Police Civilianisation of air support
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Yeah I can see theres a big work load for the crew on UK ships and obviosuly theres no way of cutting that down, I never actually meant chop the crew down, I was just trying to work out what the U.S crew have to operate and between how many next to the UK crew.
No its a fair point, I didnt realise most of the UK Police units were operating at nearly MAUW, I thought there would be plenty of power in hand to be honest. And if thats the case theres the first and perhaps only argument for the twins, no point debating for something that cant do the job right!
I know the flir system is invaluable as is all the other kit onboard.
I wonder why they havent tried making the kit lighter, the Japenese are pretty good at that sort of stuff, Technology moves on in leaps and bounds, I mean a 50" LCD TV now weighs less than an old 21"!
I know what you mean about the mounting of it all, its like a control room on its own for the rear observer in the back, little room for much else.
Its a fair point, I think the UK and the U.S are very very different enviroments to fly in, personally I've only flown in Florida for a little go but all the straight roads and highways etc must make it much easier to Navigate vehicle chases and such.
Thanks for your thoughts
No its a fair point, I didnt realise most of the UK Police units were operating at nearly MAUW, I thought there would be plenty of power in hand to be honest. And if thats the case theres the first and perhaps only argument for the twins, no point debating for something that cant do the job right!
I know the flir system is invaluable as is all the other kit onboard.
I wonder why they havent tried making the kit lighter, the Japenese are pretty good at that sort of stuff, Technology moves on in leaps and bounds, I mean a 50" LCD TV now weighs less than an old 21"!
I know what you mean about the mounting of it all, its like a control room on its own for the rear observer in the back, little room for much else.
Its a fair point, I think the UK and the U.S are very very different enviroments to fly in, personally I've only flown in Florida for a little go but all the straight roads and highways etc must make it much easier to Navigate vehicle chases and such.
Thanks for your thoughts
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Re the kit question and single v light twin debate.
Several years ago, I flew some US Secret Service blokes on a recce for a official visit. The aircraft was an EC135T1 with a fairly "standard" UK police fit. They brought a ropy-looking, small 25 cent digital camera but they put it away when they saw what we could do for them in the imagery sense.
The Americans told us that they usually went to places in the States that only had a few bino-equipped B206-class machines and expected the same in the UK. They were knocked out by our "quality over quantity" approach it what would now be seen as an older aircraft.
However, I agree that the new equipment does come at a price in weight.
Several years ago, I flew some US Secret Service blokes on a recce for a official visit. The aircraft was an EC135T1 with a fairly "standard" UK police fit. They brought a ropy-looking, small 25 cent digital camera but they put it away when they saw what we could do for them in the imagery sense.
The Americans told us that they usually went to places in the States that only had a few bino-equipped B206-class machines and expected the same in the UK. They were knocked out by our "quality over quantity" approach it what would now be seen as an older aircraft.
However, I agree that the new equipment does come at a price in weight.
Coming back to the R-44 issue, anyone checked out the Robbo website and downloaded the brochure for the R-44 Raven II police helicopter? Might be interesting.
"Technology moves on in leaps and bounds"
R44bloke - quite true. Sadly the CAA, EASA, and ECUK's design department move on in small, stumbling steps documented to the Nth degree and desperately trying to keep up with what the customer wants. You also need to be aware that, if it isn't made in batches of thousands then it is ludicrously expensive. Police Air Support in the UK is where it is today because we have had the last 20 odd years to find out what does and doesn't work, what is and isn't safe and what's just to damn big or heavy to carry. Which brings us back to the experience thing again.
Paarmo - had a chance to check the figures and I was wrong - should have read 8 landings and 14 arrests - 8th April 08 to 8th April 09.
R44bloke - quite true. Sadly the CAA, EASA, and ECUK's design department move on in small, stumbling steps documented to the Nth degree and desperately trying to keep up with what the customer wants. You also need to be aware that, if it isn't made in batches of thousands then it is ludicrously expensive. Police Air Support in the UK is where it is today because we have had the last 20 odd years to find out what does and doesn't work, what is and isn't safe and what's just to damn big or heavy to carry. Which brings us back to the experience thing again.
