SARH to go
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Mmm I wonder does that mean its AirKinght that the IPT prefer - if so the newest aircraft in the SAR fleet will be replaced first?
Or is there really a more interesting scenario?
PS:- Not expecting an answer!
Or is there really a more interesting scenario?
PS:- Not expecting an answer!
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ironchefflay.
Bun incoming!!
The S92 is certainly a good cab with many fine characteristics but so is the 225. It's a proven aircraft with long lineage, maturity, excellent speed, long legs (with the aux tanks), little or no vibration in the cruise and hover and an autopilot that is the equal if not better than any SAR cab flying. The winch ops Hover Trim system is outstanding giving geat flexibility during winching operations and i don't think the S92 has that capability. The one slight issue is the cabin volume particularly head height but my spies tell me that Airknight have done a good job on the cabin configuration and it is very user friendly.
I would have thought that any government worth its salt would look at the financial robustness of the AK bidders and conclude that they have a far better chance of delivering a 25 year service than the opposition. Time will tell, they will probably just go for the cheapest!!.
Bun incoming!!
The S92 is certainly a good cab with many fine characteristics but so is the 225. It's a proven aircraft with long lineage, maturity, excellent speed, long legs (with the aux tanks), little or no vibration in the cruise and hover and an autopilot that is the equal if not better than any SAR cab flying. The winch ops Hover Trim system is outstanding giving geat flexibility during winching operations and i don't think the S92 has that capability. The one slight issue is the cabin volume particularly head height but my spies tell me that Airknight have done a good job on the cabin configuration and it is very user friendly.
I would have thought that any government worth its salt would look at the financial robustness of the AK bidders and conclude that they have a far better chance of delivering a 25 year service than the opposition. Time will tell, they will probably just go for the cheapest!!.
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Ironchefflay,
Interesting first(?) post!
I think the government would be even more daft to base its decision on an opinion of the aircrafts' performance.
I understand that extensive modeling was conducted to demonstrate the a/c's suitability wrt the requirement, as well as a demonstration of each platform's capability.
I also believe that the technical aspect is but as small part of the process in deciding who the preferred bidder will be.
Any particular reason that you think they would be daft to chose the 225? Flight International opined that it was an excellent SAR platform recently. Care to share with us your reasoning for your statement - unless of course you have a vested interest!
Interesting first(?) post!
I think the government would be even more daft to base its decision on an opinion of the aircrafts' performance.
I understand that extensive modeling was conducted to demonstrate the a/c's suitability wrt the requirement, as well as a demonstration of each platform's capability.
I also believe that the technical aspect is but as small part of the process in deciding who the preferred bidder will be.
Any particular reason that you think they would be daft to chose the 225? Flight International opined that it was an excellent SAR platform recently. Care to share with us your reasoning for your statement - unless of course you have a vested interest!
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The one slight issue is the cabin volume particularly head height but my spies tell me that Airknight have done a good job on the cabin configuration and it is very user friendly
Answer NO
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Rescue 1
Your point about standing up in the cabin is a contentious one which has been noted by many rear crew both involved and not invoved in SARH.
I would say this. Not all RAF winchmen can stand up straight even in a Sea King what with MRS boots and a Mk 4 helmet, and the fact that they have to stoop as they trudge up to to Jocks Box and back (eg to get the entonox) might be a contributory factor in so many having back problems. How much better if the casualty is brought to into the cabin and is immediately in a position where all the med kit is to hand and the winchman hardly has to move anywhere to get anything and start treatment as in the 225. If you're not walking up or down all the time head height is less of an issue. If you look at it as a new way of operating then the advantages become apparent.
The S92 has a taller cabin which is great from that perspective but its not perfect in every respect. (That long range tank!) The winch (door) is at the front of the cabin so everything that comes through that door has to be carried or dragged aft, possibly past some other stuff already there. The 225 has the door on the middle of the cabin so there is not so far to travel which means the head height is less of an issue.
