UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Well no wonder they are having trouble setting this up they do not speak English!
'practitioner'
'volunteers'
'Workstream'
'Chair’
All terms imported from the [Manchester] Guardian book of PC confusion!
Police people and volunteers does not compute.
Is Workstream like a Sodastream.... all gas nothing else?
I talk to my chair regularly and it never gives me the answers!
'practitioner'
'volunteers'
'Workstream'
'Chair’
All terms imported from the [Manchester] Guardian book of PC confusion!
Police people and volunteers does not compute.
Is Workstream like a Sodastream.... all gas nothing else?
I talk to my chair regularly and it never gives me the answers!
JAFO,
Me too! And its starting to hurt.
I am confident though, that the chairs have been thought through carefully, and that a depth of practical experience has been brought into play.
Now let me see - Observers?
Data set? OK Good solid experience there.
Pilots, - cannot comment
But the rest?? How much practical experience on operational units? Hopefully loads. But
tigerfish
Me too! And its starting to hurt.
I am confident though, that the chairs have been thought through carefully, and that a depth of practical experience has been brought into play.
Now let me see - Observers?
Data set? OK Good solid experience there.
Pilots, - cannot comment
But the rest?? How much practical experience on operational units? Hopefully loads. But
tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 10th Nov 2011 at 23:27.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: newcastle
Age: 53
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Consulting - Policy - Finance
The NPAS Chair List by BIT could have be worse, one of the volunteers/chairs in charge of finance could have been this ex police authority chairman who picked contracts until recently! Detained overnight according to latest reports.
Police arrest Cleveland Police ex-chairman McLuckie (From The Northern Echo)
Police arrest Cleveland Police ex-chairman McLuckie (From The Northern Echo)
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In a world of my own!
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A quick trawl on the interweb found these(no doubt more sarcastic versions will follow)
Practitioner:-
a person actively engaged in an art, discipline, or profession.
Volunteer:-
a person who freely offers to do something.
Chair:- the person in charge of a meeting or an organization (used as a neutral alternative to chairman or chairwoman).
The Chair does just that, if you were to look at the members of these groups (Practitioner volunteers)you would see the wealth of experience and knowledge. As the release says all regions are represented in each workstream.
Practitioner:-
a person actively engaged in an art, discipline, or profession.
Volunteer:-
a person who freely offers to do something.
Chair:- the person in charge of a meeting or an organization (used as a neutral alternative to chairman or chairwoman).
The Chair does just that, if you were to look at the members of these groups (Practitioner volunteers)you would see the wealth of experience and knowledge. As the release says all regions are represented in each workstream.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wealth of Experience
Yes WF, we saw the 'wealth of experience' in action at the South Yorks PA meeting.
Welcome back TF, fancy being on a toothless and irrelevant work stream?
Welcome back TF, fancy being on a toothless and irrelevant work stream?
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WOW ! - No NPAS news for 9 days !
Is it because everyone is too busy updating their CV's ready for all the new jobs that are on the way ?
Here's one :
Flight Operations Director - 1401305126 - Flightglobal Jobs
Is it because everyone is too busy updating their CV's ready for all the new jobs that are on the way ?
Here's one :
Flight Operations Director - 1401305126 - Flightglobal Jobs
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: no where
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are some interesting discussions on the NPIA POLKA web site for those who can access it. But, as you say, little news from NPAS, and with only 4 months (and Xmas to deal with) before they push the BIG RED BUTTON, I would like to think that they would consider a news letter or the like, or even a visit, just to keep those who may be affected by the first round of transfers to NPAS, or indeed redundancies, in the picture.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: newcastle
Age: 53
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time Warp - 3 force consortium again?
Meetings behind closed doors are proving positive about another north east helicopter consortium.
Alarm at cost of cop helicopter merger plan - Sunday Sun
"It can also be revealed today that Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria forces are still in talks about pooling air resources."
Sources mention that there will be only room for one EC135 under Northumbrias rule. Will it be a T2 or P2+ which stays?
Northumbria and Durham forces have both previously stated that there is only a requirement for one helicopter following a lengthy best value revue.
Should be quids in for the three forces after the help of the recent home office grant for the Cleveland aircraft.
Could the north east super force planned under the Labour government be back on the cards now the opposing Cleveland Police Authority EX Chairman Dave McLukie is out of the way following his recent arrest by HMIC investigators?
Northumbria Police support the NPAS system.
Alarm at cost of cop helicopter merger plan - Sunday Sun
"It can also be revealed today that Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria forces are still in talks about pooling air resources."
