TV News Helicopter Crash in Brazil with Video
One of the reasons I became an instructor, after flying the first 1000 hours of my license... I got to hone those emergeny skills with tons of demonstrating practice.
good advice Gordy
and I like this one from SASless...
1. FLY THE AIRCRAFT.
2. As stated above do not refer to this as stuck left/right, it gets too confusing when switching aircraft types.
3. Take your time; make as many approaches as needed.
4. No matter what anyone says—there is no text book way to do it.
2. As stated above do not refer to this as stuck left/right, it gets too confusing when switching aircraft types.
3. Take your time; make as many approaches as needed.
4. No matter what anyone says—there is no text book way to do it.
and I like this one from SASless...
Ass, Tin, Ticket.... in that order. Save your own Ass, Save the helicopter, and worry about the license after doing the first two.
Life is not always doom and gloom after a drive shaft failure. Not a good quality video, but you can see that the tail rotor is stationary.
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Last edited by Senior Pilot; 14th Feb 2010 at 19:13. Reason: embed YouTube link
And as an illustration of how quickly it can all go horribly wrong in a machine with much less torque although a smaller MMI and less stab area and a shorter tail boom than a 355.
For illustration only.
Edited to add this was obviously self induced and only posted to illustrate how fast the helicopter can spin after the failure.
For illustration only.
Edited to add this was obviously self induced and only posted to illustrate how fast the helicopter can spin after the failure.
Last edited by VeeAny; 14th Feb 2010 at 20:19.
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Good landing !
... must be you Mighty Gem
- being modest? (though it was good of the helicopter to hold together - eh?)
... more examples required... (whose going to post the Thai SAR Dauphin 'demonstration'?
)
- being modest? (though it was good of the helicopter to hold together - eh?)... more examples required... (whose going to post the Thai SAR Dauphin 'demonstration'?
)
Look, I'm not the best pilot on the planet, but I can say for damn sure that I can do a better autorotation than a high-speed, run-on, maybe crooked landing. Watch the impact of that Twin Squirrel and tell me you're not thinking, "Whew, that was CLOSE!" Close to tragedy, that is.
No tail rotor? Just auto. That's what they tell us to do: Land without torque. Is there an RFM that recommends otherwise? Why experiment with the unknown and unproven?
Get as high as you can while cruising to the AIRPORT you're going to land at. If you're in a twin, pull one back to idle as you're doing that (you don't need all that torque anyway). When you're over the field, enter a flat-pitch approach into the wind and pull the other one to idle. Stop-cock them on the way down. Flare, level, cushion, done. Aren't we taught to do this? I mean, aren't we taught to do this more than we're taught to be test pilots?
I've been blessed with two, yes TWO tail rotor failures, both with PHI. Both happened because mechanics didn't tighten stuff up properly during maintenance and the bits came undone later when it was just me and the machine. The first happened just after landing on an offshore oil platform. Horrible noise just after putting the pitch down. Thomas coupling had come apart. Thank the Lord it didn't happen 30 seconds earlier.
Second one happened just after liftoff to a hover on an oil platform. Bang! My left foot went to the floor and then the world spun sideways so fast I couldn't really believe it. Whoa-Nelly! To this day I am astonished at how fast the rotation was, and how you get thrown sideways and don't anticipate that part. Chopped the throttle and did a hovering auto back to the deck. Afterward, I was complaining, err...mentioning to one of our IP's at headquarters that chopping the throttle did not stop the spin. And he goes, "Why didn't you just go straight to cut-off?" Oops. Yeah, that might have worked....maybe...kinda...dammit.
Last year, the 206 Recurrent pilot I flew with spent almost the entire dang session doing tail rotor problems - stuck-left, stuck-right, stuck-right again and again and again - until I was thoroughly wore-slap-out. It, combined with my previous experience reinforced my opinion that with no tail rotor thrust, these things spin FAST if you pull any torque without sufficient airspeed. (And in Recurrent, for our stuck-rights we didn't even put the pedal to the floor - only far enough down to simulate it getting stuck during a low-power approach. And that was bad enough!)
No tail rotor? I'm autorotating, baby. I can do that. They don't pay me enough to be a test pilot.
No tail rotor? Just auto. That's what they tell us to do: Land without torque. Is there an RFM that recommends otherwise? Why experiment with the unknown and unproven?
