True North 407 down in the Kimberleys
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A quick re run.
Chook : Just for your superior intellect, I’ve reposted the pertinent bits of my comments. Perhaps you may be able to use some of your observational skill and see if the last phrase on post 53 above means anything to you? Where you get the slagging bit from I am blessed if I know. A fact which was answered by CY here;
I say again, that if there ever is anything out the back that is looking for a reason to go pop, then load it up with some unexpected and frequent super hi temps and you’ll more than likely know about it. Southerners can hardly be expected to be aware of where the traps of such super heated air exists in the northern build up season. Nothing more, nothing less; I am thinking that leading you around is fairly easy, just like the way the aboriginals catch the bush turkeys in the wild! In fact I was even playing to your extremely superior deducing skills with this little gem:
Personal abuse deleted: Senior Pilot
Have a nice day now, and like me and many others please do look forward to more of the ATSB engineering forensics.
tet
Post 37
perhaps if they had used the local drivers to crew it, who would have been very respectful of the local ambient furnace conditions, then the 407 donk may have lasted longer?
perhaps if they had used the local drivers to crew it, who would have been very respectful of the local ambient furnace conditions, then the 407 donk may have lasted longer?
Post 40
only too happy to be corrected,
only too happy to be corrected,
Post 53
you say these guys are all aces, a fact that I am not disputing
you say these guys are all aces, a fact that I am not disputing
Chook : Just for your superior intellect, I’ve reposted the pertinent bits of my comments. Perhaps you may be able to use some of your observational skill and see if the last phrase on post 53 above means anything to you? Where you get the slagging bit from I am blessed if I know. A fact which was answered by CY here;
The earlier post about locals not crewing it have been answered.
I say again, that if there ever is anything out the back that is looking for a reason to go pop, then load it up with some unexpected and frequent super hi temps and you’ll more than likely know about it. Southerners can hardly be expected to be aware of where the traps of such super heated air exists in the northern build up season. Nothing more, nothing less; I am thinking that leading you around is fairly easy, just like the way the aboriginals catch the bush turkeys in the wild! In fact I was even playing to your extremely superior deducing skills with this little gem:
What gives Einstein?
Personal abuse deleted: Senior Pilot
Have a nice day now, and like me and many others please do look forward to more of the ATSB engineering forensics.
tet
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 24th Oct 2008 at 16:05. Reason: Personal abuse deleted
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Top end waffle
Got a few better things to do but for you I will make a few more comments this 1 last time.
Whether my intellect is above, same or lower than yours is of absolutely no relevance in this forum. BUT comments like:-
• “einstein bla bla”
• observational skills
• and the removal of personal abuse from your post
may show the balance though (what do ya think???????????????).
While this is a discussion forum (re; rumour network) it does not mean it is a forum that gives pilots, who after all should generally be on the same side, the right to unfairly and without basis ****can another pilot when things do pair shaped ESPECIALLY when the person who’s doing the ****canning appears to know nothing about the pilots involved and the running of the operation and obviously little about the aircraft (In this case these 3 things from your posts are things you do not know anything about) – sorta funny when you are the obvious expert in the “”top end””.
And whether you later retract or not, the damage (mainly to you) is already done- so why do it?
Secondly would not a reasonable person wait until details come to pass (ooh there as Airworthiness Bulletin on that donk) before making comment. That is fair, reasonable and respectful.
You then say how you look forward to the acc rep but above that (your last post) you still have to tell all how southerners don’t understand the furnace conditions, man – what the?
Most reasonable persons who for whatever reason chose to make comment that could be deemed untrue when it was discovered otherwise would probably say sorry guys I was out of line: you come up with “” you say these guys are all aces, a fact that I am not disputing"". I say a 407 is laying on the bottom of the ocean. What gives Einstein?”” You call that a retraction. One would think that seems to suggest “if the guys are so good how come the machine let go”
As per my post 53 a donk does not care about ambient temps 1 bit (once again I am pretty sure the 407 remembers exceedances) and you use the performance charts (or do you know those “aces” didn’t). You fly to the little gauges on the dash and that bit wad of paper you can never find a home for.