Sources mention that there will be only room for one EC135 under Northumbrias rule. Will it be a T2 or P2+ which stays?
Northumbria and Durham forces have both previously stated that there is only a requirement for one helicopter following a lengthy best value revue.
Should be quids in for the three forces after the help of the recent home office grant for the Cleveland aircraft.
Could the north east super force planned under the Labour government be back on the cards now the opposing Cleveland Police Authority EX Chairman Dave McLukie is out of the way following his recent arrest by HMIC investigators?
Northumbria Police support the NPAS system.
Last edited by MP5; 21st Nov 2011 at 08:35. Reason: A P2+ +
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A Home Office spokesman said it will save cash but forces argue that detailed figures have not yet been provided.
The Home Office said: “The National Police Air Service will provide a more consistent service while saving forces £15m per year when fully in place across all forces – savings that will help to protect frontline policing.”
MP5
The problem with that North East solution is that it makes exactly the same fatal mistake that NPAS is making. It proposes to spread the Jam too thin!!
When will people realise that the success of Police Air Support has always depended on rapid deployment and rapid arrival on scene. If that arrival is any longer than 15 minutes (20 at the outside) then the deployment of the aircraft is likely to have been wasted. We learnt that lesson in the late 80's and early 90's and it still holds good today.
The NPAS plan spreads the jam so thin all across the country that time and time again aircraft will be arriving on scene far too late to be effective! Forces will quite simply we wasting valuable cash resources.
I am sorry, - but your throw away comment about, "will it be the T2 or P2 that survives" reveals your lack of understanding about the differences between the two aircraft. The Turbomeca powered T2 is fine but never had the performance of the original T1 which many preffered. No Police force in the UK ever received a ( Pratt & Whitney powered ) P2 which had similar drawbacks to the T2.
What Cleveland and others received was the much improved later development, the P2+ which was a far better bet, and went a long way towards restoring the original T1 performance, lost when the CAA demanded enhanced and heavier stabilization than was fitted to the T1.
In addition the P2+ machines deleted the heavy centreline equipment pod, and mounted flir and Nitesun on Meker mounts or bolsters. This permitted lower skids and a much improved all round machine.
I know which one I would want if push came to shove! But it is wrong to suggest taking either out. To ensure efficient and proper safe cover for the poor bloody infantry on the ground keep both!
The thinning of air cover will invite the return of all the problems that we once had licked! Money has to be saved I totally accept that, but it can be done in better ways. These proposals neauter the effectiveness of the weapon. The resultant rump of a service will just waste even more money!
Ol' Grumpy
AKA "tigerfish"
When will people realise that the success of Police Air Support has always depended on rapid deployment and rapid arrival on scene. If that arrival is any longer than 15 minutes (20 at the outside) then the deployment of the aircraft is likely to have been wasted. We learnt that lesson in the late 80's and early 90's and it still holds good today.
The NPAS plan spreads the jam so thin all across the country that time and time again aircraft will be arriving on scene far too late to be effective! Forces will quite simply we wasting valuable cash resources.
I am sorry, - but your throw away comment about, "will it be the T2 or P2 that survives" reveals your lack of understanding about the differences between the two aircraft. The Turbomeca powered T2 is fine but never had the performance of the original T1 which many preffered. No Police force in the UK ever received a ( Pratt & Whitney powered ) P2 which had similar drawbacks to the T2.
What Cleveland and others received was the much improved later development, the P2+ which was a far better bet, and went a long way towards restoring the original T1 performance, lost when the CAA demanded enhanced and heavier stabilization than was fitted to the T1.
In addition the P2+ machines deleted the heavy centreline equipment pod, and mounted flir and Nitesun on Meker mounts or bolsters. This permitted lower skids and a much improved all round machine.
I know which one I would want if push came to shove! But it is wrong to suggest taking either out. To ensure efficient and proper safe cover for the poor bloody infantry on the ground keep both!
The thinning of air cover will invite the return of all the problems that we once had licked! Money has to be saved I totally accept that, but it can be done in better ways. These proposals neauter the effectiveness of the weapon. The resultant rump of a service will just waste even more money!
Ol' Grumpy
AKA "tigerfish"
Last edited by tigerfish; 21st Nov 2011 at 10:09.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A break from a 'head in the books' 'foggy night' 'pre OPC' session.. digs up;
http://www.northumbria-police-author...counts0910.pdf
Annual costs 2009;
Air Support £1.45m (assets £3.7m)
Stationary £1.65m
£139.26m 'sitting around' and they 'want to' join NPAS to save £350k p/a with possibly a reduced service, especially when N.Yorkshire will have access to the ac 
http://www.northumbria-police-author...counts0910.pdf
Annual costs 2009;
Air Support £1.45m (assets £3.7m)
Stationary £1.65m
At the 31 March 2010 5.26% of the Authority’s £88.886m of deposits were with financial institutions domiciled outside of the UK. (Singapore)
The Authority maintains a debt portfolio of £50.37m and investment portfolio of £88.886m.