Get as high as you can while cruising to the AIRPORT you're going to land at. If you're in a twin, pull one back to idle as you're doing that (you don't need all that torque anyway). When you're over the field, enter a flat-pitch approach into the wind and pull the other one to idle. Stop-cock them on the way down. Flare, level, cushion, done. Aren't we taught to do this? I mean, aren't we taught to do this more than we're taught to be test pilots?
I've been blessed with two, yes TWO tail rotor failures, both with PHI. Both happened because mechanics didn't tighten stuff up properly during maintenance and the bits came undone later when it was just me and the machine. The first happened just after landing on an offshore oil platform. Horrible noise just after putting the pitch down. Thomas coupling had come apart. Thank the Lord it didn't happen 30 seconds earlier.
Second one happened just after liftoff to a hover on an oil platform. Bang! My left foot went to the floor and then the world spun sideways so fast I couldn't really believe it. Whoa-Nelly! To this day I am astonished at how fast the rotation was, and how you get thrown sideways and don't anticipate that part. Chopped the throttle and did a hovering auto back to the deck. Afterward, I was complaining, err...mentioning to one of our IP's at headquarters that chopping the throttle did not stop the spin. And he goes, "Why didn't you just go straight to cut-off?" Oops. Yeah, that might have worked....maybe...kinda...dammit.
Last year, the 206 Recurrent pilot I flew with spent almost the entire dang session doing tail rotor problems - stuck-left, stuck-right, stuck-right again and again and again - until I was thoroughly wore-slap-out. It, combined with my previous experience reinforced my opinion that with no tail rotor thrust, these things spin FAST if you pull any torque without sufficient airspeed. (And in Recurrent, for our stuck-rights we didn't even put the pedal to the floor - only far enough down to simulate it getting stuck during a low-power approach. And that was bad enough!)
No tail rotor? I'm autorotating, baby. I can do that. They don't pay me enough to be a test pilot.
FH1100, you don't get it do you. What you do is just fly to the nearest airport - didn't you read the previous posts? It's easy, what's the problem?
God it's scary what people out there think!
PS. Just seen your vid mighty gem - nice job sir!
God it's scary what people out there think!
PS. Just seen your vid mighty gem - nice job sir!
212man, guess you better re-enroll in that anger management class.
I've reall ALL of the previous posts. I believe the Twinstar in Mighty Gem's post was flown, um, to an airport? At least, that's what it looks like with that Piper Cherokee sitting there.
The Astar that is the result of this thread had an airport within three miles of him, and two other airports within five miles of him - and he flew around for five minutes (so he obviously had it more or less under control). But he elected to *not* go to an airport, and look how that worked out!
So tell me, your highness: What *DON'T* I "get?"
I've reall ALL of the previous posts. I believe the Twinstar in Mighty Gem's post was flown, um, to an airport? At least, that's what it looks like with that Piper Cherokee sitting there.
The Astar that is the result of this thread had an airport within three miles of him, and two other airports within five miles of him - and he flew around for five minutes (so he obviously had it more or less under control). But he elected to *not* go to an airport, and look how that worked out!
So tell me, your highness: What *DON'T* I "get?"
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Having experienced total and sudden T/R drive shaft failure from the nil airspeed, vertical climbing power (almost full throttle) configuration I was able use that little scare to rectify or confirm some of my previous assumptions.
· The rotation acceleration was so fast with power on that on the second rotation I believed that I would lose spatial orientation if I didn’t chop the throttle “right now”, ol’ son and collective down quick.
· The rotational spin does not STOP because of that, it merely slows down and as I chopped the throttle at sixty feet it was still spinning reasonably fast on touchdown which, as it was a 3B1 only just bent the cross-tubes a little.
· I was never taught the procedure at ab initio except that it was ‘explained’ to me that one would have to first chop the throttle to stop the spin, then because the power is off, lower the collective and thus enter autorotation, or hold the collective and settle on, dependent upon height.
· In my case I intuitively wished to fly away, with collective down as far as possible and power still on. I grasped in a flash that I would need far more than the thirty feet of airspace which was all I had above the canopy to do that. With height available and ugly terrain underneath me I would try to fly it out, but land as soon as possible. Simple logic.
