Flight, then I will wind my neck in, apart from asking where we can get these free pleasure flights from!
SS
Looks like you are going to wind your neck in. It is only a public transport flight if the pax are fare paying pax. If Mr Wilkinson ( type rated pilot)was hiring the ac off Mr Dunn again it is not a public transport flight. If the pax were paying a proportion of the flight ( not including the transit flight) then again it is not a public transport flight, providing the flight was not advertised, unless advertised within a flying club.
Would suggest before you stick head above the trench you should check your facts, saves neck winding at a later date. However I do not know what if any money was changing hands so I may have to wind mine in !!!!!!!
Looks like you are going to wind your neck in. It is only a public transport flight if the pax are fare paying pax. If Mr Wilkinson ( type rated pilot)was hiring the ac off Mr Dunn again it is not a public transport flight. If the pax were paying a proportion of the flight ( not including the transit flight) then again it is not a public transport flight, providing the flight was not advertised, unless advertised within a flying club.
Would suggest before you stick head above the trench you should check your facts, saves neck winding at a later date. However I do not know what if any money was changing hands so I may have to wind mine in !!!!!!!
Sid . I love the way you aoc boys get your knickers in a twist And you really think that just because you fill in forms in triplicate and get bent over and arse whipped by the CAA your flight are safer ??????? All you guys who have let the CAA ruin your industry are to blame for the current state because you have all stood in line , been robbed and said nothing 
I have done thousands of hours without an aoc . I have had thousands paid without an aoc . I have been perfectly legal without an aoc . I have written emails from the CAA that it is legal . So yes , he could be paying and he could be leasing the aircraft and it would be perfectly legal . So there
And you really think that just because you fill in forms in triplicate and get bent over and arse whipped by the CAA your flight are safer ??????? All you guys who have let the CAA ruin your industry are to blame for the current state because you have all stood in line , been robbed and said nothing I have done thousands of hours without an aoc . I have had thousands paid without an aoc . I have been perfectly legal without an aoc . I have written emails from the CAA that it is legal . So yes , he could be paying and he could be leasing the aircraft and it would be perfectly legal . So there