TV News Helicopter Crash in Brazil with Video

[Brian Abraham]

Vietnam era army training may not be appropriate any more?

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Care to expand.

Have you practised landings with no tail rotor thrust?

How do you do that?

[mickjoebill]

yet another scene of the cabin roof decapitation and deceased pilot.
Apparently zero shock absorbed by the seats.

Would be great if the cabin roof were designed to deflect/sheer a rotor blade.

I'd trade the nice leather for energy absorbing foam and a helmet.


In respect to the video, the camera seems to have been put into stow mode. which is a user programable position activated by a single switch (lens pointing backwards with lens raised to prevent bug strikes in transit and ground contact)
This could have been a (good) reaction of the cameraman to prepare himself and the equipment for an emergency landing or simply a fast way to get the camera to point toward the tail.
How fortunate that the gearbox was displaced backward and not into the cabin.

I wish him a speedy recovery

Mickjoebill

[Sir Niall Dementia]

The smoke definately looks like the engine being stop cocked from flight power. I've seen that done by a slightly over-enthusiastic TRE and the effects were very similar.

I haven't flown a 350 for some time, but our TREs used to simulate a tail rotor control jam at high power by putting in enough foot and making us land without any pedal inputs.

A TR drive failure is the time we all become test pilots. Very few people know how any aircraft will behave without TR drive (even fewer survive the experience to tell the rest of us what to do) The designers will have a model of the idea and that is what goes in the AFM, and most of the idea will come from the textbooks.

I had a TR drive failure a long time ago and the AFM was totally wrong in what it thought should happen. Even in auto-rotation directional control was a hell of a lot less, and a lot harder to manage than I expected. Luckily we were fairly low and the impact was with a fair chunk of forward speed. However I could feel that we were on the edge of a severe spin, probably with catastrophic results.

I also wonder what the pilot's survival chances would have been with the new seats fitted to the 350 range. From the picture this aircraft had the old ones, the new ones would have crushed a long way down and maybe kept him clear of the roof and cyclic.

[Hedge36]

Niall, one of my primary instructors was a former Air Cav pilot, and made me land an R-22 several times with his foot jammed firmly against one pedal, then up and around to try the other. We did it several times, often without warning.

I'll always be grateful to him for that.

I shudder to think what a full TR loss would feel like, especially as the green/brown/black stuff got closer and experimentation became a matter of survival.

[charlieDontSurf]

Self appointed experts telling us where the poor guy went wrong and what he should have done.

Tarman:
As proffessionals. we should discuss other people's mistakes, so we learn from them and don't make them ourselves. "You don't have to break a leg to know it hurts"
That's why we have accident reports.
Nobody has claimed to be experts or better than anyone, and the easiest thing after an accident, is to say what the poor guy should have done. But when we discuss it, we become aware. And that saves lives!

Chopjock:

How do you practice a hovering tail rotor failure in a AS350 when you can't get to the throttle lever? Indeed does any A star pilot practice auto rotations on his own because of this?

On the AS 350 B3 the trottle is on the collective and easily accessible.
But on the older B2's one would have a problem cutting the throttle with a TR failure in hover. One solution would be to lower the collective as soon as possible to stop the yaw-rate, and cushion the best one can, spinning all over the place.
We don't practice that. It's too risky as we don't have a 350-sim. But we just got a 350-sim in Norway that would be a welcome training aid, as you can do certain emergencies exactly as in real-life. (ex fire-drill).
We do practice "stuck pedal" with running landings, and hover-autos, as the instructor cuts the throttle.
I practice autos (power-on of course) on my own all the time to know the gliding-distance and practice to hit clearings. It's good training.

In our company we specialise in sling-load ops, and our workday is mostly at 15m with a sling, with obstacles around the machine. Our worst nightmare is to strike the tail into a tree or something at that altitude, and with rough terrain all around. You don't have the best odds if it happens.
The 350 also has a pretty low tailrotor, so it's easy to get a strike when landing confined. We are pretty tail-rotor focused.

[AnFI]

Nam

Brian

Vietnam:
My understanding was that due to very high loss rates in training tr failure - there was a descision to stop teaching how to deal with tail rotor failure - and the advice became just to enter auto rotation ... is that about right? (historians?)
I guess pilot's learnt pretty soon in SE Asia anyway through the Darwinian process ... no?