The Authority maintains a debt portfolio of £50.37m and investment portfolio of £88.886m.
MP5, where does it say 1 Helicopter between the 3 counties? Cleveland are still not signed up to NPAS and Durham and Northumbria are working together.
Looking at the map of the North, its easy to see that both N Yorks and Cumbria will soon have access to Air support. Wonder how long it will be before the trips to the lakes and the N York moors for Mispers start?
Looking at the map of the North, its easy to see that both N Yorks and Cumbria will soon have access to Air support. Wonder how long it will be before the trips to the lakes and the N York moors for Mispers start?
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: newcastle
Age: 53
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
+ or -
Edited the P2 so it now has + 
Timex, the Sunday Sun article comments about them in talks about pooling resources again. The best value revue undertaken by Northumbria Police into its asu operations stated that they only wanted one a/c. Durham agreed which was why both forces left the previous 3 force setup. I'm not aware that has changed. We will have to wait and see.
Silsoe, if the Home Office see how much spare cash there is banked up here, Mrs May may cut force funding even further next year. Thats a lot of Mays isnt it! Singapore? they dont do Euro's do they?
Timex, the Sunday Sun article comments about them in talks about pooling resources again. The best value revue undertaken by Northumbria Police into its asu operations stated that they only wanted one a/c. Durham agreed which was why both forces left the previous 3 force setup. I'm not aware that has changed. We will have to wait and see.
Silsoe, if the Home Office see how much spare cash there is banked up here, Mrs May may cut force funding even further next year. Thats a lot of Mays isnt it! Singapore? they dont do Euro's do they?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BIT (10 Nov) re the list of chairs.
Whilst I've seen it before, posting it again just enhances the pain somewhat. It would be less painful if one knew that the "chairs" were seriously listening to experts in the relevant field, and were not planning to make changes in areas where they have absolutely no real or practical experience in - there being two names that leap off the page immediately.
Tigerfish - having come across, & worked with, the pilot workstream chair many times, I can assure you that there aren't many in the UK quite as balanced or experienced, so nothing to worry about there, IMHO.
I'd also concur with your performance comments on T2 vs P2i.
And as for potential applicants for the advertised job, let us pray that the interview process is vigourous enough to stick to evidenced experience in the various areas requested, especially . . .
otherwise we'll end up with another spectacular NPAS own goal when applicants apply to the salary rather than the task, I fear. As has been posted before, there are some (but only a very few) people in the UK who would manage to fit the full criteria, however much Police ASU experience they have, I believe.
Whilst I've seen it before, posting it again just enhances the pain somewhat. It would be less painful if one knew that the "chairs" were seriously listening to experts in the relevant field, and were not planning to make changes in areas where they have absolutely no real or practical experience in - there being two names that leap off the page immediately.
Tigerfish - having come across, & worked with, the pilot workstream chair many times, I can assure you that there aren't many in the UK quite as balanced or experienced, so nothing to worry about there, IMHO.
I'd also concur with your performance comments on T2 vs P2i.And as for potential applicants for the advertised job, let us pray that the interview process is vigourous enough to stick to evidenced experience in the various areas requested, especially . . .
financial and resource management experience at a senior, strategic level OR strategic and tactical planning with excellent problem solving and communications skills
Whats the news of Honington to accomodate the pair of EC135 that will cover Cambs, Suffolk and Essex?
Though I thought I read on the military aircrew forum somewhere that anything to support flight operations had been removed last year? Barring the mention of thefts of airfield lights by the locals.
Cheers
Though I thought I read on the military aircrew forum somewhere that anything to support flight operations had been removed last year? Barring the mention of thefts of airfield lights by the locals.
Cheers
It is important to realise that the NPAS proposals will bring about a fundamental change in the way Police Air Support will be used, and also in the way it is perceived by the public.
Until now the Police Helicopter has proved to be highly effective in combating vehicle crime, onstreet muggings and some burglaries etc, also in its search role whether it be for lost and vulnerable mispers or escaped fugitives. Some problematical crimes such as the ram raid have been almost eliminated. The gathering of evidence especially photographic evidence has been made easier.
But now with the jam spread so thin, it is likely that the role of the helicopter will change. I suspect the tendency will be away from mainly reactive Policing, to that of being part of the resources available for major and pre planned events.