Ref where do I get the slagging bit from? Well sure seems to be a number of posts here questioning your motives from others ( see corrella killer for a start) I am sure he would be happy to have a chat with you.
Then of course you launch into another happy customer on low flying at Bathurst only to be right royally shown that just cause its in color it ain’t necessarily true, and you come back with “hope he a mustering rated pilot” and “not some fruit loop”.
Mate once again why question the professionalism and integrity of pilots on this forum (which is a PUBLIC FORUM) when facts are not known, suppositions are wrong (and proven to be so) and then continue to defend ones self.
Here’s another of your pearls of wisdom ---
“It invokes the question of what AOC allows this super low level flying at public events, after all the crowd went there to see cars crash not some fruit loop in a helicopter trying to turn them and him into statistics?
Do you think you need the university of gallahs, as you so elloquently put it, disecting any stack you may have??
Support not slag and for gods sake read up on gas turbines and the 407 manual.
that is the last
regards 13
Got a few better things to do but for you I will make a few more comments this 1 last time.
Whether my intellect is above, same or lower than yours is of absolutely no relevance in this forum. BUT comments like:-
• “einstein bla bla”
• observational skills
• and the removal of personal abuse from your post
may show the balance though (what do ya think???????????????).
While this is a discussion forum (re; rumour network) it does not mean it is a forum that gives pilots, who after all should generally be on the same side, the right to unfairly and without basis ****can another pilot when things do pair shaped ESPECIALLY when the person who’s doing the ****canning appears to know nothing about the pilots involved and the running of the operation and obviously little about the aircraft (In this case these 3 things from your posts are things you do not know anything about) – sorta funny when you are the obvious expert in the “”top end””.
And whether you later retract or not, the damage (mainly to you) is already done- so why do it?
Secondly would not a reasonable person wait until details come to pass (ooh there as Airworthiness Bulletin on that donk) before making comment. That is fair, reasonable and respectful.
You then say how you look forward to the acc rep but above that (your last post) you still have to tell all how southerners don’t understand the furnace conditions, man – what the?
Most reasonable persons who for whatever reason chose to make comment that could be deemed untrue when it was discovered otherwise would probably say sorry guys I was out of line: you come up with “” you say these guys are all aces, a fact that I am not disputing"". I say a 407 is laying on the bottom of the ocean. What gives Einstein?”” You call that a retraction. One would think that seems to suggest “if the guys are so good how come the machine let go”
As per my post 53 a donk does not care about ambient temps 1 bit (once again I am pretty sure the 407 remembers exceedances) and you use the performance charts (or do you know those “aces” didn’t). You fly to the little gauges on the dash and that bit wad of paper you can never find a home for.
Ref where do I get the slagging bit from? Well sure seems to be a number of posts here questioning your motives from others ( see corrella killer for a start) I am sure he would be happy to have a chat with you.
Then of course you launch into another happy customer on low flying at Bathurst only to be right royally shown that just cause its in color it ain’t necessarily true, and you come back with “hope he a mustering rated pilot” and “not some fruit loop”.
Mate once again why question the professionalism and integrity of pilots on this forum (which is a PUBLIC FORUM) when facts are not known, suppositions are wrong (and proven to be so) and then continue to defend ones self.
Here’s another of your pearls of wisdom ---
“It invokes the question of what AOC allows this super low level flying at public events, after all the crowd went there to see cars crash not some fruit loop in a helicopter trying to turn them and him into statistics?
Do you think you need the university of gallahs, as you so elloquently put it, disecting any stack you may have??
Support not slag and for gods sake read up on gas turbines and the 407 manual.
that is the last
regards 13
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top end bull****
Hi sorry if my last post was out of line.
OK: but your veiled threat to tet is not acceptable: deleted!!!