In my experience you could design a SAR aircraft with a cabin the size of a C17 but eventually it would be filled with c**p and someone would want something bigger. The 225 is not a Sea King nor is it an S92 but it is a damn fine SAR cab and once the rear crew get used to it's many excellent attributes everything will be fine and we can all concentrate on the really serious issue of the day namely, when is Tiger Woods coming back
Your point about standing up in the cabin is a contentious one which has been noted by many rear crew both involved and not invoved in SARH.
I would say this. Not all RAF winchmen can stand up straight even in a Sea King what with MRS boots and a Mk 4 helmet, and the fact that they have to stoop as they trudge up to to Jocks Box and back (eg to get the entonox) might be a contributory factor in so many having back problems. How much better if the casualty is brought to into the cabin and is immediately in a position where all the med kit is to hand and the winchman hardly has to move anywhere to get anything and start treatment as in the 225. If you're not walking up or down all the time head height is less of an issue. If you look at it as a new way of operating then the advantages become apparent.
The S92 has a taller cabin which is great from that perspective but its not perfect in every respect. (That long range tank!) The winch (door) is at the front of the cabin so everything that comes through that door has to be carried or dragged aft, possibly past some other stuff already there. The 225 has the door on the middle of the cabin so there is not so far to travel which means the head height is less of an issue.
In my experience you could design a SAR aircraft with a cabin the size of a C17 but eventually it would be filled with c**p and someone would want something bigger. The 225 is not a Sea King nor is it an S92 but it is a damn fine SAR cab and once the rear crew get used to it's many excellent attributes everything will be fine and we can all concentrate on the really serious issue of the day namely, when is Tiger Woods coming back
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If they go for a 225, I hope they put an APU in it. Otherwise they only start if they're connected to the national grid.
Wiz
Colleagues of mine, who fly the 225, reliably inform me that more than 10 mins on battery power and an internal start becomes increasingly unlikely. Ours always start from ground power... then again that's not much worse than a Sea King! I remember being stuck at Corpach with a dead Sea King after the battery refused to start approximately 30 mins after we had shut down following a 4 hour flight!
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well, firstly, its not my first post. had another account but wont seem to let me in!
funny how only the 225 lovers seem to come in here and have to try to prove why its the platform to go for!
as for me, well, im not a pilot, im an engineer and i work on both types, and i prefere to work on the S92. thats just my opinion, im not going to try to convince anyone otherwise, thats just how it is.
operationally, i think the cabin is MUCH better for SAR. you CAN STAND UP in it, its much roomier for kit and patients, cockpit has better visability, and the ramp is very handy as attested to by the current CG users. that together with an APU makes it much more useful in my book. then there is no problem with the battery, can have air con and electric with out needing the use of the engines. im sure, heat in the mountains would be appreciated if parked up! these things alone i think make it far more suitable. i will accept however, having a door at either side may be of some limited value as some have lauded before. but im sure if the door is on the wrong side, the pilots can easily turn it round, or move!
i believe if the 92 is picked, the coastguard will get S92B's instead of A models, which will include a redesign of the Aux tanks. I noticed sumburghs aux tanks are up on the storage roof still wrapped in plastic, so i dont think they are much of a problem for them! im sure any other problems will have been looked at as well
from a maintenance perspective, i find them much better to work on. thats as far as im going with that!!
the above are my musings for you folks to mull over. im not entering into a fight as you pilot types always seem to want to! thats just what i think!
PS. our 225's constantly need bump starting on ground power!!! even first thing in the morning!
funny how only the 225 lovers seem to come in here and have to try to prove why its the platform to go for!
as for me, well, im not a pilot, im an engineer and i work on both types, and i prefere to work on the S92. thats just my opinion, im not going to try to convince anyone otherwise, thats just how it is.
operationally, i think the cabin is MUCH better for SAR. you CAN STAND UP in it, its much roomier for kit and patients, cockpit has better visability, and the ramp is very handy as attested to by the current CG users. that together with an APU makes it much more useful in my book. then there is no problem with the battery, can have air con and electric with out needing the use of the engines. im sure, heat in the mountains would be appreciated if parked up! these things alone i think make it far more suitable. i will accept however, having a door at either side may be of some limited value as some have lauded before. but im sure if the door is on the wrong side, the pilots can easily turn it round, or move!