Yes it easy to control the direction on a running landing with twist grip throttle. It is also easy and safer, to take the training a bit further and experience touchdown at almost zero airspeed. First though establish that there is no vibration from the rear end and that the T/R G ‘box looks secure, then fly as far as you need to have landing assistance.
After my incident quite a long time ago, I very quickly started practising, then teaching recovery from T/R failure, in the hover at skid height, and then later hovering at 1500 feet to go into full auto. Also a normal landing from airspeed
For WIW here is the technique in précis. I first talk about the descent profile. Why? Because it is an exercise in arriving at nothing with nothing, no A/S, no ROD,no Power, Simple, think about it.
Use a whiteboard to draw some ideas of your descent path and what you would do at various points.
With the twist grip first practice playing with torque in the cruise. Torque is a product of RPM and MAP or Power applied. Disengage the governor, roll the throttle on and off with collective maintained, see the A/C yaw with RPM fluctuating. Do it reasonably firmly for best effect otherwise the RPM just decays and little yaw is experienced.
Setting the RPM on final run in is important. A higher RPM will allow use of more torque effect when rolling off the throttle. Don’t wind it on just before finals to give you the higher RPM, that will give you more yaw that you then have to get rid of. Have it set a ways back, a bit over the red line. Hold it there as you manipulate the collective.
Setting up the descent is difficult and it usually means two or three goes to get it right if you are not current, so don’t feel bad about that. Too low and you will need excessive power to hold off. Too steep and you will need excess power to stop the high ROD, too fast and you will need excessive flare to wash of the A/S., and then excess power to stop the sudden loss of lift, all of which are agents of yaw.
Practice slowing it right down until the aircraft is travelling at about eight knots G/S with a quartering headwind onto the yawed out Tail boom, left or right dependent upon rotor rotation. Even a slow crosswind is acceptable.
Another gentle flare, roll of the throttle sweetly and fully, remember to hold the collective still at this point at about a foot skid height, the A/C will come nicely straight, speed washing right of and hold off for a smooth touchdown. It takes quite a bit of practice.
On a remote throttle without skilled help to roll it off I would cut the engine at height and enter autorotation. However as I have said before as have others, surely one can practice wedging the collective with the knee and then flicking off the remote throttle. After all in a turbine the ‘spool down’ is a lot slower than a recip, and therefore more forgiving with time to get the collective down.
Those higher T/R failure practices were good for pulling the smart a**e attitude out of those who grew cocky at the usual 1200 hour mark. Harness tight, loose articles nil, etc, very high R of D for some three hundred feet and more before spinning stopped a bit later. I always controlled the T/R at touchdown for obvious reasons
I remember many moons ago? There was a video around, or news clip, of the OZ navy doing practice T/R failure from the hover. The check pilot called the exercise, ‘commencing now’ and at the same time had his (from memory) hand on the roof mounted throttle (OZ navy squirrels), and pulled it at the checked pilot’s call. Then of course they just settled with a normal slightly spinning touchdown. Of course the throttle was pulled at - straight after the first quarter turn, well before any rotational speed had built up. Our exercises from the hover, we do the same, I.E. Expect the checked pilot to quickly react, and it is a good demonstration exercise.
I agree strongly with Malibo, at the operational level where close hazards are the norm, then the AOC holder should be able to demonstrate his ‘duty of care’ by outlining how their organisation prepares pilots for the advent and most importantly normal evasion of a strike. We get them to put that tail UP, UP every time. Something the poor fellow in Qld recently has not been taught IMHO.
cheers tet
· The rotation acceleration was so fast with power on that on the second rotation I believed that I would lose spatial orientation if I didn’t chop the throttle “right now”, ol’ son and collective down quick.
· The rotational spin does not STOP because of that, it merely slows down and as I chopped the throttle at sixty feet it was still spinning reasonably fast on touchdown which, as it was a 3B1 only just bent the cross-tubes a little.
· I was never taught the procedure at ab initio except that it was ‘explained’ to me that one would have to first chop the throttle to stop the spin, then because the power is off, lower the collective and thus enter autorotation, or hold the collective and settle on, dependent upon height.
· In my case I intuitively wished to fly away, with collective down as far as possible and power still on. I grasped in a flash that I would need far more than the thirty feet of airspace which was all I had above the canopy to do that. With height available and ugly terrain underneath me I would try to fly it out, but land as soon as possible. Simple logic.
