Heli ditch North Sea G-REDL: NOT condolences
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Lisanza
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe any such action would be taken by EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) as the responsible organisation, although CAA(UK) may still have some local powers to deal with local situations.
Ground them as they did the Boeing 777 post Heathrow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you look historically at crashes sadly flight crew error (and I'm not talking about this accident) is a common cause. Do we ground all aircraft flown by pilots!!!!!!!!!!!
Most North sea accidents for technical reasons have been one off accidents. Having just reread the accident report on the Chinook G-BWFC it is obvious just how thin the safety margin can be even when everyone thinks all the boxs have been ticked.
Complex machinery will always throw up the unexpected.
When you look historically at crashes sadly flight crew error (and I'm not talking about this accident) is a common cause. Do we ground all aircraft flown by pilots!!!!!!!!!!!
Most North sea accidents for technical reasons have been one off accidents. Having just reread the accident report on the Chinook G-BWFC it is obvious just how thin the safety margin can be even when everyone thinks all the boxs have been ticked.
Complex machinery will always throw up the unexpected.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ENGLAND
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PLB's
Thanks Helicraig,
Out of interest I understand that fixed wing CG policy is not to initiate your PLB unless seperated from other crew members, saves, on clutter and battery power. Obviously, setting it off if alone even if in doubt. Wristband PLB's have always been a nightmare, I had just assumed they were a well stowed PLB that you had to want to set off and that wasn'y prone to accidents.
Out of interest I understand that fixed wing CG policy is not to initiate your PLB unless seperated from other crew members, saves, on clutter and battery power. Obviously, setting it off if alone even if in doubt. Wristband PLB's have always been a nightmare, I had just assumed they were a well stowed PLB that you had to want to set off and that wasn'y prone to accidents.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: scotland
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'Brown and Alcock' said ...
We can hardly call these facts, "unconfirmed", "appears", "same type"???
It was not the same type. And the harsh reality is this, whilst BP have relieved Bond of their contractual obligations for the time being, BP employees are still being moved to and from the North sea on L2 machines, albeit L2's painted in a different colour.
The two incidents involved different AC types, and vastly different circumstances.
People like us working in the business understand the differences, but Joe Public - watching the 'expert' media coverage - only see Red aircraft in the water.
The facts so far.
Mayday - as yet unconfirmed whether this came from A/C or oil support vessel.
Rescue - was launched immediately by RIB.
The A/C appears to have broken up on contact with the sea. This does not appear to be a controlled ditching. It may not have been survivable according to eye witnesses.
Super Puma - Bond have temp grounded all Puma as a precuation. The accident earlier this year appears to be wholly unrelated save that it involved same operator and same type. This is not surpising when you consider number of flights flown per day out of ABZand the Numbers of Puma in use.
Mayday - as yet unconfirmed whether this came from A/C or oil support vessel.
Rescue - was launched immediately by RIB.
The A/C appears to have broken up on contact with the sea. This does not appear to be a controlled ditching. It may not have been survivable according to eye witnesses.
Super Puma - Bond have temp grounded all Puma as a precuation. The accident earlier this year appears to be wholly unrelated save that it involved same operator and same type. This is not surpising when you consider number of flights flown per day out of ABZand the Numbers of Puma in use.
It was not the same type. And the harsh reality is this, whilst BP have relieved Bond of their contractual obligations for the time being, BP employees are still being moved to and from the North sea on L2 machines, albeit L2's painted in a different colour.
The two incidents involved different AC types, and vastly different circumstances.
People like us working in the business understand the differences, but Joe Public - watching the 'expert' media coverage - only see Red aircraft in the water.
Quote the rest of my post Jock.....the part where I talk about inviting folks into the hangar to see how we do business and work to break down the them and us attitude and the other suggestions I had for improving the situation overall.
If you wish to take the measure of a post....take a full measure.
But...if you don't like riding the helicopter to work there is an alternative means of transport....the boat. It is because the boat is the lesser choice is why the helicopters are in use instead of there being crew boats.
If you wish to take the measure of a post....take a full measure.
But...if you don't like riding the helicopter to work there is an alternative means of transport....the boat. It is because the boat is the lesser choice is why the helicopters are in use instead of there being crew boats.
Originally Posted by SASless
How many million flight hours is that for the fleet?
How many million flight hours is that for the fleet?