SP
OK: but your veiled threat to tet is not acceptable: deleted!!!
SP
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 26th Oct 2008 at 17:12. Reason: remove threat to other poster
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The 407 FADEC does record all sorts of data, has an automatic 'event' recording and can be quite useful in sorting things out. But it only takes a data 'shot' every 1.2 seconds...
I've used it in an accident investigation and it was nothing short of amazing in sorting out what really happened.
I've used it in an accident investigation and it was nothing short of amazing in sorting out what really happened.
rescuers awarded bravery medals
http://ww.brisbanetimes.com.au/natio...0315-q6bs.html
Oz bravery awards announced today, two awards were given to sailors who rescued passengers trapped in the sinking helicopter.
Since the rescuers are given awards it underlines the danger the passengers and pilot were in...
"The next highest decoration, the Bravery Medal, will be awarded to 19 people.
Among them are Adrian Rigby and Luke Firth, cruise ship crewmen who dragged passengers from a ditched and sinking helicopter off the Kimberley coast in September 2008.
When the sightseeing chopper crashed into the sea after taking off from the ship in Talbot Bay, the pair dived in.
Four passengers and the pilot made it out, but two women were trapped in the capsized chopper with their seatbelts buckled, including an 87-year-old who had lost consciousness.
"So I dived in and the first thing my hand got to was her buckle. I couldn't believe it. It was a miracle," Mr Rigby said.
Mr Firth, meanwhile, repeatedly dived down to free the other woman whose seatbelt had become tangled."
Someone early in this thread suggested the accident had been filmed.
Any footage of the rescue would be valuable training aide.
Well done to the boat crew!
Mickjoebill
Oz bravery awards announced today, two awards were given to sailors who rescued passengers trapped in the sinking helicopter.
Since the rescuers are given awards it underlines the danger the passengers and pilot were in...
"The next highest decoration, the Bravery Medal, will be awarded to 19 people.
Among them are Adrian Rigby and Luke Firth, cruise ship crewmen who dragged passengers from a ditched and sinking helicopter off the Kimberley coast in September 2008.
When the sightseeing chopper crashed into the sea after taking off from the ship in Talbot Bay, the pair dived in.
Four passengers and the pilot made it out, but two women were trapped in the capsized chopper with their seatbelts buckled, including an 87-year-old who had lost consciousness.
"So I dived in and the first thing my hand got to was her buckle. I couldn't believe it. It was a miracle," Mr Rigby said.
Mr Firth, meanwhile, repeatedly dived down to free the other woman whose seatbelt had become tangled."
Someone early in this thread suggested the accident had been filmed.
Any footage of the rescue would be valuable training aide.
Well done to the boat crew!
Mickjoebill
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true north 407 TOP END TORQUE COMMENTS
to topendtorque
Now that the final report has come out about TN 407 stack perhaps you should take a little time to read the report and then go back thru your ridiculous slanderous (libelous) comments you chose to make on the subject. Comments that attacked the pilot (s) their knowledge of "matters top end" in relation to the operation of turbine engines (suggestion there from you that their lack of expert (yep the expertise you claimed to have) caused the damage to the donk and of course float deployment etc. etc.
A few points from the report:-
Then after you have read the posts you bladed with- (before anyone knew the cause and what went on)- have a look at the other posters - chook etc who pointed out in no uncertain terms FACTUALLY how your lack of knowledge served to make you look even less of a 'fellow in the league of aviators' than your comment served in themselves.
Maybe you should be used as an example of how this public forum can potentially damage a person both publicly and amongst fellow (professional- look that one up pal) pilots, because I guarrantee more people will remember ill founded damaging comments than any others.
Please do not seek to raise yourself with cheap returns but show respect and put fingers to keyboard and appologise for those damaging comments you made to those you seeked to bring down in pursuit of your own illfounded diatribe.
regards
blackstump
Now that the final report has come out about TN 407 stack perhaps you should take a little time to read the report and then go back thru your ridiculous slanderous (libelous) comments you chose to make on the subject. Comments that attacked the pilot (s) their knowledge of "matters top end" in relation to the operation of turbine engines (suggestion there from you that their lack of expert (yep the expertise you claimed to have) caused the damage to the donk and of course float deployment etc. etc.