Yes it easy to control the direction on a running landing with twist grip throttle. It is also easy and safer, to take the training a bit further and experience touchdown at almost zero airspeed. First though establish that there is no vibration from the rear end and that the T/R G ‘box looks secure, then fly as far as you need to have landing assistance.
After my incident quite a long time ago, I very quickly started practising, then teaching recovery from T/R failure, in the hover at skid height, and then later hovering at 1500 feet to go into full auto. Also a normal landing from airspeed
For WIW here is the technique in précis. I first talk about the descent profile. Why? Because it is an exercise in arriving at nothing with nothing, no A/S, no ROD,no Power, Simple, think about it.
Use a whiteboard to draw some ideas of your descent path and what you would do at various points.
With the twist grip first practice playing with torque in the cruise. Torque is a product of RPM and MAP or Power applied. Disengage the governor, roll the throttle on and off with collective maintained, see the A/C yaw with RPM fluctuating. Do it reasonably firmly for best effect otherwise the RPM just decays and little yaw is experienced.
Setting the RPM on final run in is important. A higher RPM will allow use of more torque effect when rolling off the throttle. Don’t wind it on just before finals to give you the higher RPM, that will give you more yaw that you then have to get rid of. Have it set a ways back, a bit over the red line. Hold it there as you manipulate the collective.
Setting up the descent is difficult and it usually means two or three goes to get it right if you are not current, so don’t feel bad about that. Too low and you will need excessive power to hold off. Too steep and you will need excess power to stop the high ROD, too fast and you will need excessive flare to wash of the A/S., and then excess power to stop the sudden loss of lift, all of which are agents of yaw.
Practice slowing it right down until the aircraft is travelling at about eight knots G/S with a quartering headwind onto the yawed out Tail boom, left or right dependent upon rotor rotation. Even a slow crosswind is acceptable.
Another gentle flare, roll of the throttle sweetly and fully, remember to hold the collective still at this point at about a foot skid height, the A/C will come nicely straight, speed washing right of and hold off for a smooth touchdown. It takes quite a bit of practice.
On a remote throttle without skilled help to roll it off I would cut the engine at height and enter autorotation. However as I have said before as have others, surely one can practice wedging the collective with the knee and then flicking off the remote throttle. After all in a turbine the ‘spool down’ is a lot slower than a recip, and therefore more forgiving with time to get the collective down.
Those higher T/R failure practices were good for pulling the smart a**e attitude out of those who grew cocky at the usual 1200 hour mark. Harness tight, loose articles nil, etc, very high R of D for some three hundred feet and more before spinning stopped a bit later. I always controlled the T/R at touchdown for obvious reasons
I remember many moons ago? There was a video around, or news clip, of the OZ navy doing practice T/R failure from the hover. The check pilot called the exercise, ‘commencing now’ and at the same time had his (from memory) hand on the roof mounted throttle (OZ navy squirrels), and pulled it at the checked pilot’s call. Then of course they just settled with a normal slightly spinning touchdown. Of course the throttle was pulled at - straight after the first quarter turn, well before any rotational speed had built up. Our exercises from the hover, we do the same, I.E. Expect the checked pilot to quickly react, and it is a good demonstration exercise.
I agree strongly with Malibo, at the operational level where close hazards are the norm, then the AOC holder should be able to demonstrate his ‘duty of care’ by outlining how their organisation prepares pilots for the advent and most importantly normal evasion of a strike. We get them to put that tail UP, UP every time. Something the poor fellow in Qld recently has not been taught IMHO.
cheers tet
212man, guess you better re-enroll in that anger management class.
I was contrasting your sensible input with the nonsense that some posters felt necessary to propose early on in the thread (about how eay it all is)
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Woud like some advice on training for TRF (loss of thrust and stuck pedal) in the B407. I am transitioning to the 407 and after reading this thread over the weekend, sent it to my instructor, and we had a long discussion today followed by some flying. We didnt try anything extreme as this was my first go at TRF's in the 407. Shortly after beginning a takeoff, I was instructed to put my feet on the floor and fly the pattern and land without using the pedals. Not pretty, but not terrible. Then, from cruise, instructor set approximate zero TR thrust on the pedals and had me fly an approach and land with feet on the floor - again, not pretty, but doable. He is not about to get the acft spinning on purpose, and that's fits well with my view of the world. So, how helpful is this kind of training likely to be, and what additional useful training maneuvers are feasible in the acft without undue risk?