i believe if the 92 is picked, the coastguard will get S92B's instead of A models, which will include a redesign of the Aux tanks. I noticed sumburghs aux tanks are up on the storage roof still wrapped in plastic, so i dont think they are much of a problem for them! im sure any other problems will have been looked at as well
from a maintenance perspective, i find them much better to work on. thats as far as im going with that!!
the above are my musings for you folks to mull over. im not entering into a fight as you pilot types always seem to want to! thats just what i think!
PS. our 225's constantly need bump starting on ground power!!! even first thing in the morning!
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Rotary girl,
Lucky i'm not on the choosing panel, cos all i have is an opinion!
i dont seriously think they are waiting till they read some sort of sensible consensus from this thread, which aircraft to choose! or mayby thats why it keeps getting delayed!! come on people lets make a decision!!
Lucky i'm not on the choosing panel, cos all i have is an opinion!
i dont seriously think they are waiting till they read some sort of sensible consensus from this thread, which aircraft to choose! or mayby thats why it keeps getting delayed!! come on people lets make a decision!!
Last edited by ironchefflay; 7th Jan 2010 at 17:18.
I believe CHC is the largest EC225 operator in the world, yet their platform of choice for UK SAR-H is the S-92.
Irrespective of which side of the fence you sit, you have to wonder why that is?
Irrespective of which side of the fence you sit, you have to wonder why that is?
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Interesting comment Hilife, however it’s also interesting to note that CHC have subsequently ordered SAR EC225’s for Norway contracts, and not the S92.
This has occurred post CHC wining the UK’s Coast Guards interim contract where they are using the S92 at Sumbrough and Stornoway. If the S92 is CHC’s SAR platform of choice, then why change? Was there a change of heart post the Halifax incident?
I’ve seen one of these new SAR 225’s, and a lot of thought, investment and technology has been applied to them.
http://www.statoil.com/en/NewsAndMed...ntractCHC.aspx
I’ve not seen any orders for SAR S92’s lately.
This has occurred post CHC wining the UK’s Coast Guards interim contract where they are using the S92 at Sumbrough and Stornoway. If the S92 is CHC’s SAR platform of choice, then why change? Was there a change of heart post the Halifax incident?
I’ve seen one of these new SAR 225’s, and a lot of thought, investment and technology has been applied to them.
http://www.statoil.com/en/NewsAndMed...ntractCHC.aspx
I’ve not seen any orders for SAR S92’s lately.
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Originally Posted by ironchefflay
i believe if the 92 is picked, the coastguard will get S92B's instead of A models
I believe the EC225 is already offered with an APU: Microturbo Saphir 20 (PDF, 343 kB)
I/C
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you people should already know this.
CHC may be the largest operator of EC225 in the world, even maybe including EC225 SAR aircraft, but that is because the contracts for these jobs are tendered usually with a choice of platforms and it is the oil companies normally who choose the platform and the equipment fitted.
im not surprised an APU has possibly been offered, but it is an option on the 225, and as such may not be taken up as its takes up payload capability. its standard on the 92, so theres no penalty for having it.
Ian,
I am sure if any recent incidents have influenced peoples perceptions of aircraft it is because they have only heard on side of the story. for every problem the S92 has, the EC225 has one to match it! they may not be the same problem, but the outcomes would be the same! As does the AW139 or any other helicopter flying today. it takes many years of development and redesign to get the reliablity to match the fabled S-61!!! (which also had its fair share of problems!)
From what i understand, the Coast guard Like the S92 and are happy with it. that is what i was told by someone in the organisation. if thats the case then i for one would be happy to go work on them. if AirKnight gets it, well, im sure if i needed a job and they offered me one, the 225 wouldnt put me off it.
CHC may be the largest operator of EC225 in the world, even maybe including EC225 SAR aircraft, but that is because the contracts for these jobs are tendered usually with a choice of platforms and it is the oil companies normally who choose the platform and the equipment fitted.
im not surprised an APU has possibly been offered, but it is an option on the 225, and as such may not be taken up as its takes up payload capability. its standard on the 92, so theres no penalty for having it.
