Police Civilianisation of air support

[Retro Coupe]

I sell clockwork toys for a living and very satisfying it is too.

Paarmo has admitted something I've suspected all along, he is a wind-up merchant.

[mickjoebill]

Apologies to PAS, I only meant that the force that employ us train their own observers. PAARMOs last post says he asks if the job CAN be done by a direct entrant civilian...... Yes it can, any job can be done with the correct amount of training. I was a civilian until the RAF spent a fortune training me. Until that person gains experience of what the man on the ground needs, effectiveness is reduced. It makes more sense to recruit someone who has a bunch of experience in the first place. We are arguing just that point.

There are numerous civvies who have many hours operating aerial camera kit, who direct aircraft and ground units who would have no problem with the kit/flying/navigation side of the role.

No doubt that 2 years on the street would teach a young bloke a few things about criminal behavior, but I submit that the life experience of an older applicant wouldn't be too far behind a 20 something with a few years on the beat.


I believe the steepest learning curve for such applicants to be coming to grips with esoteric acronyms and arcane nomenclature..



mickjoebill

[therealpieboy]

I believe the steepest learning curve for such applicants to be coming to grips with esoteric acronyms and arcane nomenclature..

That and the Airwave radio, which most Officer's should know how to use on arrival to the unit.

PAARMO, Yes your original question was can a civilian do the Police observers job. It looks like the answer is yes. However, I would ask you two questions in response.

Can a Civilian EFFECTIVELY do a Police observers role?

If they both cost the same, why would you employ a civilian when you could have a well qualified Police officer?

Before you start on the cost I get about £35,000 gross PA and I'm on top whack. a scale six support staff member is on around the same money when you add shift allowance and weekend working. Scale six covers people like Police photographers and control room staff. Their level of technical knowledge is about the same as the observers, albeit in a diffrent field.

Unison are not going to allow Police staff air observers to be on much less than scale six. so once again I would ask you,

If they both cost the same, why would you employ a civilian when you could have a well qualified Police officer?

That's it game over


I also seel cheap clockwork toys if anyone wants one!!!

[J.A.F.O.]

therealpieboy

You're still guessing too high for Scale six with allowances but you're much nearer than paarmo.

[Letsby Avenue]

The best thing about this thread is all the ex mil police pilots who read it and would rather keep quiet...

The difference between a civilian and a police officer is the pension

[therealpieboy]

Letsby, Don't get him going on the pension thing, He (PAARMO) will convienently forget the 11% contribution we make towards our pension.

[Letsby Avenue]

Irrespective of who would make the best observer; policeman or civilian - Is the argument simply this, if the selection process were opened up to all, then diversity enters the equation. One would be forced to consider those chaps for whom a helping hand was felt necessary when the role demands a standard of excellence for all. Simply slotting 40 year old housewives or some of our less able ethnic chums into the rota simply to please witless HR types is a major distraction for all with a consequent reduction in efficiency. Once progressed into the second or third 'generation' the ASU will have suffered a massive dilution of expertise and will end up concentrating its efforts on child minding, pregnancy management, and endless 'on the job' training days.

[paarmo]

Pieman how long is the training course to be an air observer? How long does it take to train a Police Officer? Factor in the costs of the training and tell Unison that there is no equivalent job in the Police Service and " we will decide on the pay scale thank you for asking ".
Chief Officers have to account for the time spent by their Police Officers on a regular basis but do not have to do the same for civilian staf. No worries about downtime and inventing tasks to keep the notional time spent on the streets or in this case over the streets up to a reasonable level.
Well qualified Police Officers are in short supply if you believe what was reported by your Union/Federation at their recent conference so why not free another one up to Police and cover the job with a civilian.
As for pensions I belive that any person can pay into a pension and certainly Police Civilians are given the opportunity to do so.
As for 11% contributions do not bleat about it because the maximum that you could be made to pay is 15% and if the economy continues as it is then the call for 15% by Police Authorities may come sooner than you think.
As for your earlier post about employing a person and then he fails basic air observer training. I think your grasp as to what happens in the real word of employment is a little lacking. You fail you're out.
Another post from J2O suggests that he can see identify offences being committed from the air. Possibly driving offences but very little else. As I understand it the CPS ( a civilian operation ) actually tells you what to charge people with as Police have made so many mistakes in charging incorrectly in the past.
Budgie. Who did this meticulous study on civilian versus Police costs and what was their motivation for the study.
Get yourselves some real concrete evidence to support your jobs because the civies are coming boys.
PS looking at your address Letsby it would appear that you fall into the ethnic catergory.As for your other views I take it that Welsh Forces have not yet joined the 20th century yet let alone the 21st.

[Aerodynamik]

I think your grasp as to what happens in the real word of employment is a little lacking

Paarmo, as is yours when it comes to police air support, you have made that very clear.

[paarmo]

Is That It?

[bjcc]

Paarmo

Having been on the recieving end of Police Observers experience, I'd rather it was a man of the cloth I was talking too.

Firstly, as has been said many times by Police Observers on here, because they talk and think the same way. They have the experience I had, and knew what I could and couldn't do. When it came to car chases, again, they knew how I was going to drive, they were trained the same way, therefore knew what I would and would not do.

There has to be trust between the 2 ends of the equation, because the bionic budgie jockey had done my job, I trusted him. Would I feel the same way about a civvie? No.

Civvies, yes, ok, some good, most avarage and some awful. Take Civvie Comms officers for example. I've thrown more than one out of a the Divisional Control Room I was supervising, for being useless, only to have some idiot further up the food chain put him back. Fortunatly, the majority of Communications staff in the large Force I worked in were Police Officers who rotated in and out of Comms duties. That mix of experience, of being on both ends made for better comms officers.

