Another Attack On A Police Helicopter
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SilsoeSid said;
'They' are more than capable of protecting the aircraft, now that IS a fact.......
...... do you really think it was easily destroyed?
The asset, a flaming beacon to the incompetence of police and airport authorities and the hardly vigilant ASU!
Arrogance is no substitute for professionalism.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Cal, 3 more points on the licence by any chance?
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SilsoeSid said;
So when I come round your house in the middle of the night, kick down the front door, run up to your bedroom, where I hold a knife to your wife's throat and say "give me your car keys", what part of your personal responsibility for your personal possessions should you have followed more attentively?
HeliCal,
How long do you think it will take me to get up those stairs?
Not as long as you'd take unlocking your secure cabinet!!
How long do you think it will take me to get up those stairs?
Not as long as you'd take unlocking your secure cabinet!!
The topic is the attack which destroyed the aircraft, not your idiotic fantasies!
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HeliCraig
I agree with you, sadly BHX stated in the press they have met the minimum required standards for security... says it all doesnt it
people expect better of the big airports; and as I have said in my previous post - its not at a massive cost.. especially against the cost of replacing the aircraft.
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Heli-cal I am leaning to think that you have limited knowledge of airport/police security bar what you read in Viz or the Sun, enlighten me if I am wrong as it is always good to be informed by an expert
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Not just Brum then !!!!
Plane protesters lock down jet with 'human wheel clamp' at City airport | News
Five protesters in pinstriped suits and bowler hats chained themselves to a private jet at London City Airport this morning.
The activists, members of the anti-aviation expansion network Plane Stupid, used bolt cutters to saw through the perimeter fence by the runway at 2.30am.
They were found by security guards chained together in a circle around one of the planes.
One was Tamsin Omond, the 24-year-old grand-daughter of Sir Thomas Lees, a fourth generation Dorset baronet.
The Cambridge graduate has been involved in some of the campaign's high profile attacks including scaling the Palace of Westminster in protest over a third runway at Heathrow
Spokeswoman Nancy Birch said the "human wheel clamp" was designed to highlight the "selfishness" of private jet use.
"Our intention was to stage a corporate takeover of the private jet centre with all our protesters in business suits," she said.
"Small jets emit between five and 10 times more carbon per passenger than commercial flights. It's time they were grounded for good."
She said the group had found a CCTV blind spot in the perimeter fence, about 100 yards from the security hut.
"This is a central, busy airport and a major terrorist target but getting into it was child's play," she said.
At police arrived to cut the steel tubes, known as arm locks, off the protesters but Miss Birch said the group had fortified the chains to make it harder.
A spokeswoman for City Airport said there could be a "slight delay" to the schedule for the private jets.
But she added: "This has not disrupted the main airport. The safety of our passengers and staff remain a priority but we do not expect any flights to be significantly affected.
"This is now a police matter and we expect there to be arrests for criminal damage and breaking and entering."
Plane Stupid said it had a legal expert on hand to deal with any arrests.
The activists, members of the anti-aviation expansion network Plane Stupid, used bolt cutters to saw through the perimeter fence by the runway at 2.30am.
They were found by security guards chained together in a circle around one of the planes.
One was Tamsin Omond, the 24-year-old grand-daughter of Sir Thomas Lees, a fourth generation Dorset baronet.
The Cambridge graduate has been involved in some of the campaign's high profile attacks including scaling the Palace of Westminster in protest over a third runway at Heathrow
Spokeswoman Nancy Birch said the "human wheel clamp" was designed to highlight the "selfishness" of private jet use.
"Our intention was to stage a corporate takeover of the private jet centre with all our protesters in business suits," she said.
"Small jets emit between five and 10 times more carbon per passenger than commercial flights. It's time they were grounded for good."
She said the group had found a CCTV blind spot in the perimeter fence, about 100 yards from the security hut.
"This is a central, busy airport and a major terrorist target but getting into it was child's play," she said.
At police arrived to cut the steel tubes, known as arm locks, off the protesters but Miss Birch said the group had fortified the chains to make it harder.
A spokeswoman for City Airport said there could be a "slight delay" to the schedule for the private jets.
But she added: "This has not disrupted the main airport. The safety of our passengers and staff remain a priority but we do not expect any flights to be significantly affected.
"This is now a police matter and we expect there to be arrests for criminal damage and breaking and entering."
Plane Stupid said it had a legal expert on hand to deal with any arrests.
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My original post on this thread was...