A few points from the report:-
- Eng fail to impact approx 3 sec.
- pilot 6050 TT
- on type 2362- (yeh probably had been abusing the machine for that long and not only getting away with it at a company level but also fooling the VEMD/ fadec etc.)
- heres a good one even you should grasp- page 19--" RESULTS OF TESTING SHOWED A DEFICIENCY IN WIRE MESH PATCH"
- ETC ETC
Then after you have read the posts you bladed with- (before anyone knew the cause and what went on)- have a look at the other posters - chook etc who pointed out in no uncertain terms FACTUALLY how your lack of knowledge served to make you look even less of a 'fellow in the league of aviators' than your comment served in themselves.
Maybe you should be used as an example of how this public forum can potentially damage a person both publicly and amongst fellow (professional- look that one up pal) pilots, because I guarrantee more people will remember ill founded damaging comments than any others.
Please do not seek to raise yourself with cheap returns but show respect and put fingers to keyboard and appologise for those damaging comments you made to those you seeked to bring down in pursuit of your own illfounded diatribe.
regards
blackstump
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Blackstump.
I did, you didn't, check post 60.
the machine was reported to me a slug, by a very reliable and high time pilot.
I have no intention of revealing the source, get over it.
Three seconds to work out how to pop the floats, when the discipline should have been one of the last included ""CONSIDERATIONS"" prior to lift off.
good god man, hate to drive with him in traffic when the lights go red.
get over it I say, or you'll blow a valve.
Have a lovely day.
tet
then go back thru your ridiculous comments
the machine was reported to me a slug, by a very reliable and high time pilot.
I have no intention of revealing the source, get over it.
Three seconds to work out how to pop the floats, when the discipline should have been one of the last included ""CONSIDERATIONS"" prior to lift off.
good god man, hate to drive with him in traffic when the lights go red.
get over it I say, or you'll blow a valve.
Have a lovely day.
tet
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I did, you didn't, check post 60.
and that said what???- damage already done and any retraction seems very similar to Bill Clintons "i did not have sex with that women" follow up statements.
the machine was reported to me a slug, by a very reliable and high time pilot.
what relevance is this at all ?????? (re ace pilots/ knowledge of top end furace conditions bla bla bla)
I have no intention of revealing the source, get over it.
who gives a **** about the source and inside information - it is of no relevance at all to the defamatory words- have a little reality check and think of how YOU WOULD FEEL IF HE SITUATION WAS REVERSED!
Three seconds to work out how to pop the floats, when the discipline should have been one of the last included ""CONSIDERATIONS"" prior to lift off.
were you in the cockpit at the time privy to actions reactions and stressors going on- yeh you would expect that banging off the floats would be a primary consideration but lets try- second 1- brain working and id that things are going pair shaped, second 2 look outside and see if the aircraft is clear of TN, second 3 collective is on the way down (from second .5 ish to 2 ish) , uh oh now on the way back up, machine is yawing (yep started immediately but in the process of gettting machine straight), ground rush, maybe passenger in front having a little bit of a yell and carry on, still accessing where TN is, and suddenly is second 3 gone and everyone is getting real wet-
Would you or I have done better- myself I dunno, you only the same situation would see the results of that, anyone else- who knows- the guy had 6000 odd hours- you continue to suggest he should have done better- yep in a perfect world the machine would have landed nicely on fully inflated floats- suppose he punched them on on second 2 , come second 3 do you reakon a fully developed set of floats would have been there for the aircraft to sit on?
good god man, hate to drive with him in traffic when the lights go red.
mate what a childish comment- once again you were not there so this is a direct insult to the man in question- why don't you ring him and ask him and this really is not a great comparison is it _ certainly shows a lack of maturity on your behalf and further reinforces your "down the guts with heaps of smoke" method of flaying reputations (more guns- don't worry about the plan/ or sense (your second name Bush / Blair of Howard by any chance?).
ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A REASONABLY HIGH TIME PILOT WHO PROBABLY DID THE BEST JOB HE COULD AT THE TIME IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES-
obviously you top end gurus versed in the ways of furnace like temps (RELEVANCE???), would do a better job than this - ??
get over it I say, or you'll blow a valve.
No valve to be blown at all just disbelief that you continue in your glass house embarrassing yourself while doing your best to run others down mmmm- what gives ah Einstein??
Public forum, lack of facts, poor knowledge base, axe to grind (?), lack of consideration for others, and so on = damage to reputations that do not need to be damaged. Get it???- probably not. And if you need further reinforcement go way back to the bathurst low flying where you once again got stuck in without a clue of the real facts or the job requirements then got shot down (embarrassing?) again.
Unleash yourself from the lofty glass towers of perfection you reside cause anyone of us is potentially just around the corner from a noteable getoff. One which will undoubtably be mentioned in this forum- do you want to be one who contributes to a culture of guilty 1st facts later? or do you want to either make reasonable, constructive comments that add to the knowledge level of forum participants, that cultivate a fair, constructive and supportive forum that potentially lends itself to assisting pilots (whether they have made best or worst desicions) to recover from the potential ordeals they may find themselves in?
Above all remember you may be next and at present I would think that having set a very very low standard you would be slaughtered on here- we wait with baited breath .......
blackstump
oh yeah -plenty of manuals on turbine theory out there
no more to be said really- your comments shall forever more be plastered here and serve as a resume to your attitude toward your fellow aviators and of course yourself- top of the class champ
and that said what???- damage already done and any retraction seems very similar to Bill Clintons "i did not have sex with that women" follow up statements.
the machine was reported to me a slug, by a very reliable and high time pilot.
what relevance is this at all ?????? (re ace pilots/ knowledge of top end furace conditions bla bla bla)
I have no intention of revealing the source, get over it.
who gives a **** about the source and inside information - it is of no relevance at all to the defamatory words- have a little reality check and think of how YOU WOULD FEEL IF HE SITUATION WAS REVERSED!
Three seconds to work out how to pop the floats, when the discipline should have been one of the last included ""CONSIDERATIONS"" prior to lift off.
were you in the cockpit at the time privy to actions reactions and stressors going on- yeh you would expect that banging off the floats would be a primary consideration but lets try- second 1- brain working and id that things are going pair shaped, second 2 look outside and see if the aircraft is clear of TN, second 3 collective is on the way down (from second .5 ish to 2 ish) , uh oh now on the way back up, machine is yawing (yep started immediately but in the process of gettting machine straight), ground rush, maybe passenger in front having a little bit of a yell and carry on, still accessing where TN is, and suddenly is second 3 gone and everyone is getting real wet-
Would you or I have done better- myself I dunno, you only the same situation would see the results of that, anyone else- who knows- the guy had 6000 odd hours- you continue to suggest he should have done better- yep in a perfect world the machine would have landed nicely on fully inflated floats- suppose he punched them on on second 2 , come second 3 do you reakon a fully developed set of floats would have been there for the aircraft to sit on?
good god man, hate to drive with him in traffic when the lights go red.
mate what a childish comment- once again you were not there so this is a direct insult to the man in question- why don't you ring him and ask him and this really is not a great comparison is it _ certainly shows a lack of maturity on your behalf and further reinforces your "down the guts with heaps of smoke" method of flaying reputations (more guns- don't worry about the plan/ or sense (your second name Bush / Blair of Howard by any chance?).
ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A REASONABLY HIGH TIME PILOT WHO PROBABLY DID THE BEST JOB HE COULD AT THE TIME IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES-
obviously you top end gurus versed in the ways of furnace like temps (RELEVANCE???), would do a better job than this - ??
get over it I say, or you'll blow a valve.
