Agusta AW139
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Airwave am I to understand that your aircraft lifts before everyone is strapped in?
It was our HLOs routine to make sure all pax were strapped in before he would give us the thumbs up and walk away followed by another thumbs up before we could lift.
It was our HLOs routine to make sure all pax were strapped in before he would give us the thumbs up and walk away followed by another thumbs up before we could lift.
Hi Airwave 45,
If the GH pilots are not getting the aircraft started, and it is due to battery problems, then it is probably because they are faffing about like they do in the 412's. The 139 is power hungry and needs to have the pre-start checks done quickly to minimise power loss. Once you get the first donk started, you've got no worries. Of course, it could be ATC. When I was at GH there were times when the controllers would dick you around just because they could.
Best you get your pilots sorted out with taking off with pax still getting strapped in too. Isn't the forward left passenger on intercom? The facility is there in the cabin, use it, it is a great safety tool.
I wouldn't worry about the main rotor blades hitting you when the engines are running. The blades are VERY stiff and don't droop. They don't even droop when everything comes to a stop. Clearance at the front when running is a good 10ft. If a company runs a mixed fleet of 139's and 76's (which GH doesn't) then I would enforce going out of the rotor disc to the side. If you go out the front on a 76, you really do run the risk of a major headache!
After 4 odd years wrenching on the 139, I much prefer working on them to working on the 412. Less to do, and easier to work on. Mechanically they are a pretty simple, robust helicopter. Electrically they can be a challenge, but once any bugs from the factory are ironed out, they tend to pretty good machines.
If the GH pilots are not getting the aircraft started, and it is due to battery problems, then it is probably because they are faffing about like they do in the 412's. The 139 is power hungry and needs to have the pre-start checks done quickly to minimise power loss. Once you get the first donk started, you've got no worries. Of course, it could be ATC. When I was at GH there were times when the controllers would dick you around just because they could.
Best you get your pilots sorted out with taking off with pax still getting strapped in too. Isn't the forward left passenger on intercom? The facility is there in the cabin, use it, it is a great safety tool.
I wouldn't worry about the main rotor blades hitting you when the engines are running. The blades are VERY stiff and don't droop. They don't even droop when everything comes to a stop. Clearance at the front when running is a good 10ft. If a company runs a mixed fleet of 139's and 76's (which GH doesn't) then I would enforce going out of the rotor disc to the side. If you go out the front on a 76, you really do run the risk of a major headache!
After 4 odd years wrenching on the 139, I much prefer working on them to working on the 412. Less to do, and easier to work on. Mechanically they are a pretty simple, robust helicopter. Electrically they can be a challenge, but once any bugs from the factory are ironed out, they tend to pretty good machines.
humm, I missed the airwave posts 
Griff, Why not? I can't see the situation where I need to pull more than 228TQ in a normal cruise. It was on from the take off.
Regards
Aser
griffothefog Acer,
Nice pics, but why is the torque limiter on over the pond
Nice pics, but why is the torque limiter on over the pond
Regards
Aser
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Torque Limiter
ASER
You are in dangerous territory. Nowhere in the flight manual, other than the OEI Training Mode, is use of the TL recommended.
If you do some digging you may find a story in which one aircraft was saved because the TL was OFF. It is designed to be OFF.
In any subsequent enquiry your routine selection of the TL may look very foolish...... if you survive.
G
PS - There have been several 109 accidents that may have had a different outcome if the TL had been off (on the 109E it's normally ON but later models have it as per the 139, normally OFF)
You are in dangerous territory. Nowhere in the flight manual, other than the OEI Training Mode, is use of the TL recommended.
If you do some digging you may find a story in which one aircraft was saved because the TL was OFF. It is designed to be OFF.
In any subsequent enquiry your routine selection of the TL may look very foolish...... if you survive.
G
PS - There have been several 109 accidents that may have had a different outcome if the TL had been off (on the 109E it's normally ON but later models have it as per the 139, normally OFF)
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 13th Jun 2009 at 12:33.
Geoff,
That story was told to me by the pilot (imc flight going wrong...)
Nowhere in the RFM says the TQ limiter has to be off.
And about the 109 accidents , there is a BIG difference , in the 109 you have to switch it off after an engine failure(or trying to take off with one engine at idle, like in one of the 109 incidents), but in the 139 TL goes off automatically.
