What would you choose, R22 or 300CBi if a similar price?
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What would you choose, R22 or 300CBi if a similar price (TO HIRE) ?
This is not really a question about which helicopter is a better training helicopter as I know there are loads of posts about this but just after some feedback.
If someone in the UK, say near London, could offer a new, or nearly new, 300CBi at the same or similar price to an R22 per hour, what do you think the interest would be?
My thoughts are
1) If you are heavier, you only really have a choice of the R44 for training and hire.....much more per hour.
2) Possibly less time to learn on the 300CBi? (any ideas how much less)
3) Nicer, bigger place to sit in? Could even carry three for self fly hire?
4) Higher Rota inertia, fully articulated head, fuel injected engine...
On the downside,
1) Bit slower?
Would really appreciate peoples feedback.
Fly safe....
If someone in the UK, say near London, could offer a new, or nearly new, 300CBi at the same or similar price to an R22 per hour, what do you think the interest would be?
My thoughts are
1) If you are heavier, you only really have a choice of the R44 for training and hire.....much more per hour.
2) Possibly less time to learn on the 300CBi? (any ideas how much less)
3) Nicer, bigger place to sit in? Could even carry three for self fly hire?
4) Higher Rota inertia, fully articulated head, fuel injected engine...
On the downside,
1) Bit slower?
Would really appreciate peoples feedback.
Fly safe....
Last edited by Pigeon-dodger; 17th May 2008 at 19:36.
1) If you are heavier, you only really have a choice of the R44 for training and hire.....much more per hour.
No have taught 3 people who were over 125kgs in one of my 300C's ( C is a load more powerful than a cbi)
2) Possibly less time to learn on the 300CBi? (any ideas how much less)
When I freelanced at a school that used both 300 was about 10 to 15% quicker
3) Nicer, bigger place to sit in? Could even carry three for self fly hire?
Wouldnt try 3 in a cbi, c no problem
4) Higher Rota inertia, fully articulated head, fuel injected engine...
You have answered your own question
Other good side no 12 year 2200 hour rebuild
On the downside,
1) Bit slower?
300c comfortable at 75 kts will do 85 but you know you are doing it !!!
No have taught 3 people who were over 125kgs in one of my 300C's ( C is a load more powerful than a cbi)
2) Possibly less time to learn on the 300CBi? (any ideas how much less)
When I freelanced at a school that used both 300 was about 10 to 15% quicker
3) Nicer, bigger place to sit in? Could even carry three for self fly hire?
Wouldnt try 3 in a cbi, c no problem
4) Higher Rota inertia, fully articulated head, fuel injected engine...
You have answered your own question
Other good side no 12 year 2200 hour rebuild
On the downside,
1) Bit slower?
300c comfortable at 75 kts will do 85 but you know you are doing it !!!
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I've just been looking at the 'light' helicopter market and flew most of the options and listened to a lot of advice.
There's actually no definitive answer, as there are many different issues to consider. And some 'advice' will be tainted by personal prejudices and self interest.
But the 300s (particularly the C) did get a lot of praise. And the Enstrom 280fx shouldn't be dismissed. I had hoped the R44 would have fitted the bill, but despite its merits, I was a little disappointed.
In the end I went for a well equipped 2005 300C. Not cheap (same price as Raven II), but it met my criteria and was highly recommended by the people I trust.
There's actually no definitive answer, as there are many different issues to consider. And some 'advice' will be tainted by personal prejudices and self interest.
But the 300s (particularly the C) did get a lot of praise. And the Enstrom 280fx shouldn't be dismissed. I had hoped the R44 would have fitted the bill, but despite its merits, I was a little disappointed.
In the end I went for a well equipped 2005 300C. Not cheap (same price as Raven II), but it met my criteria and was highly recommended by the people I trust.
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3) Nicer, bigger place to sit in? Could even carry three for self fly hire?
Wouldnt try 3 in a cbi, c no problem
Wouldnt try 3 in a cbi, c no problem
The 300C is flown from the left seat which means that with dual controls taken out, you can get two passengers alongside (if they don't weigh too much!). However, the CBi is flown from the right seat and with the collective in the middle, three across is no longer an option and there is no third seat.
Hughes500 is spot on - if you're heavier, the R22 is out and, with the R44 being much more expensive, the 300 is an excellent option.
Cheers
Whirls
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If you can supply a 300 for the same price or very close to the price of a R22 and i dont have to travel too far to fly it then i would fly the 300 any day. I know VEE-ANY loves them, has loads of time in them and would train people in them hands down. Maybe it would be worth getting his input on whats the best model to have and what his students thought of the experience?
Flash
Flash
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Mmmm.. having flown, and taught extensively in both...