No valve to be blown at all just disbelief that you continue in your glass house embarrassing yourself while doing your best to run others down mmmm- what gives ah Einstein??
Public forum, lack of facts, poor knowledge base, axe to grind (?), lack of consideration for others, and so on = damage to reputations that do not need to be damaged. Get it???- probably not. And if you need further reinforcement go way back to the bathurst low flying where you once again got stuck in without a clue of the real facts or the job requirements then got shot down (embarrassing?) again.
Unleash yourself from the lofty glass towers of perfection you reside cause anyone of us is potentially just around the corner from a noteable getoff. One which will undoubtably be mentioned in this forum- do you want to be one who contributes to a culture of guilty 1st facts later? or do you want to either make reasonable, constructive comments that add to the knowledge level of forum participants, that cultivate a fair, constructive and supportive forum that potentially lends itself to assisting pilots (whether they have made best or worst desicions) to recover from the potential ordeals they may find themselves in?
Above all remember you may be next and at present I would think that having set a very very low standard you would be slaughtered on here- we wait with baited breath .......
blackstump
oh yeah -plenty of manuals on turbine theory out there
no more to be said really- your comments shall forever more be plastered here and serve as a resume to your attitude toward your fellow aviators and of course yourself- top of the class champ
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Hey BS that a crafty name, do you live innit, uppit or beyondit?
Are you saying that CASA should go inspect the relevant Operator's AOC SOP's regarding emergencies during a standard every day tourist take off to see whether it is satisfactory in eliminating the possibility of drowning the pax when something serious happens, -- just then --?.
Sounds like you are saying that regardless of the drivers skill they WILL end up in the water if the engine stops just after take off, without floats, unless someone fitted permanent pumped up ones.
I am sure the operator will thank you for the lavish attention, they watch here you know, they're in the walls.
Pressure on a tourist flight?? Reminds me of a cricket commentary years ago. The commentator was babbling on about the pressure the players were under, be geeees.
A guest in the radio box, an ex cricketer of renown and sptfire pilot from the BB, grabs the mike and says; "Pressure, you wanta have a Messerschmidt up your A##e, that's pressure."
Anyway, over to you Expert!
Cheers tet
Are you saying that CASA should go inspect the relevant Operator's AOC SOP's regarding emergencies during a standard every day tourist take off to see whether it is satisfactory in eliminating the possibility of drowning the pax when something serious happens, -- just then --?.
Sounds like you are saying that regardless of the drivers skill they WILL end up in the water if the engine stops just after take off, without floats, unless someone fitted permanent pumped up ones.
I am sure the operator will thank you for the lavish attention, they watch here you know, they're in the walls.
Pressure on a tourist flight?? Reminds me of a cricket commentary years ago. The commentator was babbling on about the pressure the players were under, be geeees.
A guest in the radio box, an ex cricketer of renown and sptfire pilot from the BB, grabs the mike and says; "Pressure, you wanta have a Messerschmidt up your A##e, that's pressure."
Anyway, over to you Expert!
Cheers tet
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I reckon the frightening thing from that report is that you can have a 5 cm crack in the can and RR reckon it will have little effect on performance and that a trend check wont detect it....
I have seen smaller cracks than that drive TOT up so I am not quite convinced personally...
I have seen smaller cracks than that drive TOT up so I am not quite convinced personally...
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Having read the report, I wonder if the manufacturers of the floats or CASA will do any tests to see what the time is for an average response to engine failure, to float deployment sufficent to be of use. 3 seconds seems very skinny to me. Given that its one thing in a sim when you are prepared, but entirely different when its all gone bang on a normal work day, with five sreaming people. My experience that screaming pax take a millisecond to get it all out, I bet there is a second worth of distraction just there. Surely in terms of height this accident was about as bad as it gets, related to response time Lucky the crew were all around.Great job by the pilot I say.