I/C
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
No, that figure was for the full fleet of 700+ Super Pumas, since the previous posts were mixing L1s and L2s. Haven't seen a breakdown for L2 hours only.
I/C
I/C
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Cornwall
Age: 77
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe I am being naďve but to me there are significant differences between the AS332L, AS332L2 and the EC225. Yes, they are all the same family and all initially derived from the SA330J Puma but the media say that they are the "same" aircraft. IMHO, they aren't.
Yes FCL lump types together and I have S76A, B, C on my licence but I have only ever flown the S76A (Allison engine version). Wouldn't know what to do in a C model
Mind you though, I still have the Ws55s3 on my licence
Yes FCL lump types together and I have S76A, B, C on my licence but I have only ever flown the S76A (Allison engine version). Wouldn't know what to do in a C model
Mind you though, I still have the Ws55s3 on my licence
Last edited by TipCap; 3rd Apr 2009 at 06:50. Reason: spelling!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Far far away
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I agree, there are considerable differences between AS332L/L1, AS332L2 and EC225. An L/L1 pilot wouldn't know what to do in an L2 and an L2 pilot wouldn't know how to operate the EC225.
Incidentally, my JAA ATPL(H) issued in Norway separates L/L1 and L2., I'm qualified on both.
Incidentally, my JAA ATPL(H) issued in Norway separates L/L1 and L2., I'm qualified on both.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Europe trying to enjoy retirement “YES”
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to make a comparisons between this recent tragedy and the Canadian one. The openness and concern showed by company and authority in Canada verses the seemingly colder and less informative approach in the UK.
O
O
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Far far away
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know much about how the company and the authorities handled the Canadian accident but I do think it is quite fantastic at this time to state: "Bond spokesman Dick Mutch said: "This is not an aircraft issue" (Daily Record) I hope he has been misinterpreted.
In my opinion, and I am not going to speculate further, it has everything to do with the aircraft.
Regarding the discussion on grounding, please read this constructive comment by Kieran Daly:
• Kieran Daly is the executive editor of Flight, publisher of Flight International, Airline Business and Air Transport Intelligence magazines.
In my opinion, and I am not going to speculate further, it has everything to do with the aircraft.
Regarding the discussion on grounding, please read this constructive comment by Kieran Daly:
North Sea helicopter disaster: 'Very unusual for fleet to be ordered out of sky after mystery accident'
ANALYSIS
Published Date: 03 April 2009
By Kieran Daly
THE type of Super Puma that crashed on Wednesday is considered to have a very good safety record and is well thought of, both by the North Sea operating community and by the offshore workforce.
The problem is the regulators now have an accident where the initial indications tend to point to a mechanical failure: something seems to have happened very suddenly and shows signs of having ended in a catastrophic impact.
It is very unusual for the regulatory authorities to ground a fleet of aircraft because of an unexplained accident.
They normally take mandatory grounding action only when they have discovered a definite fault that may affect other aircraft. The reason for that is experience shows most accidents are one-off events, or at least have unique aspects to them.
That said, there are accidents where there is a generic fault with the aircraft. There was an accident off the Canadian coast earlier this month involving a Sikorsky S-92 helicopter. This is arguably the most modern civil helicopter flying today.
Even though it's the latest and greatest helicopter, one of these crashed, with a loss of 17 lives, as a result of a failure of a single metal fastener in the main gearbox. The entire fleet, including those in the North Sea, were grounded until the operators had incorporated the technical fix.
The difficulty for Bond and BP is their workforces become very concerned about flying in the aircraft. So, realistically, it's difficult for Bond to do anything except ground them, whether they think there is a safety issue or not.
The important thing to realise about helicopters generally is that they have unique vulnerabilities that don't exist in conventional, fixed-wing aircraft.
Because the engines and the rotors are separate from each other, you need a pretty complex mechanism to transfer power from the engines to the rotors.
That mechanism is vulnerable to failure, and if it fails then it almost certainly has very serious consequences. That is a major reason why they have a poorer safety record than fixed-wing aircraft.
However, over the past ten to 15 years the industry has made enormous advances by using Health and Usage Monitoring Systems.
This consists of a series of detectors placed all over the helicopter. They look for tiny changes in the vibration of the helicopter from one flight to the next, which may give an early indication of a serious problem before it can cause a disaster, and it brings huge safety benefits. However, this makes it doubly disturbing if you do have an accident that is caused by mechanical failure.