Paarmo - had a chance to check the figures and I was wrong - should have read 8 landings and 14 arrests - 8th April 08 to 8th April 09.
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Police Staff Vs Police Officers
PAARMO,
what you have to think about before you make sweeping statements about the cost of Police staff versus the cost of Police Officers.
Police officers £35k P.A. yes expensive I'll give you that, however Police staff, starting at around 22k basic, on top of that they will get 20% shift allowance plus weekend enhancements, some pay double time on sundays, more annual leave days than Police officers.
Suddenly Police Staff are not that cheap. Now take into account the fact that Police officers are on duty 24/7 they can be kept on after shift, they can be contacted at home at any time and told to get to work. Police Officers have a stringent disipline code covering, quite rightly Alcohol levels and drug use.
Whilst the Police do their level best to save money, civilianization is not always the cheapest options, many departments that have been civilianized are now going back to Police Officers.
what you have to think about before you make sweeping statements about the cost of Police staff versus the cost of Police Officers.
Police officers £35k P.A. yes expensive I'll give you that, however Police staff, starting at around 22k basic, on top of that they will get 20% shift allowance plus weekend enhancements, some pay double time on sundays, more annual leave days than Police officers.
Suddenly Police Staff are not that cheap. Now take into account the fact that Police officers are on duty 24/7 they can be kept on after shift, they can be contacted at home at any time and told to get to work. Police Officers have a stringent disipline code covering, quite rightly Alcohol levels and drug use.
Whilst the Police do their level best to save money, civilianization is not always the cheapest options, many departments that have been civilianized are now going back to Police Officers.
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Having spent many years flying Police ops here's my two penn'orth.
Real bobbies would rather be talking to real bobbies in the aircraft. Plus there were times when we landed and an arrest was made by the (real) bobby from the aircraft. My personal feeling is that Police units should be staffed by members of Her Majesty's Constabulary. But that's just my personal feeling.
And who is this pie person? How dare you!
Real bobbies would rather be talking to real bobbies in the aircraft. Plus there were times when we landed and an arrest was made by the (real) bobby from the aircraft. My personal feeling is that Police units should be staffed by members of Her Majesty's Constabulary. But that's just my personal feeling.
And who is this pie person? How dare you!
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Who is this PAARMO bloke??? Immobilisers have made things 10 times worse up here. If they wanted a car in the past, they hot wired it, they then moved on to hook and cane burglaries to get keys. That got too time consuming, so now the official name is confrontational thefts. The latest MO is to kick the front door in and beat up the homeowner until they produce the keys. Gender doesn't matter. It is not worth owning a high powered sports car around here, they WILL have it eventually. Ask my neighbours. You do not know what you are talking about.
1 v 2 observers?? I'll tell you what, show me somebody who can keep the camera on a car doing 100mph through the narrow streets of anfield AND keep up a street by street commentary whilst reading the A to Z AND change radio frequencies when going from area to area and I will buy that person a lot of beer and ask him/her to join my flight. Some stuff can be done with one, when it REALLY matters you need two..... end of story.
PS. I would like to think that I could do an observers job to an acceptable standard if I stopped piloting, I am not a bobby. We have landed to arrest twice in 5 years.
1 v 2 observers?? I'll tell you what, show me somebody who can keep the camera on a car doing 100mph through the narrow streets of anfield AND keep up a street by street commentary whilst reading the A to Z AND change radio frequencies when going from area to area and I will buy that person a lot of beer and ask him/her to join my flight. Some stuff can be done with one, when it REALLY matters you need two..... end of story.
PS. I would like to think that I could do an observers job to an acceptable standard if I stopped piloting, I am not a bobby. We have landed to arrest twice in 5 years.
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I would like to think that I could do an observers job to an acceptable standard if I stopped piloting, I am not a bobby. We have landed to arrest twice in 5 years.
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Agreed absolutely, but at the moment I would not be able to apply if I couldn't pilot anymore. So is a comprimise needed??
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Yorkshire
Just thought I'd point out (to defend) Yorkshire. You may be interested to know that West Yorkshire is quite busy. The busiest with only one helicopter maybe! And not so much rural.