"Much as I would like to join in with a lively debate on some of the issues already being high-lighted in this incident, suffice as to say this is a major crime scene and a major criminal investigation is underway. It is wholly in-appropriate for those in the industry to speculate on any of the issues that drive such a devastating criminal act, and vitally important that the investigating team are allowed to carry out their work without distractions.
It may however be the case that a number of Police units within the UK take a long hard look at there own security arrangements, given the nature of this catastrophic incident.
Hnh"
And it was said because of the likes of Heli-Cal who contribute nothing but bile to this conversation.
Hnh
"Much as I would like to join in with a lively debate on some of the issues already being high-lighted in this incident, suffice as to say this is a major crime scene and a major criminal investigation is underway. It is wholly in-appropriate for those in the industry to speculate on any of the issues that drive such a devastating criminal act, and vitally important that the investigating team are allowed to carry out their work without distractions.
It may however be the case that a number of Police units within the UK take a long hard look at there own security arrangements, given the nature of this catastrophic incident.
Hnh"
And it was said because of the likes of Heli-Cal who contribute nothing but bile to this conversation.
Hnh
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oscardog177,
For the couple of minutes it takes to get the aircraft out of the hangar, I know what I'd rather do.
The reason being the aircraft flys 24hrs. Vital minutes would be lost if the crew had to take the aircraft out of the hangar each time
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
...or even consider that during this time of year, not only at night, but also in the early morning hours and late evenings, the Police Helicopter is all there is.
Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!
Need we mention the missing children, elderly and ill, or indeed any other circumstance where the skills of the crew and versatility of a helicopter is able to save life!
Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!
Need we mention the missing children, elderly and ill, or indeed any other circumstance where the skills of the crew and versatility of a helicopter is able to save life!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I think I have tired of this thread.
3 pages of finger wagging and hindsight, but no real mention about the person or persons that did the deed. Are they some kind of hero to those whose 'handle' begins with 'Heli'? Neither of whom previously have come up anywhere and said, "Mmmm perhaps security at BHX should be improved", despite one working very close to where the entry point is and watching aircraft come and go for a very long time!
That is all.
3 pages of finger wagging and hindsight, but no real mention about the person or persons that did the deed. Are they some kind of hero to those whose 'handle' begins with 'Heli'? Neither of whom previously have come up anywhere and said, "Mmmm perhaps security at BHX should be improved", despite one working very close to where the entry point is and watching aircraft come and go for a very long time!
That is all.
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Perhaps the sentry alerting system used by Sussex i believe, would have helped prevent so much damage. Also I wonder if the crimms involved are planning a "Big Job" and thought the helicopter should be disabled?
How long before a replacement can be ordered and delivered? I expect a stand in will be found in the mean time so no loss of capability.
How long before a replacement can be ordered and delivered? I expect a stand in will be found in the mean time so no loss of capability.
The point here is that there are no spare aircraft.
Althugh 'discarded' WMPs last aircraft quickly went off to do new work in Hertfordshire and same too with East Midland's 135T1. The latter is a 'time expired' UK police design even when G-SUFF and its ilk become available on replacement this year.
Yes you can back pedal onto a 355 but you will need to retrain most of your pilots. They long sice gave up keeping 355s current on their licence. And who really wants to retrain onto a type offering 20 minute duration again?
If only for Huntnhound, disregard the specifics of this case and Surrey if you will.
Yes you can rely on mutual support from your neighbours but the whole concept of that is that 'you' will be there for them when the time comes for them to be on maintenance. When an airframe is off line for a long time that system goes way off line. Lose 1,000 hours pa and try and divide it among the surrounding operations and it just will not work. Most operations cannot just leap from 1,000 hours pa to 1,350 just like that as a long term option even if the needy are paying the bill. And that disregards that transit times to the 'off-site' location will be up. Many calls will simply not be worth attending.
Long term [and not too long one might hope] there is a need for ACPO and the Home Office to seek to allocate spare aircraft for 'down time'. It is debatable whether one 900 and one 135 will be enough. Industry has no spare aircraft like they used to produce when there were relatively cheap 'simply equipped' police aircraft sitting at Macs or with PAS.
What is needed is debate but as we all know debate takes forever... regional police air resources have been on the table since 1963 - every time the guard changes so does the plan. There is a new plan but when will that see the light of day 11 months short of a General Election?
Meanwhile a temporary solution needs to be found that does not require a new police role equipped EC135P2 [unavailable] or an AS355F2 [almost pointless].