But it is important to mention that experience shows, in every accident, the initial indicators can be misleading, so we will have to wait and see what the cause was.
I think the CAA probably will not ground the aircraft, but you don't have to be an expert to realise that if you are Bond then it is difficult to avoid because of emotional and industrial-relations reasons as much as any safety reason.
ANALYSIS
Published Date: 03 April 2009
By Kieran Daly
THE type of Super Puma that crashed on Wednesday is considered to have a very good safety record and is well thought of, both by the North Sea operating community and by the offshore workforce.
The problem is the regulators now have an accident where the initial indications tend to point to a mechanical failure: something seems to have happened very suddenly and shows signs of having ended in a catastrophic impact.
It is very unusual for the regulatory authorities to ground a fleet of aircraft because of an unexplained accident.
They normally take mandatory grounding action only when they have discovered a definite fault that may affect other aircraft. The reason for that is experience shows most accidents are one-off events, or at least have unique aspects to them.
That said, there are accidents where there is a generic fault with the aircraft. There was an accident off the Canadian coast earlier this month involving a Sikorsky S-92 helicopter. This is arguably the most modern civil helicopter flying today.
Even though it's the latest and greatest helicopter, one of these crashed, with a loss of 17 lives, as a result of a failure of a single metal fastener in the main gearbox. The entire fleet, including those in the North Sea, were grounded until the operators had incorporated the technical fix.
The difficulty for Bond and BP is their workforces become very concerned about flying in the aircraft. So, realistically, it's difficult for Bond to do anything except ground them, whether they think there is a safety issue or not.
The important thing to realise about helicopters generally is that they have unique vulnerabilities that don't exist in conventional, fixed-wing aircraft.
Because the engines and the rotors are separate from each other, you need a pretty complex mechanism to transfer power from the engines to the rotors.
That mechanism is vulnerable to failure, and if it fails then it almost certainly has very serious consequences. That is a major reason why they have a poorer safety record than fixed-wing aircraft.
However, over the past ten to 15 years the industry has made enormous advances by using Health and Usage Monitoring Systems.
This consists of a series of detectors placed all over the helicopter. They look for tiny changes in the vibration of the helicopter from one flight to the next, which may give an early indication of a serious problem before it can cause a disaster, and it brings huge safety benefits. However, this makes it doubly disturbing if you do have an accident that is caused by mechanical failure.
But it is important to mention that experience shows, in every accident, the initial indicators can be misleading, so we will have to wait and see what the cause was.
I think the CAA probably will not ground the aircraft, but you don't have to be an expert to realise that if you are Bond then it is difficult to avoid because of emotional and industrial-relations reasons as much as any safety reason.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 3rd Apr 2009 at 20:58.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Monkeys ride bikes, ever seen one fix a puncture??
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good article there, however one point I would add is that the HUMS is like any other tool, it is only as good as the operator. My issue with HUMS has always been that there are several different flavours, dependant on aircraft type, and ultimately the HUMS data is analysed in detail rarely.. i.e. after an incident, otherwise the crews download the memory card, wait for the all clear from the groundstation and off you go. Whilst the "HUMS Guru's" at the likes of Bristow, CHC, Norsk etc are all very well trained and very capable guys, Their expertise can only be brought to bear on isloated incidents, simply due to workload, so it os entirely possible for a developing defect to be missed until it is too late, since HUMS sensors and more importantly vibration thresholds are programmed to look for a specific defect, within a specified frequency band.. anything outside of that, and its up to the HUMS Manager to spot using experience and a bit of system knowledge. I mentioned earlier the Dauphin incident, where a main ring gear in the MRGB cracked, this was a previously unheard of failure mode, but when the data was examined retrospectively, there it was.. for all to see. The upshot was that the monitoring system was updated to include the new failure mode, but only after a serious incident. (My use of "incident" rather than "Accident" is because I can't recall which aircraft was invloved.. French operator I think, but don't want to over dramatise)
Can anyone shed any light on the "Unsupervised Machine learning" HUMS technology that Smiths were working on? This was a system which used Neural networks and data cluster / mining techniques to constantly update its own thresholds. Did it ever evolve into a useable system? I ask because I have been out of North Sea ops for 3 or 4 years now, and I'm not up to speed with the very latest.