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Yorkshire Busiest
I seem to recall this being written recently, think it was PA news that gave the official heads up that West Yorkshire's aircraft was the busiest in the UK and with only one aircraft a 902.
Since it was PA news that started this thread, he may wish to comment on this one.
Since it was PA news that started this thread, he may wish to comment on this one.
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Car crime methods evolve !
Years ago - 1970's - Ford Cortina / Escort - 1 key would start just about any of them. No damage. 
A few years on - Austin Metro - steering column lock more difficult to "jiggle" ( more pins in the tumbler ) so a new method evolved of bodging a screwdriver hole in the door skin to access the door locking rods, and then "scaffing" the steering column lock and using the screwdriver to turn the switch box ( minus it's lock ) and start the engine.
Car manufacturers then beefed up the door locks with steel re-inforcing plates, and introduced micro-chips in the key fob linked to an immobiliser so that door wouldn't unlock and the engine would not start without the correct key being present.
This resulted in more of the "Car-Key" burglaries where the keys are stolen first - either from the owner directly, at a petrol station forecourt, stationary at traffic lights ( "jamming" ) from handbags / coat pockets etc., or by the hook & cane method through the owners letter box if keys are left in view, or even breaking into the owners house and searching for the keys or threatening the owner to hand them over.
What are car companies doing now ? - Introducing "biometric security" - where the owner / legitimate user will have to scan their thumb / finger print onto a dashboard reader. What will ( some ) car thieves do ? -
Likely knock the owner out and physically remove a finger or thumb !
Trust me this WILL happen - those who are out stealing high powered cars with these new security systems really don't care !
Anyone got a MkII Cortina for sale
Now - what's' all that got to do with civillianising the DUEO job at West Mids ?
A few years on - Austin Metro - steering column lock more difficult to "jiggle" ( more pins in the tumbler ) so a new method evolved of bodging a screwdriver hole in the door skin to access the door locking rods, and then "scaffing" the steering column lock and using the screwdriver to turn the switch box ( minus it's lock ) and start the engine.
Car manufacturers then beefed up the door locks with steel re-inforcing plates, and introduced micro-chips in the key fob linked to an immobiliser so that door wouldn't unlock and the engine would not start without the correct key being present.
This resulted in more of the "Car-Key" burglaries where the keys are stolen first - either from the owner directly, at a petrol station forecourt, stationary at traffic lights ( "jamming" ) from handbags / coat pockets etc., or by the hook & cane method through the owners letter box if keys are left in view, or even breaking into the owners house and searching for the keys or threatening the owner to hand them over.
What are car companies doing now ? - Introducing "biometric security" - where the owner / legitimate user will have to scan their thumb / finger print onto a dashboard reader. What will ( some ) car thieves do ? -
Likely knock the owner out and physically remove a finger or thumb !
Trust me this WILL happen - those who are out stealing high powered cars with these new security systems really don't care !
Anyone got a MkII Cortina for sale
Now - what's' all that got to do with civillianising the DUEO job at West Mids ?
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Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that.
Whoateallthe pies tells us that Police Officers on the ground like to talk to Police Officers in the air. A spurious argument as they were probably sent to the job in the first place by a civilian in the Control Room and as it is a disciplined service you get told to talk to whoever is in the best position to see what is happening whether you like talking to that person or not.
Therealpieboy increases the wages of the civilian air observer but fails to mention that any new civilian staff can be employed on whatever wages and conditions are deemed correct for the post.Unlike Police Officers whose wages are centrally negotiated. It may be in more prosperous times that the wages being offered are more than a Police Officer's but that is the market force and was not the question in the first place.
It boils down to the fact that there is no reason why a suitably qualified civilian cannot be employed as an air observer , gain experience alongside an experienced crew and then continue to do the job until his pension. ( a lot less than a Police pension )
If you want him to land and arrest people you could make him a Special who has more powers than these "Mickey Mouse" uniform carriers I see wandering about holding hands and chatting to each other as if they are on a walk to church.