Ian,
I am sure if any recent incidents have influenced peoples perceptions of aircraft it is because they have only heard on side of the story. for every problem the S92 has, the EC225 has one to match it! they may not be the same problem, but the outcomes would be the same! As does the AW139 or any other helicopter flying today. it takes many years of development and redesign to get the reliablity to match the fabled S-61!!! (which also had its fair share of problems!)
From what i understand, the Coast guard Like the S92 and are happy with it. that is what i was told by someone in the organisation. if thats the case then i for one would be happy to go work on them. if AirKnight gets it, well, im sure if i needed a job and they offered me one, the 225 wouldnt put me off it.
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Yes, this is my first post, glad to read you since about 1 year !
I'm a EC725 pilot for French Air Force, with many Puma background, and some Fennec...
2 precisions :
On the 725 (similar to 225 in a lot of systems) we often start without any GPU/APU using the battery. The only thing to survey is the tension and if we intend to stay power ON waiting to start, we switch off several screens leaving only the 2 VMS on. we can stay easily 10 minutes there. But in an alert take off we often put BATT ON, external lighting, Fuel pumps and engine selector ON. So, no time to loose starting the APU and ready to taxi in less than 3 minutes !
Secondly, we are operating Air Force 725 in Brittany as a SAR helicopter under Navy responsability. The crews are mixed, Air Force and Navy Pilots, Flight engineers, Divers in the same helo : trust me it goes very well !! (most of the problems come from HQ's...). Starting this cooperation most of the Super Frelon operators were very critical about the height of the cabin... But it has been very quickly admitted that most of the time they were not standing in the cabin, even during winch operation, and that the central door compared to the Super Frelon front one was really a great advantage, allowing to keep a dry area (front) and a possibly wet one in the rear. Very often people first refers to these good old days... or when thinking about changing their habits seems so hard they prefer to stay with the same way of action...
Voilà, this is just my experience, but who has the truth... every one !!
Next post next year.
PS : last month French Navy has ordered 2 EC 225 for SAR in Brittany
I'm a EC725 pilot for French Air Force, with many Puma background, and some Fennec...
2 precisions :
On the 725 (similar to 225 in a lot of systems) we often start without any GPU/APU using the battery. The only thing to survey is the tension and if we intend to stay power ON waiting to start, we switch off several screens leaving only the 2 VMS on. we can stay easily 10 minutes there. But in an alert take off we often put BATT ON, external lighting, Fuel pumps and engine selector ON. So, no time to loose starting the APU and ready to taxi in less than 3 minutes !
Secondly, we are operating Air Force 725 in Brittany as a SAR helicopter under Navy responsability. The crews are mixed, Air Force and Navy Pilots, Flight engineers, Divers in the same helo : trust me it goes very well !! (most of the problems come from HQ's...). Starting this cooperation most of the Super Frelon operators were very critical about the height of the cabin... But it has been very quickly admitted that most of the time they were not standing in the cabin, even during winch operation, and that the central door compared to the Super Frelon front one was really a great advantage, allowing to keep a dry area (front) and a possibly wet one in the rear. Very often people first refers to these good old days... or when thinking about changing their habits seems so hard they prefer to stay with the same way of action...
Voilà, this is just my experience, but who has the truth... every one !!
Next post next year.
PS : last month French Navy has ordered 2 EC 225 for SAR in Brittany
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725 Driver
Welcome to PP.
You are absolutely right about the cabin height of the 225. there will always be resistance to anything new but generally people adapt quickly.
If a tall cabin is an essential working environment for any particular individual, the RAF has just ordered lots of Chinooks...................................!!!!!
Welcome to PP.
You are absolutely right about the cabin height of the 225. there will always be resistance to anything new but generally people adapt quickly.
If a tall cabin is an essential working environment for any particular individual, the RAF has just ordered lots of Chinooks...................................!!!!!