Anyway this discussion is like the one about the speed to arm floats, Agusta doesn't want to write anything specific in the manuals.
I don't really need to fly with TL on, but I have seen over torques at take off just because someone was not paying too much attention.
If TL is not safe to use why we don't get it in writing...?
Regards
Aser
That story was told to me by the pilot (imc flight going wrong...)
Nowhere in the RFM says the TQ limiter has to be off.
And about the 109 accidents , there is a BIG difference , in the 109 you have to switch it off after an engine failure(or trying to take off with one engine at idle, like in one of the 109 incidents), but in the 139 TL goes off automatically.
Anyway this discussion is like the one about the speed to arm floats, Agusta doesn't want to write anything specific in the manuals.
I don't really need to fly with TL on, but I have seen over torques at take off just because someone was not paying too much attention.
If TL is not safe to use why we don't get it in writing...?
Regards
Aser
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ASER
With respect the RFM clearly says that if you are over water you arm the floats. Do what you will but be it upon your own head and hope you can afford a good lawyer if the unthinkable happens and you end up trying to explain how you were the only one to get out when you flew the aircraft into the water. Won't happen to me? Well there is a Bond 225 crew who thought the same until it happened to them.
G
G
Geoff,
about the floats we are on the same side, I always arm it when over water at low level regardless of speed.
You will see a bunch of my colleagues this summer in the sim (sadly I wont be there) and you will see that a lot of them are on the other side...
What about the Agusta? don't you think it will be better if they amend the rfm
regarding TL/floats to be more specific?
Regards
Aser
about the floats we are on the same side, I always arm it when over water at low level regardless of speed.
You will see a bunch of my colleagues this summer in the sim (sadly I wont be there) and you will see that a lot of them are on the other side...
What about the Agusta? don't you think it will be better if they amend the rfm
regarding TL/floats to be more specific?
Regards
Aser
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Mmmmm ....
Geoffers ....
I am with Aser on the issue of Torque Limiter operations (as Is the company I fly with).
Whilst I do not have a copy of the RFM or QRH with me atm ... I do not recall anywhere in those documents where there is a limitation on its (Torque Limiter) operation. Yes there is an explanation of it operation with regard limiting values (also saying that for OEI flight its operation is inhibited) ... but nowhere does it say your NOT to use it for any particular condition of flight.
Please correct me if I am wrong!
Cheers
Geoffers ....
I am with Aser on the issue of Torque Limiter operations (as Is the company I fly with).
Whilst I do not have a copy of the RFM or QRH with me atm ... I do not recall anywhere in those documents where there is a limitation on its (Torque Limiter) operation. Yes there is an explanation of it operation with regard limiting values (also saying that for OEI flight its operation is inhibited) ... but nowhere does it say your NOT to use it for any particular condition of flight.
Please correct me if I am wrong!
Cheers
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Extracts from the RFM
FLOATS
IN FLIGHT PROCEDURES
1. FLOATS EMER switch
Over land operation — Confirm OFF.
Over water operation — Confirm ARMED, FLOAT ARM caution
displayed on CAS.
That cannot be clearer.
TORQUE LIMITER
This extract covers the pre-start checks, collective control switch panel:-
40. ♦ RPM switch (on collective) — Set 100%
41. ♦ 1 ENG GOV (on collective) — AUTO
42. ♦ 2 ENG GOV (on collective) — AUTO
43. ENG TRIM beep switches (on
collective)
— Verify operation, then leave
the engine control levers in
the FLIGHT position.
♦ On BATTERY power use a
single ‘click’ back and forward
to confirm ECL stops in
FLIGHT gate.
Note
Each engine trim beep switch controls the respective
control lever from MIN to FLIGHT position when in
AUTO mode, and from MIN to MAX position when in
MANUAL mode
Note
Both engines control levers should always be operated
through the beep switches located on the collective control.
They should be operated manually only in case of
failure of the remote control (ECL FAIL caution message),
or before starting, to position the lever to FLIGHT.
NOTE - no mention of the TL.
This means that if it was considered 'normal' to use the TL then it would be mentioned - maybe 'Test, then leave on as required' or something similar. The fact that is that it is not mentioned because it is not a normal consideration. As I said before if you can justify the use of the TL in special circumstances then you may have a sound argument in which case you should include it in your (published and approved) SOPs or OM. In my opinion those that fly around with the TL habitually armed are asking for trouble. The TL for OEI ops will always be there whether you like it or not but to loose an airframe for want of worry about an overtorque really is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
G.