How? :
The instructor just sets thrust to simulate the tr characteristics he wants. Maybe neutral thrust , (maybe also a little negative thrust to simulate the lost drag). The trainee can then practice the application of torque independantly from pitch/thrust untill he can land in a docile manner - get used to power/speed management etc. (there are many subleties eg non rotating tr still has pitch control so you may find a location where the tr blades don't oscillate... etc)

[Helinut]

My condolences to friends and family of the pilot. May he RIP in the knowledge that in response to this incident he avoided any injury to third parties.

For TR failures the recommended EPs are really just best educated guesses as to what might be a good idea. No one really knows. Such failures are frequently categorised into "stuck pedal" and "TR failure" but life is more complicated than that and diagnosis can be a real problem. The failure may amount to more than a loss of TR control or thrust.

As others have said, there is only so much you can do in simulation on a real helicopter. Simulators have some advantages (you can crash them without consequences) but they only show what has been written into the code of the computer. If that code is not based on hard flight data, there is guesswork in there too.

We have to take every opportunity to learn from such awful incidents as this one, but I don't think most of us are criticising the pilot, even if our hastily chosen words might suggest that to some. In such incidents the pilot is beyond his previous experience and being subject to some very disorienting physical effects.

AnFI mentions that at some point the aircraft speed reduces to the point where a noticeable yaw occurs. If, god forbid, it had been me flying this, I might well have reduced speed at height to see at what point I began to lose yaw control. This would be a useful indicator, if I was contemplating a run-on landing.

[SimFlightTest]

Being an aero engineer in the simulation industry for the past 11 years, I can say that almost every simulator operator asks for the loss of TR thrust failure to be made easier to fly than flight test data suggests.

You may be asking yourself "Sim validation data exists for tail rotor failures?!" Well.... no, but we are able to infer how the aircraft will perform without the tail rotor using several specialized flight test maneuvers. But in the end we are just making a guess, albiet a fairly educated one.

[Brian Abraham]

My understanding was that due to very high loss rates in training tr failure - there was a descision to stop teaching how to deal with tail rotor failure - and the advice became just to enter auto rotation

I can assure you that's codswallop. The first time I had practical training in tail rotor failures was with the US Army in Vietnam, never heard of any accidents (not saying there weren't any) but would have been few, if any. Our unit continued with the practice on checkrides till the end. Was never taught the failure in either the US Navy or Oz Navy.

there are many subleties eg non rotating tr still has pitch control so you may find a location where the tr blades don't oscillate

What level of experience do you have?

You may be asking yourself "Sim validation data exists for tail rotor failures?!" Well.... no, but we are able to infer how the aircraft will perform without the tail rotor using several specialized flight test maneuvers. But in the end we are just making a guess, albiet a fairly educated one.

On the 76 years ago one training organisation was teaching for a tail rotor drive failure in the hover, assuming you had the power available, to climb vertically to 1,000 or so, nose it over to get airspeed, and fly to a suitable strip for an auto. Practiced it in the sim, but always questioned the possibility of being able to do so in real life. The reasoning behind the procedure was that we flew single pilot and not enough hands for collective, cyclic and throttles.

[AnFI]

Helinut good point ...

Helinut Sure.... Testing 'loss-of-yaw-control' speed might be a good idea and it might be the case that that is what has happened here and sure you might well do that - but it is unlikely you'd deliberately go to the point of a full rotation (as soon as it looked like getting past 90degrees you might reduce the torque - no? Pick up a bit more speed - that sort of thing) - it appears more like - as you say "pilot is beyond his previous experience and being subject to some very disorienting physical effects." - and he was self teaching by neccessity - nearly got it.

Nobody is criticising the pilot in the negative sense - poor fellow - good effort - very sad.

You can train for this if you think the maths justifies it.

Was he trained to perform landing in the event of TR FAIL?

It's not such a mystery to teach - a competant handling pilot can make a simulation as realistic as you like in a real machine (with the exception of GoG issues in the event of loss of TR GBox)

That's one reason for the uncomfortable feelings in flying a machine without engine control on the lever.

FCL's on the floor - the ceiling - 'on/off' FCL's (eg B3Plus)
- not good.... for a pilot...

[Helinut]

I agree that twist grip always feels best for the pilot. Many moons ago I used to fly Robinsons. The combination of the twist grip and the responsive engine allowed you to exercise really good control, almost feeling it onto the ground (as an in-practice instructor). My recent types EC135/MD902 also have twist grips x 2. Bit more of a handful, although you can always do one at a time. The mechanisms and engine responses are more difficult than single piston engine though. OK for in-flight shutdown, but trying to finesse TR control failures would be interesting.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

To me one of the most impressive pieces of flying ever was the Bristow Puma crew who got down after a lightning strike, when the whole TRGB pulled out of the tail. Astonishing handling and amazing CRM.