Perhaps in this time of commercial downturn it is back to basics with a 'leather seat' EC135?2 simply equipped with a turret and searchlight. Potentially the 'on the shelf' spare fleet could be just that, simply equipped SPIFR airframes that operations could use during all technical downtimes.
And before the broadsides start.... what alternatives are there in the market today?
Althugh 'discarded' WMPs last aircraft quickly went off to do new work in Hertfordshire and same too with East Midland's 135T1. The latter is a 'time expired' UK police design even when G-SUFF and its ilk become available on replacement this year.
Yes you can back pedal onto a 355 but you will need to retrain most of your pilots. They long sice gave up keeping 355s current on their licence. And who really wants to retrain onto a type offering 20 minute duration again?
If only for Huntnhound, disregard the specifics of this case and Surrey if you will.
Yes you can rely on mutual support from your neighbours but the whole concept of that is that 'you' will be there for them when the time comes for them to be on maintenance. When an airframe is off line for a long time that system goes way off line. Lose 1,000 hours pa and try and divide it among the surrounding operations and it just will not work. Most operations cannot just leap from 1,000 hours pa to 1,350 just like that as a long term option even if the needy are paying the bill. And that disregards that transit times to the 'off-site' location will be up. Many calls will simply not be worth attending.
Long term [and not too long one might hope] there is a need for ACPO and the Home Office to seek to allocate spare aircraft for 'down time'. It is debatable whether one 900 and one 135 will be enough. Industry has no spare aircraft like they used to produce when there were relatively cheap 'simply equipped' police aircraft sitting at Macs or with PAS.
What is needed is debate but as we all know debate takes forever... regional police air resources have been on the table since 1963 - every time the guard changes so does the plan. There is a new plan but when will that see the light of day 11 months short of a General Election?
Meanwhile a temporary solution needs to be found that does not require a new police role equipped EC135P2 [unavailable] or an AS355F2 [almost pointless].
Perhaps in this time of commercial downturn it is back to basics with a 'leather seat' EC135?2 simply equipped with a turret and searchlight. Potentially the 'on the shelf' spare fleet could be just that, simply equipped SPIFR airframes that operations could use during all technical downtimes.
And before the broadsides start.... what alternatives are there in the market today?
Here is a link to help There are 3 variations of the product, the Guard ,Scout and Eurowall 50.
I also hope no one here thinks the attackers are to be admired, it would appear that as the machine was within a security aria & deemed to be safe.
As a private Co we have hired early versions of the product to secure expensive product that had to be left in the open.
SentryGuard by Sentry Electronics - portable security detector
SentryScout by Sentry Electronics
The Scout is an all weather motion detector for the protection of personnel and equipment. It uses highly developed Passive Infra Red detectors fitted inside a patented environmental housing to give outstanding performance and reliability. Camouflaged for additional concealment the Scout is ideal for the detection of intruders, escapees, insurgents, special forces etc. making it a valuable aid for the protection of stores, equipment and personnel
Rugged and versatile, the unit can be quickly folded up too make transportation easy. As Manufacturers of the Scout portable Intruder Detector we offer the most advanced device of its kind in today's market place. The design is based on a MOD requirement for a stable, reliable portable detector that can be carried folded up in the boot/trunk compartment of a medium sized saloon car; and provide a 60m curtain detection area. The units are completely self-contained and can be deployed within minutes.
The Scout provides 24/7 motion detection of unwanted intruders via a personal radio link. All types of radio can be use from simplex, duplex, trunked, and digital military bands on all frequencies throughout the licensed and military bandwidth.
All types of finish can be applied to camouflage the unit from green and black through to desert sand for use in any theatre of operation throughout the Globe. Its high specification electronics and PIR system, together with our patented housing technology, combine to alert the monitoring agency to the presence of unauthorized movement via its radio link. With a detection range in excess of 60 metres it is a versatile and rugged aid to the security force requirements at an operational base, both at home and overseas. Once deployed, the Scout can release valuable security manpower for other important duties.
With its variable battery technology the Scout can be deployed in any climatic condition from the frozen wastelands to the deserts and all variations in between.
How the Scout Works
The Scout's high precision processor and highly developed PIR system combine to alert personnel of unauthorized movement. The Infrared beam is projected in such a manner that it eliminates "creep" zones around its base and produces a detection corridor to a distance of 60m. Any movement within the covered detection corridor results in a message being transmitted to personnel. The warning message can be recorded directly into the Scout by the operator initially deploying the unit.