I note that there are no TRF related accidents for the B407 on the NTSB website except where the pilot struck something with the TR which induced failure. Perhaps this type has a lower frequency of TRF's than some others.
I note that there are no TRF related accidents for the B407 on the NTSB website except where the pilot struck something with the TR which induced failure. Perhaps this type has a lower frequency of TRF's than some others.
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I can think of at least 5 different videos where you can see AS350's crashing into the ground due to tail rotor failures that ocurred in flight without hitting anything with the spinning rotor.
But never seen a Bell do that on video thou . . . some weird coincidence? or could it be that AS350's are more likely to have this type of failure?
But never seen a Bell do that on video thou . . . some weird coincidence? or could it be that AS350's are more likely to have this type of failure?
It would appear to this old git.....there has been a drift towards some manufactuers teaching a high speed run on landing for certain tail rotor failures. (BK-117's springs to mind) and a certain operator I worked for adopted that mind set as etched in stone. Their position was the builder knows more than the operator....and thus we must comply with their dictates.
Now visualize this situation....night, on NVG's, no pedal control, landing on a very long and reasonably wide kinda smooth runway....maybe with a bit of cross wind. As in simulations (TC blocking pedals in the factory recommended position) touch down speed about 90 knots trying to keep the wee bird on the runway.
When I opined how incredibly stupid this was....I incurred the wrath of the unclean speaking heresy. I suggestedI I did not care to waste valuable training time on this method but instead why not just go do some autorotations instead. When asked about that ....I said because if we ever have that kind of failure....I was sure gonna shut off both engines and hold the fecking power levers in the shut off position....and we would be autorotating to the ground.
I submit arriving at the ground in autorotation, engines shut off, fuell shut off, with zero or near zero ground speed...even if you cock it up and roll the machine over...at least the rotors will stop in a hurry and not be driven by the engines.
Compare that to running off the runway at full chat at some airplane like groundspeed......huh uh...not me!
Now visualize this situation....night, on NVG's, no pedal control, landing on a very long and reasonably wide kinda smooth runway....maybe with a bit of cross wind. As in simulations (TC blocking pedals in the factory recommended position) touch down speed about 90 knots trying to keep the wee bird on the runway.
When I opined how incredibly stupid this was....I incurred the wrath of the unclean speaking heresy. I suggestedI I did not care to waste valuable training time on this method but instead why not just go do some autorotations instead. When asked about that ....I said because if we ever have that kind of failure....I was sure gonna shut off both engines and hold the fecking power levers in the shut off position....and we would be autorotating to the ground.
I submit arriving at the ground in autorotation, engines shut off, fuell shut off, with zero or near zero ground speed...even if you cock it up and roll the machine over...at least the rotors will stop in a hurry and not be driven by the engines.
Compare that to running off the runway at full chat at some airplane like groundspeed......huh uh...not me!
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SAS, perhaps I could ask you to answer the question I posed earlier, about detecting an event like loss of tail rotor control (e.g. stuck pedal), vs. tail rotor failure.
I would think we could all agree that tail rotor failure means enter auto immediately(?).
I am trying to understand situations we would be better off detecting and that where flying off to a suitable landing site for a run-on landing would be a preferred course of action.
I would think we could all agree that tail rotor failure means enter auto immediately(?).
I am trying to understand situations we would be better off detecting and that where flying off to a suitable landing site for a run-on landing would be a preferred course of action.
For the sake of discussion of related point, if we assume the pilot was thinking that he was in control in the initial phase of the emergency, could the US$450,000 HD camera payload, hanging low on the nose of this aircraft have had an influence on the choice of what type of emergency landing procedure he conducted?
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I would think we could all agree that tail rotor failure means enter auto immediately(?).
I am trying to understand situations we would be better off detecting and that where flying off to a suitable landing site for a run-on landing would be a preferred course of action.
I am trying to understand situations we would be better off detecting and that where flying off to a suitable landing site for a run-on landing would be a preferred course of action.
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I would think we could all agree that tail rotor failure means enter auto immediately(?).
If spinning, then a different story.
Ass, tin, ticket - such wisdom in so few words!