My point being monitoring is a good diagnostic tool, and it has contributed greatly to safety in offshore Helicopters.. Its just not fail-safe.
Can anyone shed any light on the "Unsupervised Machine learning" HUMS technology that Smiths were working on? This was a system which used Neural networks and data cluster / mining techniques to constantly update its own thresholds. Did it ever evolve into a useable system? I ask because I have been out of North Sea ops for 3 or 4 years now, and I'm not up to speed with the very latest.
My point being monitoring is a good diagnostic tool, and it has contributed greatly to safety in offshore Helicopters.. Its just not fail-safe.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Galway
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sasless,
I agree the rest of your post was more understanding, for want of a better word.
But that just made your opening gambit all the more confusing & indeed unpalatable.
In any case, probably best to move on.
I agree the rest of your post was more understanding, for want of a better word.
But that just made your opening gambit all the more confusing & indeed unpalatable.
In any case, probably best to move on.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Times article
Desperate mayday emerges from doomed helicopter - Times Online
Desperate mayday emerges from doomed helicopter - Times Online
April 3, 2009
Desperate mayday emerges from doomed helicopter
Lindsay McIntosh
The final desperate message transmitted by the doomed Bond Offshore helicopter just moments before it plunged into the North Sea was revealed today.
The last seconds of the 14 passengers and two crew emerged as specialist recovery vehicles combed the seabed for the remains of the craft. The bodies of the eight men who have not yet been found are believed to be trapped inside the Super Puma which crashed off the coast of Aberdeenshire on its return from BP's Miller oilfield on Wednesday.
Before it dropped into the sea in "a hard landing", the captain managed to sound a mayday which was heard by all boats and helicopters in the area at the time. One pilot, who asked not to be named, said he heard: "Mayday, mayday - oh, f***". Then, there was only silence.
The pilot said: "Normally the crew would say 'mayday, mayday, mayday' and then provide any other information they could, including their position, what had gone wrong if they knew this and any action they intended to take."
He said that some of the pilots who were in the air when they heard the message have since been too distressed to fly. About 60 workers on the Miller platform have also been too upset to work and 19 of them have already been flown home.
Tributes to the men continued to come in today, but some family members said they were unhappy with the way they had heard the news of the tragedy. Brogan Taylor, 18, lost her father Leslie, 41. She said she learned about his death through a family friend. She called for a thorough inquiry to ensure no other families had to endure what she had.
Meanwhile, recovery vessel Vigilante, chartered by Air Accident investigators, arrived at the crash site this morning. It was carrying specialist sonar equipment to locate the wreckage and remove it from the seabed. A spokeswoman for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB), which has 13 staff working on the case, said investigations were continuing at the scene.
They will spend the next few days taking statements from those who heard or saw the accident, including those aboard the Normand Aurora, which was three miles from the scene of the crash. They will be helped by video footage taken by RAF rescue helicopters which has been handed over to Grampian Police. Investigators will also visit the Miller platform.
Yesterday, police named 15 of the men who died. Expro North Sea, PSN and Sparrows Offshore each employed one of them. The two crew were employed by Bond and 10 of the workers were KCA Deutag staff. The other passenger is thought to be from Latvia and another KCA Deutag employee, although his family are still being located.
Ian Morrison, 45, who works for KCA Deutag, returned to Aberdeen last night. He told today how he had intended to take the fatal flight home but stayed on the Miller platform for an extra 24 hours to cover a shift.
He said: "Some of the personnel, like drilling, are being down manned. There's a general consensus that there is no way the guys are going to be able to focus on their work.
"Morale on the platform has obviously been hit hard. In think there is just a general feeling of devastation, and I think people realise how easily it could have been them. A lot of guys felt there was no way they could go out and work again so quickly because so many of them had connections with the guys."
He said he had previously flown on the helicopter which crashed and should have been on it on the night it crashed 14 miles northeast of Peterhead. He decided to stay on board the rig just over an hour before the helicopter began its journey back to Aberdeen.
"Those guys were all my crew and I should have been on that chopper as well," he said. "I was asked about an hour and a half before the flight took off if I would be prepared to stay on for another shift.
"My name was at one point on that list, and I feel extremely fortunate I was asked to stay. I remember thinking it would be good to get back home, but for some reason I thought I would stay and do the extra work."