Chief Officers appear to have lost interest in arresting criminals for street and vehicle crime. What is more important now is to make a good showing in controlling major sporting events, demonstrations and public order issues. They were always important before, but together with Counter Terrorism appear to be the only consideration now. ( I fully support the need for enhanced counter terrorism )
But there is a danger in the way we are moving away from the needs of the general public. Make no bones about it, generally speaking the public at large supported the use of the Police Helicopter in combating local crime. It was effective, and above all visible. When there was no Bobby on the Beat the public still knew we were about because of the helicopter. "it makes us feel safe" was the comment often heard. It had a serious effect on the criminal too. The increased chance of being caught did deter many from that sort of crime and enhanced community safety at the same time.
Sadly the era of NPAS will markedly reduce that advantage to Policing in general. Yes! - I know it was expensive, and change had to come, but there were other ways of saving money without reducing the fleet so much.
I maintain that what is coming will save some money in the short term, but will have a huge cost in the years to come. The public will lose yet more confidence in the Police as the Helicopter appears less and less in their sky's
tigerfish
AKA Ol grumpy.
Until now the Police Helicopter has proved to be highly effective in combating vehicle crime, onstreet muggings and some burglaries etc, also in its search role whether it be for lost and vulnerable mispers or escaped fugitives. Some problematical crimes such as the ram raid have been almost eliminated. The gathering of evidence especially photographic evidence has been made easier.
But now with the jam spread so thin, it is likely that the role of the helicopter will change. I suspect the tendency will be away from mainly reactive Policing, to that of being part of the resources available for major and pre planned events.
Chief Officers appear to have lost interest in arresting criminals for street and vehicle crime. What is more important now is to make a good showing in controlling major sporting events, demonstrations and public order issues. They were always important before, but together with Counter Terrorism appear to be the only consideration now. ( I fully support the need for enhanced counter terrorism )
But there is a danger in the way we are moving away from the needs of the general public. Make no bones about it, generally speaking the public at large supported the use of the Police Helicopter in combating local crime. It was effective, and above all visible. When there was no Bobby on the Beat the public still knew we were about because of the helicopter. "it makes us feel safe" was the comment often heard. It had a serious effect on the criminal too. The increased chance of being caught did deter many from that sort of crime and enhanced community safety at the same time.
Sadly the era of NPAS will markedly reduce that advantage to Policing in general. Yes! - I know it was expensive, and change had to come, but there were other ways of saving money without reducing the fleet so much.
I maintain that what is coming will save some money in the short term, but will have a huge cost in the years to come. The public will lose yet more confidence in the Police as the Helicopter appears less and less in their sky's
tigerfish
AKA Ol grumpy.
Last edited by tigerfish; 21st Nov 2011 at 15:47.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Any news on the move to RAF Colerne?
http://www.aspola.org.uk/cache/PDF/D...039_515152.pdf
AVON AND SOMERSET POLICE AUTHORITY
4 OCTOBER 2011
REPORT OF THE CHIEF CONSTABLE
NATIONAL POLICE AIR SERVICE AND LOCAL UPDATE
http://www.aspola.org.uk/cache/PDF/D...039_515152.pdf
AVON AND SOMERSET POLICE AUTHORITY
4 OCTOBER 2011
REPORT OF THE CHIEF CONSTABLE
NATIONAL POLICE AIR SERVICE AND LOCAL UPDATE
4.3 NPAS proposes Western Counties and Wiltshire relocate to a new base at RAF Colerne and reduce by one aircraft. This is being expedited as a priority in terms of their project considerations because of the proposed closure of Filton Airfield by December 2012. NPAS state any proposed move must take place before this date. Home Office capital funding for Colerne (£1.4 million) has been granted and is in the process of being lodged with Hampshire Police in a holding account.
4.4 Ensuring operational coverage both in terms of time and non-time critical incidents remains a concern with Colerne given its topographical and geographical location. NPAS commissioned a meteorological study approximately one year ago due to concerns about poor weather which may lead to an increased loss of service. The study has been completed using comparative data from RAF Lyneham and Bristol Airport and it is known that NPAS are in possession of that report but they keep delaying the publishing of that report.
4.4 Ensuring operational coverage both in terms of time and non-time critical incidents remains a concern with Colerne given its topographical and geographical location. NPAS commissioned a meteorological study approximately one year ago due to concerns about poor weather which may lead to an increased loss of service. The study has been completed using comparative data from RAF Lyneham and Bristol Airport and it is known that NPAS are in possession of that report but they keep delaying the publishing of that report.