I've got a couple of thousand hours on the 332 and tried TR drive failures on every visit to the sim. IIRC I got the crash into a reasonably small area, but never managed what that Bristow crew did.

When TR drive failure happened to me I was probably led by the sim into thinking it couldn't be as bad as it actually was, admittedly the failure was on a different type, but I expected some similarities. BIG WRONG.

[AnFI]

smooth flying

... there was a rather smooth pilot in the UK who lost the rear part of his tail boom during his second mid air collision and still landed well !

[Flyting]

I had a colleage lose the entire tail boom of a 407 (1 0f a handfull around the world) He immediately dropped collectice with out closing throttle, came down in an auto style descent and towards the end of the flare, the ship began to spin, at which time he cut the throttle and cushioned the landing, bending only the skids, in a 180 or so style landing. It was his fortune that this was a technique taught to him just previous to the accident.

[levo]

Eurocopter

Another Eurocopter tr failure:

[BlenderPilot]

Sad to hear,

- I have seen at least 3 instances on where AS350's lose their tail rotor control or thrust without hitting anything, and I have never seen a Bell do that in flight just out of the blue.

- I don't know what model it looks like it was not a B3 model that had collective mounted throttle, I can't believe why any helicopter designer manufacturer would still do this today.

RIP

[Gordy]

Firstly---RIP to the pilot.

Secondly---this is one of those failures that you can deal with and put the thing on the ground. It comes down to training. Without training, it comes down to basic understanding of the aircraft and luck. As most on here know, I had a similar failure back in 2001, and luck was on my side. I had never been trained in the procedure, I did exactly what he did, except, I was only about 5 feet when I started to spin and cut the engine. Obviously my outcome was different to his.

I have since been trained in the maneuver, and continue to recieve annual training on how to do it. Without trying to advertise, I recommend Glen White for the training, ask me where if you are serious about it.

[AnFI]

Helinut - MD 902 / twin torque control

Helinut:
" My recent types EC135/MD902 also have twist grips x 2. Bit more of a handful, although you can always do one at a time. The mechanisms and engine responses are more difficult than single piston engine though. OK for in-flight shutdown, but trying to finesse TR control failures would be interesting."

That is very interesting - yes it is very easy to have very good control in the highly responsive piston - but it still works ok in other light single turbines - so how does it work in the twin/902 - do you manipulate the pair of engines to make the torque change? Very low energy rotor head in the 902 not much energy to borrow from whilst not supplying energy from the engine...

... there was a chap who landed the 902 brilliantly somewhere near London with a T/R fail - great job !! - Was he trained in TR fail?
... and a 902 in Germany not so successful - was he trained?

How would you deal with it with FCL's on the ceiling?

[AnFI]

Brian - which method?

Just out of curiosity - if you can remember when you were not experienced - before you went to Vietnam were you trained in TR fail?

and

What was the officially recomended method At that time?

1 - Give up - tail rotor failures are unrecoverable (It has been willed from above)
2 - Auto rotate - cut engine accept the possibilty of gentle roll over.
3 - Running landing with Engine-Torque yaw control.
4 - Don't worry about it since it might not happen and if it does you'll think of something on the spur of the moment - nothing to lose.

It's quite an interesting question I suppose - which method where people here shown ? Where, when? eg. self taught, UK, 1958


Q

[VeeAny]

Q

An interesting question about when and where.

What I recall of my history of Tail Rotor Failure Training.
During PPL training I don't believe it was mentioned [1995-1998]
Edited to Add it was part of an R44 type rating in 1998, with autorotation being suggested as the option. No discussion of control jams, loss of drive or loss of components.
During FI training no mention [1999]
During FI renewal was demoed stuck neutral by Philip Sheldon [2000 or 2001]

Then had to demonstrate it back, which was easy having just watched him do it.

Being naturally inqusitive ( in case you hadn't noticed) I then set about trying learn about different peoples techniques and effectively expanded my envelope of Tail Rotor failure training skills based upon those techniques.

I think I built up from stuck neutral / feet off through to stuck right then to stuck left.

Because of the nature of training out of Biggin Hill when I was there and us not being able to do circuits on a regular basis I would then use the transit time back from Redhill to set the student up for an engine off or tail rotor malfunction of some kind to our FATO (big patch of grass) almost every time.

I suppose experience helps you plug some of the holes in your training in any subject but it should not be that way in aviation.

It is interesting to note what Sir Niall Dementia says about his experience being very different from training.



GS