IN FLIGHT PROCEDURES
1. FLOATS EMER switch
Over land operation — Confirm OFF.
Over water operation — Confirm ARMED, FLOAT ARM caution
displayed on CAS.
That cannot be clearer.
TORQUE LIMITER
This extract covers the pre-start checks, collective control switch panel:-
40. ♦ RPM switch (on collective) — Set 100%
41. ♦ 1 ENG GOV (on collective) — AUTO
42. ♦ 2 ENG GOV (on collective) — AUTO
43. ENG TRIM beep switches (on
collective)
— Verify operation, then leave
the engine control levers in
the FLIGHT position.
♦ On BATTERY power use a
single ‘click’ back and forward
to confirm ECL stops in
FLIGHT gate.
Note
Each engine trim beep switch controls the respective
control lever from MIN to FLIGHT position when in
AUTO mode, and from MIN to MAX position when in
MANUAL mode
Note
Both engines control levers should always be operated
through the beep switches located on the collective control.
They should be operated manually only in case of
failure of the remote control (ECL FAIL caution message),
or before starting, to position the lever to FLIGHT.
NOTE - no mention of the TL.
This means that if it was considered 'normal' to use the TL then it would be mentioned - maybe 'Test, then leave on as required' or something similar. The fact that is that it is not mentioned because it is not a normal consideration. As I said before if you can justify the use of the TL in special circumstances then you may have a sound argument in which case you should include it in your (published and approved) SOPs or OM. In my opinion those that fly around with the TL habitually armed are asking for trouble. The TL for OEI ops will always be there whether you like it or not but to loose an airframe for want of worry about an overtorque really is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
G.
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Torquestripe
I don't know what was in the designer's mind but how about this stab at his possible approach to the situation.
Torque Limiter has an advisory (Green) CAS message because having it on is neither a hazard nor an emergency. Remember the Torque Limiter is only mentioned in the RFM in the context of 'Use of The OEI Training Mode' and in this context it is not a hazard.
The FLOATS ARMED amber CAS message warns the pilot not to press the FLOATS INFLATE button. The switch then becaomes a hazard.
I am aware that you could argue the reverse (Green for floats and amber for TL) but that's the way it is and it doesn't make it wrong, just very wishy washy and with a certain ambiguity of purpose. On balance I feel the designer has just about got it right - but only after a great deal of contemplation.
If we had a designer reading prune or an engineer, maybe he/she would comment.
G.
Torque Limiter has an advisory (Green) CAS message because having it on is neither a hazard nor an emergency. Remember the Torque Limiter is only mentioned in the RFM in the context of 'Use of The OEI Training Mode' and in this context it is not a hazard.
The FLOATS ARMED amber CAS message warns the pilot not to press the FLOATS INFLATE button. The switch then becaomes a hazard.
I am aware that you could argue the reverse (Green for floats and amber for TL) but that's the way it is and it doesn't make it wrong, just very wishy washy and with a certain ambiguity of purpose. On balance I feel the designer has just about got it right - but only after a great deal of contemplation.
If we had a designer reading prune or an engineer, maybe he/she would comment.
G.
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Mmm ...
Geoffers ....
Thank you for the above .... I have no problem with the "Floats Operation" and if fact operate IAW the RFM.
I do however still have an issue with your version of operations with the TL.
If as you say there is no mention in the RFM other than as you have mentioned and as a rated pilot trained on type with the knowledge that if you pull more than 114/114% expect the RRPM to bleed off then what is the problem ... it is a protection.
There being no warnings or cautions NOT to operate in that manner I believe allows me to do so as long as I understand how or why I want to do so.
Takes me back to my Puma days .... I believe I would rather fly the Rrpm droop rather than risk burning an engine .... having said that ... my choices would depend on the flight task at hand.
If Agusta consider flying with TL active a flight hazard then they should amend the RFM to indicate same.
Cheers
Geoffers ....
Thank you for the above .... I have no problem with the "Floats Operation" and if fact operate IAW the RFM.
I do however still have an issue with your version of operations with the TL.