Mr Morrison said he had already received some counselling but was finding it hard to sleep.
Desperate mayday emerges from doomed helicopter
Lindsay McIntosh
The final desperate message transmitted by the doomed Bond Offshore helicopter just moments before it plunged into the North Sea was revealed today.
The last seconds of the 14 passengers and two crew emerged as specialist recovery vehicles combed the seabed for the remains of the craft. The bodies of the eight men who have not yet been found are believed to be trapped inside the Super Puma which crashed off the coast of Aberdeenshire on its return from BP's Miller oilfield on Wednesday.
Before it dropped into the sea in "a hard landing", the captain managed to sound a mayday which was heard by all boats and helicopters in the area at the time. One pilot, who asked not to be named, said he heard: "Mayday, mayday - oh, f***". Then, there was only silence.
The pilot said: "Normally the crew would say 'mayday, mayday, mayday' and then provide any other information they could, including their position, what had gone wrong if they knew this and any action they intended to take."
He said that some of the pilots who were in the air when they heard the message have since been too distressed to fly. About 60 workers on the Miller platform have also been too upset to work and 19 of them have already been flown home.
Tributes to the men continued to come in today, but some family members said they were unhappy with the way they had heard the news of the tragedy. Brogan Taylor, 18, lost her father Leslie, 41. She said she learned about his death through a family friend. She called for a thorough inquiry to ensure no other families had to endure what she had.
Meanwhile, recovery vessel Vigilante, chartered by Air Accident investigators, arrived at the crash site this morning. It was carrying specialist sonar equipment to locate the wreckage and remove it from the seabed. A spokeswoman for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB), which has 13 staff working on the case, said investigations were continuing at the scene.
They will spend the next few days taking statements from those who heard or saw the accident, including those aboard the Normand Aurora, which was three miles from the scene of the crash. They will be helped by video footage taken by RAF rescue helicopters which has been handed over to Grampian Police. Investigators will also visit the Miller platform.
Yesterday, police named 15 of the men who died. Expro North Sea, PSN and Sparrows Offshore each employed one of them. The two crew were employed by Bond and 10 of the workers were KCA Deutag staff. The other passenger is thought to be from Latvia and another KCA Deutag employee, although his family are still being located.
Ian Morrison, 45, who works for KCA Deutag, returned to Aberdeen last night. He told today how he had intended to take the fatal flight home but stayed on the Miller platform for an extra 24 hours to cover a shift.
He said: "Some of the personnel, like drilling, are being down manned. There's a general consensus that there is no way the guys are going to be able to focus on their work.
"Morale on the platform has obviously been hit hard. In think there is just a general feeling of devastation, and I think people realise how easily it could have been them. A lot of guys felt there was no way they could go out and work again so quickly because so many of them had connections with the guys."
He said he had previously flown on the helicopter which crashed and should have been on it on the night it crashed 14 miles northeast of Peterhead. He decided to stay on board the rig just over an hour before the helicopter began its journey back to Aberdeen.
"Those guys were all my crew and I should have been on that chopper as well," he said. "I was asked about an hour and a half before the flight took off if I would be prepared to stay on for another shift.
"My name was at one point on that list, and I feel extremely fortunate I was asked to stay. I remember thinking it would be good to get back home, but for some reason I thought I would stay and do the extra work."
Mr Morrison said he had already received some counselling but was finding it hard to sleep.
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 3rd Apr 2009 at 21:02. Reason: Add text as quote
I have not posted here for months, but that really cannot pass!
I hope the "pilot who asked not to be named" is discovered and outed and appropriately dealt with. Would he want his own final "desperate calls" to be published to the world?
All right, lots of people heard the mayday - but it was a fellow pilot who broke the code.
I hope the "pilot who asked not to be named" is discovered and outed and appropriately dealt with. Would he want his own final "desperate calls" to be published to the world?
All right, lots of people heard the mayday - but it was a fellow pilot who broke the code.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Europe trying to enjoy retirement “YES”
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please don’t get carried away. A Mayday is a call to the outside word for help, it informs and starts a process of assistance it is also a way of informing the word of your problem and what you are doing to try and resolve it.
It is not a desperate call to be honoured as a last communication, let the world know, it may help some other poor sod in the future.
O
It is not a desperate call to be honoured as a last communication, let the world know, it may help some other poor sod in the future.
O