Leaving efficency aside, a civvie can do one job, and one only. If he/she is employed as a comms officer, thats it, if the front office Civvie goes sick, you can't redeploy, you can't get them to do both jobs. A Police Officer can and at my stations often did.

Last point against them is, and I can only speak for the Met, but our civvies pension was non contrabutory. So that has to be added to the cost, along with additional pay for weekends, nights etc, again not something you pay a police officer.

So in terms of flexability, experience and cost, there is no good reason to employ a civvie. The only argument in favour of it is to put more police on the streets, but as the numbers released would be a drop in the ocean, thats really not a good argument, when compared against the loss it would entail.

[MightyGem]

Letsby, did you get my PM re pension???

[paarmo]

BJCC have you never worked with a useless Police Officer? Have you ever tried to get rid of one? Unless he commits a criminal offence then as I understand it there are two chances of getting rid of him, fat and no.
These useless civilians who you ejected from the control room. Did you actually do anything constructive about them apart from throwing a strop and chucking them out? Did you give them extra training or support? Did you bring their failings to their notice? Did you record their failings and how you tried to retrain and support them?
No you did what all Police Officers tend to do, according to this post anyway, call them useless and try and move them along.
Things have changed in the world since Ashes to Ashes and it would appear that it has passed some of you by.

[jayteeto]

Its easier to get someone promoted than get rid of them. Works every time!!

[therealpieboy]

A Freudian Slip!!

No you did what all Police Officers tend to do, according to this post anyway

At last it looks like PAARMO has shown his true colours, I have no doubt that at some stage PAARMO has had a bad experience of the Police or even Police Air operations. His continued reluctance to nail is colours to the mast is telling.

I still havn't had a PM about a visit to the unit and s/he is not that far away from me!!

Come on PAARMO tell us your real beef?

[MAN777]

So which UK forces have (or planning to have) Civvie Observers ?

[paarmo]

Dear Pie person.
I have no axe to grind and no ulterior motive for my comments. The British Police Service is the only single tier and in all but name only national police service in the Western World. To single out Spain as an example they have three tiers of police. The Guarda Civil deal with remote areas , street crime , speeding on motorways , riots and border patrols. All Guarda helicopters(and boats) are flown by Guarda Officers with Guarda Observers.The National Police deal with cross border offences and also VIP and royal protection and the Policia Locale deal with other offences not dealt with by the others. A complete mess to the outsider and is it any wonder that the alleged crime rate in Spain is claimed to be much less than that in England and Wales. Nobody seems to check any of the figures which are produced.
The Guards are are para military organisation and live in barracks in the main.
Compare that with Britain at the moment. Local Authorities are setting up their own local pseudo police and the Police themselves have employed what can only be described as Fred Karnos Army to patrol the streets. Why? Because Police Officers are very expensive and take a long time to produce.
Core policing can only be done by Police Officers and the only way to do it is to free up all Police Officers possible to do it and sub contract other duties to civilians.
If you don't like that scenario would you fancy being a Guard in Spain and live in barracks under strict para military discipline.

[Coconutty]

Paarmo - congratulations - you certainly have the knack of stirring up some lively comments, but I do have to take exception to your comment :

[Core policing can only be done by Police Officers and the only way to do it is to free up all Police Officers possible to do it and sub contract other duties to civilians.

Really ? - That is the law according to who ? - You ?

The ONLY way ? - Naaah - If more "proper" Police Officers were employed, i.e the establishment were increased, then that would do the trick too - surely ?
( ignoring the argument that Police Air Obsevers ARE involved in Core Policing - from the air ).

You do seem to be getting a little emotive, and on the face of it appear to have some sort of an axe to grind against warranted Police Officers employed as Police Air Support Unit Observers. It is of course your right to have such an opinion, but it seems that those "in the know" disagree with you, and that no matter what is discussed here, you will not be disuaded from your opinion.

I would agree that there are various roles performed by Police Officers that should be examined to determine if they could be performed by a civillian, freeing up that Police Officer to patrol the streets, ( in fact this question is often considered - particularly in light of financial cutbacks ).

The real difficulty is in determining exactly which roles these are, and it seems that the role of Police Observer has been considered by the vast majority of Police forces and REJECTED.

In this day and age of accountability you can bet your bottom dollar that it is not just the employment costs that have been looked at in reaching this conclusion, but the effectiveness of the service provided too.

Most Air Support Units operate with 10 to 12 Police Officer observers, depending on size of force, operating hours etc, and releasing those Officers to patrol the streets will only have a minimal effect, on what you describe as "Core Policing".
This needs to be balanced against the cost of recruiting, training and equipping new civillian staff, plus any possible ( but not guaranteed ) savings in salary, and also taking into account the potential for reduction in quality of service, loss of experience, and loss of confidence in the service provided etc.

It is easy to say "Civilianise the role of Police Observer", and I am convinced that if doing so would prove to be cost effective AND would have no detrimental effect on the service provided, then more Police forces would have done so by now, and those that have, would not have regretted that decision, and be looking at returning to employment of only warranted Police Officer Observers at the earliest oportunity.

[paarmo]

Dear Luverly Bunch,
I say that this is the only way to find core policing numbers. Face facts. There are no more establishments for Police Forces. You are not going to get any more money even in the medium to long term and in fact in real terms your money will fall so the chances of employing any more Police Officers are remote.In the future real Police Officers are going to be as rare as rocking horse s***.
It follows therefore that every possible way to redeploy Police Officers will be sought which includes observers and who knows there may even be civilian Chief Constables.

[ShyTorque]

Speaking as an ex member of HM Forces, surely every police officer already is a civilian.