If as you say there is no mention in the RFM other than as you have mentioned and as a rated pilot trained on type with the knowledge that if you pull more than 114/114% expect the RRPM to bleed off then what is the problem ... it is a protection.
There being no warnings or cautions NOT to operate in that manner I believe allows me to do so as long as I understand how or why I want to do so.
Takes me back to my Puma days .... I believe I would rather fly the Rrpm droop rather than risk burning an engine .... having said that ... my choices would depend on the flight task at hand.
If Agusta consider flying with TL active a flight hazard then they should amend the RFM to indicate same.
Cheers
Section 2 AW139 - RFM - 4D
Normal Procedures Document N°
139G0290X002
Page 2-28 E.A.S.A. Approved
PRE TAKE-OFF CHECKS
1.AFCS — Engaged.
2. MFD — Select PWR PLANT page
3. PARK BRAKE handle — Released.
4. ENG MODE — Confirm both to FLIGHT
5. ECL — Confirm both to FLIGHT
6. TQ LIMiter pushbutton — Push, if required, to enable TQ
limiter function (LIMITER ON
advisory message)
CAUTION
With TQ LIMiter enabled the AEO engine total torque will
be limited to a combined torque value of 228%TQ. OEI
engine torque limit will remain at 160%TQ.
7. CAS — Clear/as required.
Normal Procedures Document N°
139G0290X002
Page 2-28 E.A.S.A. Approved
PRE TAKE-OFF CHECKS
1.AFCS — Engaged.
2. MFD — Select PWR PLANT page
3. PARK BRAKE handle — Released.
4. ENG MODE — Confirm both to FLIGHT
5. ECL — Confirm both to FLIGHT
6. TQ LIMiter pushbutton — Push, if required, to enable TQ
limiter function (LIMITER ON
advisory message)
CAUTION
With TQ LIMiter enabled the AEO engine total torque will
be limited to a combined torque value of 228%TQ. OEI
engine torque limit will remain at 160%TQ.
7. CAS — Clear/as required.
I'm not saying that we need to use the TL, but that Agusta can write better manuals and if the TL is only for OEI training they need to be more clear.
Also with the floats, it doesn't cost money to put something like (arm floats up to vne) so I don't have to fight with every pilot afraid to arm them.
Best regards
Aser
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Spinwing
The MGB is built really really well and can take a hell of a load. If you get into a hole and need to get out of it the you may need a lot more that 114/114 and what a shame to DIE for the sake of your concern for your bosses wallet - and it may be insured anyway.
An interesting area for further deliberation is that when in 'Manual Mode' the logic of the Torque matching over-rides the actual Torque used so that with one engine at 112 and the other at 80 it will declare a TRANSMISSION OVERTORQUE on the CAS even though the total MGB Torque is less than the max 220. What happens if the TL is left on during Manual Mode? The answer is that it will artificially restrict your (legitimate) access to the full 220 by holding the high engine at 114.
This is a fine example of pilots 'reading between the lines' and using their intelligence to find a better solution ONLY they don't have all the facts.
Lovely story about the operator who was running a Dauphin C with the tricycle undercarriage. He wanted to modify it to the skids and bought the kit from Aerospatiale. Having completed the conversion he noted that the small tail wheel underneath the fenestron was still in place. 'Remove it' was the order, 'we need to save weight'. Well, they did and 10 hours later the fenestron disintegrated. With no tail wheel the vibes hit resonance at the fenestron and cause the total loss of the aircraft. Now the operator thought that Aerospatiale had forgotten to mention the tailwheel when they read the mod instructions but no, they just made the mistake of thinking that the operator WOULD DO AS HE WAS TOLD.
Remember - you dont know everything - and using your intelligence can get you into trouble if you don't have ALL the facts.
G
Edit - typo
An interesting area for further deliberation is that when in 'Manual Mode' the logic of the Torque matching over-rides the actual Torque used so that with one engine at 112 and the other at 80 it will declare a TRANSMISSION OVERTORQUE on the CAS even though the total MGB Torque is less than the max 220. What happens if the TL is left on during Manual Mode? The answer is that it will artificially restrict your (legitimate) access to the full 220 by holding the high engine at 114.
This is a fine example of pilots 'reading between the lines' and using their intelligence to find a better solution ONLY they don't have all the facts.