Can't remember who said it but no I have never been frightened by an air observer , in fact only one person has ever frightened me at all and he is now in a secure hospital and will continue to be there until he is at least 75. Neither have I been turned down as an air observer. I have only ever been turned down for one job in my life and I still get my revenge by making sure I park my shopping trolley as far away from the shop on the car park as possible.
Whoateallthe pies tells us that Police Officers on the ground like to talk to Police Officers in the air. A spurious argument as they were probably sent to the job in the first place by a civilian in the Control Room and as it is a disciplined service you get told to talk to whoever is in the best position to see what is happening whether you like talking to that person or not.
Therealpieboy increases the wages of the civilian air observer but fails to mention that any new civilian staff can be employed on whatever wages and conditions are deemed correct for the post.Unlike Police Officers whose wages are centrally negotiated. It may be in more prosperous times that the wages being offered are more than a Police Officer's but that is the market force and was not the question in the first place.
It boils down to the fact that there is no reason why a suitably qualified civilian cannot be employed as an air observer , gain experience alongside an experienced crew and then continue to do the job until his pension. ( a lot less than a Police pension )
If you want him to land and arrest people you could make him a Special who has more powers than these "Mickey Mouse" uniform carriers I see wandering about holding hands and chatting to each other as if they are on a walk to church.
Can't remember who said it but no I have never been frightened by an air observer , in fact only one person has ever frightened me at all and he is now in a secure hospital and will continue to be there until he is at least 75. Neither have I been turned down as an air observer. I have only ever been turned down for one job in my life and I still get my revenge by making sure I park my shopping trolley as far away from the shop on the car park as possible.
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A valid reason
Paarmo, I didn't want to bite but you are a very funny and obviously brave man who deals really well with his 'issues'. Anyway, sorry to get personal but the real reason civilian observers (ab-initio) would not work is that they would have little or no forces/service type work ethic and would be rubbish. Classy argument hey?
We have visited all this before but it won't go away because senior police officers and authorities see reform of Air Support Units as a CV ticking tool. Cynical? Yes.
A question I asked before is 'Would the aircraft still benefit from CAA easements and police operating techniques etc. if manned entirely by civilians?' Obviously those in power can change the rules if need be but the general public have come to expect the police policing. PCSOs and civvy JAFOs? Get real.
Obviously it's in some close-to retiring observers interests for this to go ahead. Cynical? Yes.
We have visited all this before but it won't go away because senior police officers and authorities see reform of Air Support Units as a CV ticking tool. Cynical? Yes.
A question I asked before is 'Would the aircraft still benefit from CAA easements and police operating techniques etc. if manned entirely by civilians?' Obviously those in power can change the rules if need be but the general public have come to expect the police policing. PCSOs and civvy JAFOs? Get real.
Obviously it's in some close-to retiring observers interests for this to go ahead. Cynical? Yes.
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Car crime
"Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that."
Paarmo, what would you rather, your car nicked off the drive or stabbed in the eye because you would not hand over your keys or your house ransacked in the search for them?
The latter sounds worse to me.
Paarmo, what would you rather, your car nicked off the drive or stabbed in the eye because you would not hand over your keys or your house ransacked in the search for them?
The latter sounds worse to me.
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Having civvies as Observers is no different to having PCSOs replacing PCs, teaching assistants replacing teachers, custody officers replacing prison officers and 'traffic officers' replacing police traffic officers. It is all dumbing down by this government of skilled roles.
I have no doubt that that they all do reasonable jobs but personally I would rather see a FULLY trained, experienced and capable person doing the roles.
I have no doubt that that they all do reasonable jobs but personally I would rather see a FULLY trained, experienced and capable person doing the roles.
Aerodynamik
I think that you'll find that those civilians currently employed in the role together with their pilot and air observer colleagues plus the officers that they support might take umbrage at the implication that they are not fully trained, experienced or capable.
I don't imagine any of them would advocate full civilianisation nor totally ab initio recruitment of observers directly from civvy street, either; but that does not mean that those currently in the role are not capable.
personally I would rather see a FULLY trained, experienced and capable person doing the roles.
I don't imagine any of them would advocate full civilianisation nor totally ab initio recruitment of observers directly from civvy street, either; but that does not mean that those currently in the role are not capable.