Under the Scout’s standard covert mode of operation, a person or vehicle passing through its infrared detection area will cause the unit to transmit a pre-installed message to the monitoring personnel via its radio link (GSM also available). As an additional option, the Scout can produce an audible alert or warning message from an optional built in loud speaker.
I also hope no one here thinks the attackers are to be admired, it would appear that as the machine was within a security aria & deemed to be safe.
As a private Co we have hired early versions of the product to secure expensive product that had to be left in the open.
SentryGuard by Sentry Electronics - portable security detector
SentryScout by Sentry Electronics
The Scout is an all weather motion detector for the protection of personnel and equipment. It uses highly developed Passive Infra Red detectors fitted inside a patented environmental housing to give outstanding performance and reliability. Camouflaged for additional concealment the Scout is ideal for the detection of intruders, escapees, insurgents, special forces etc. making it a valuable aid for the protection of stores, equipment and personnel
Rugged and versatile, the unit can be quickly folded up too make transportation easy. As Manufacturers of the Scout portable Intruder Detector we offer the most advanced device of its kind in today's market place. The design is based on a MOD requirement for a stable, reliable portable detector that can be carried folded up in the boot/trunk compartment of a medium sized saloon car; and provide a 60m curtain detection area. The units are completely self-contained and can be deployed within minutes.
The Scout provides 24/7 motion detection of unwanted intruders via a personal radio link. All types of radio can be use from simplex, duplex, trunked, and digital military bands on all frequencies throughout the licensed and military bandwidth.All types of finish can be applied to camouflage the unit from green and black through to desert sand for use in any theatre of operation throughout the Globe. Its high specification electronics and PIR system, together with our patented housing technology, combine to alert the monitoring agency to the presence of unauthorized movement via its radio link. With a detection range in excess of 60 metres it is a versatile and rugged aid to the security force requirements at an operational base, both at home and overseas. Once deployed, the Scout can release valuable security manpower for other important duties.
With its variable battery technology the Scout can be deployed in any climatic condition from the frozen wastelands to the deserts and all variations in between.
How the Scout Works
The Scout's high precision processor and highly developed PIR system combine to alert personnel of unauthorized movement. The Infrared beam is projected in such a manner that it eliminates "creep" zones around its base and produces a detection corridor to a distance of 60m. Any movement within the covered detection corridor results in a message being transmitted to personnel. The warning message can be recorded directly into the Scout by the operator initially deploying the unit.
Under the Scout’s standard covert mode of operation, a person or vehicle passing through its infrared detection area will cause the unit to transmit a pre-installed message to the monitoring personnel via its radio link (GSM also available). As an additional option, the Scout can produce an audible alert or warning message from an optional built in loud speaker.
Last edited by 500e; 10th Jun 2009 at 21:16.
Alarms are useful if you have people to react and in a position to react.
Can the 'defenders' intercept a fast moving object in time to halt the attack. Is the attack likely to take place at a time when a patrolling security vehicle is near enough to react and intercept?
Might a [police or civilian] police air observer be able or equipped to halt a an armed intruder let alone a vehicle of any kind travelling at 30-50mph when alerted? Ask Surrey.
As was proven, sensors might be useful as part of a collective of physical obstructions but in the end you still need the obstructed path/wall etc and some sort of ultimate threat. The latter of course is not going to happen in the UK.
Can the 'defenders' intercept a fast moving object in time to halt the attack. Is the attack likely to take place at a time when a patrolling security vehicle is near enough to react and intercept?
Might a [police or civilian] police air observer be able or equipped to halt a an armed intruder let alone a vehicle of any kind travelling at 30-50mph when alerted? Ask Surrey.
As was proven, sensors might be useful as part of a collective of physical obstructions but in the end you still need the obstructed path/wall etc and some sort of ultimate threat. The latter of course is not going to happen in the UK.
"Much as I would like to join in with a lively debate on some of the issues already being high-lighted in this incident, suffice as to say this is a major crime scene and a major criminal investigation is underway. It is wholly in-appropriate for those in the industry to speculate on any of the issues that drive such a devastating criminal act, and vitally important that the investigating team are allowed to carry out their work without distractions.
It is not a "major" investigation.
It is one of any number of on-going criminal investigations being done by the Police.
It is a huge embarrassment to the Police that is for sure!
Nothing said here, in the papers, on the news, or on the radio, nay not even in all the pubs in the country will "distract" the investigators, delay the investigation, or in any way harm the progress of the Dicks working the case.
If they are reading pprune they are being remiss in their official duties to begin with....as they are seeking "facts" and not mere suppostion and bile.