Lovely story about the operator who was running a Dauphin C with the tricycle undercarriage. He wanted to modify it to the skids and bought the kit from Aerospatiale. Having completed the conversion he noted that the small tail wheel underneath the fenestron was still in place. 'Remove it' was the order, 'we need to save weight'. Well, they did and 10 hours later the fenestron disintegrated. With no tail wheel the vibes hit resonance at the fenestron and cause the total loss of the aircraft. Now the operator thought that Aerospatiale had forgotten to mention the tailwheel when they read the mod instructions but no, they just made the mistake of thinking that the operator WOULD DO AS HE WAS TOLD.
Remember - you dont know everything - and using your intelligence can get you into trouble if you don't have ALL the facts.
G
Edit - typo
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 14th Jun 2009 at 12:14.
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ASER
Has your checklist been approved by your regulator (CAA)?
If you have an issue with the RFM then you should take it up with your CAA inspector who should take it up with the factory. You are a customer and have the ability to demand answers, especially if they are routed through your National CAA.
I notice that your checklist by itself does not invite routine use of the TL - seems that you too have an ambiguity problem in that the advice in the checklist is insufficient for the pilot to make an informed decision about when and where to use it. What does your OM say on the subject?
G
If you have an issue with the RFM then you should take it up with your CAA inspector who should take it up with the factory. You are a customer and have the ability to demand answers, especially if they are routed through your National CAA.
I notice that your checklist by itself does not invite routine use of the TL - seems that you too have an ambiguity problem in that the advice in the checklist is insufficient for the pilot to make an informed decision about when and where to use it. What does your OM say on the subject?
G
An interesting area for further deliberation is that when in 'Manual Mode' the logic of the Torque matching over-rides the actual Torque used so that with one engine at 112 and the other at 80 it will declare a TRANSMISSION OVERTORQUE on the CAS even though the total MGB Torque is less than the max 220. What happens if the TL is left on during Manual Mode? The answer is that it will artificially restrict your (legitimate) access to the full 220 by holding the high engine at 114.
It had to hold the good engine at 114 or you make damage to the xmsn.
Of course when oei xmsn could take up to 176.
But I'm talking about something I heard in 2006
please correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards
Aser
Geoff/Aser,
The group you need to engage in this discussion is are the former members of the Helicopter Airworthiness Study Group (HASG) who sponsored the Limit Override Workshop conference at Vergiate in November 2001. Nick Lappos gave the Keynote speech and at least one of your own Test Pilots (Nigel) was there.
The concept of limit override was to "Sacrifice the engine to save the aircraft" not to have something that "Sacrificed the aircraft to save the engine". As I remember it, the concept was one of a 'blow-away switch" that could be used in emergencies. This might be more pertinent to the AW139 where there is no access to 30 second power limits.
There were also discussions about twin-engine operations where the OEI limits would not be exceeded but the twin-engine limits would (a gearbox limit); not sure whether such limits are employed as it would require communication/protocols between the FADEC of both engines.
I must say I agree with Geoff when it comes to procedures; best not to double guess the system, much better to comply with the manual and seek clarification of the function of the 'TL' from Agusta.
If the 'TL' is related only to OEI operations (hence the discussion on training), you appear to be in danger of leaving one tool out of your toolbox in an emergency.
Jim
The group you need to engage in this discussion is are the former members of the Helicopter Airworthiness Study Group (HASG) who sponsored the Limit Override Workshop conference at Vergiate in November 2001. Nick Lappos gave the Keynote speech and at least one of your own Test Pilots (Nigel) was there.
The concept of limit override was to "Sacrifice the engine to save the aircraft" not to have something that "Sacrificed the aircraft to save the engine". As I remember it, the concept was one of a 'blow-away switch" that could be used in emergencies. This might be more pertinent to the AW139 where there is no access to 30 second power limits.
There were also discussions about twin-engine operations where the OEI limits would not be exceeded but the twin-engine limits would (a gearbox limit); not sure whether such limits are employed as it would require communication/protocols between the FADEC of both engines.
I must say I agree with Geoff when it comes to procedures; best not to double guess the system, much better to comply with the manual and seek clarification of the function of the 'TL' from Agusta.
If the 'TL' is related only to OEI operations (hence the discussion on training), you appear to be in danger of leaving one tool out of your toolbox in an emergency.
Jim