The 300 is easier to fly, but crap for going anywhere as it's SLOW and you can't carry anything, and it burns more fuel. And they always seem to break more often, not major stuff, just niggly things that keep them on ground much more often than the R22. If you want a career as an instructor, then opt for the R22, as Schweizer FI jobs are few and far between.
If you learn to fly on the 300, then when/if you transfer onto a Robinson, you will struggle to fly it as well. Most people I have taught need about 10 hours conversion, and even then, they aren't too comfortable with it, because of the teetering head 'feel', t-bar cyclic position, and RRPM control.
The 300 is easier to fly, but crap for going anywhere as it's SLOW and you can't carry anything, and it burns more fuel. And they always seem to break more often, not major stuff, just niggly things that keep them on ground much more often than the R22. If you want a career as an instructor, then opt for the R22, as Schweizer FI jobs are few and far between.
If you learn to fly on the 300, then when/if you transfer onto a Robinson, you will struggle to fly it as well. Most people I have taught need about 10 hours conversion, and even then, they aren't too comfortable with it, because of the teetering head 'feel', t-bar cyclic position, and RRPM control.
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Hi guys,
Thanks for feedback, I was really asking if it would be a real success (or really wanted / needed) to try and have one for hire or training, especailly if the same or similar price tot eh R22.
The answer is definetly 'yes'. As much as anything, all the R22 boys can add another type or if you are just starting, may well prefer to learn on it for the reasons above if a similar price.
Anyone know what how many hours an average school / self fly hire R22 would work a year?
thanks
Thanks for feedback, I was really asking if it would be a real success (or really wanted / needed) to try and have one for hire or training, especailly if the same or similar price tot eh R22.
The answer is definetly 'yes'. As much as anything, all the R22 boys can add another type or if you are just starting, may well prefer to learn on it for the reasons above if a similar price.
Anyone know what how many hours an average school / self fly hire R22 would work a year?
thanks
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Hardly any schools in the UK do much self-fly hiring. The occasional one at weekends in the summer for a buzz around the local area, that's it. See this previous thread about why people give up flying after getting their PPL.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322852
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322852
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Not so much a case of "wouldn't try it" but more a case of, "it can't be done!"
The 300C is flown from the left seat which means that with dual controls taken out, you can get two passengers alongside (if they don't weigh too much!). However, the CBi is flown from the right seat and with the collective in the middle, three across is no longer an option and there is no third seat.
The 300C is flown from the left seat which means that with dual controls taken out, you can get two passengers alongside (if they don't weigh too much!). However, the CBi is flown from the right seat and with the collective in the middle, three across is no longer an option and there is no third seat.
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No real comparison
If You could operate a 300c for the same price as a R22 There would be very few people bothering with the R22.
Its a fact of life that the machine which can generate the most money will be the machine ordered, and even when the cheaper/more profitable machine is much less forgiving and proven to have a much higher accident rate this still applies.
I have flown lots of hours in both 300c's and R22's (in all conditions) and there is no question as to which one is the better/safer machine. Put both machines on the flightline at the same price and just see what happens.
Dont worry about flying slower in the 300c, at least you wont have to "overload it" to have enough fuel to actually fly a reasonable distance.
Finally- No doubt there will be Robinson zealots already looking for the reply button to fire off abuse, but before you do this please do a quick W+B for me.
With a 20 minute reserve, what is your fuel endurance with:
ISA day, along the coast, cloud restricts you to 1500' cruise height.
Aircraft zero fuel weight 890Lbs (R22beta)
Pilot weighs 220 LBS
Instructor weighs 170LBS
baggage/charts/water bottle 10LBS
So how far can you get (legally) like that? and still have your 20 minute reserve sloshing around?
Its a fact of life that the machine which can generate the most money will be the machine ordered, and even when the cheaper/more profitable machine is much less forgiving and proven to have a much higher accident rate this still applies.
I have flown lots of hours in both 300c's and R22's (in all conditions) and there is no question as to which one is the better/safer machine. Put both machines on the flightline at the same price and just see what happens.
Dont worry about flying slower in the 300c, at least you wont have to "overload it" to have enough fuel to actually fly a reasonable distance.
Finally- No doubt there will be Robinson zealots already looking for the reply button to fire off abuse, but before you do this please do a quick W+B for me.
With a 20 minute reserve, what is your fuel endurance with:
ISA day, along the coast, cloud restricts you to 1500' cruise height.
Aircraft zero fuel weight 890Lbs (R22beta)
Pilot weighs 220 LBS
Instructor weighs 170LBS
baggage/charts/water bottle 10LBS
So how far can you get (legally) like that? and still have your 20 minute reserve sloshing around?
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Sorry to say but you are wrong mate. I have done commercial work in the 300c and 300cbi and they are both flown from the left seat.
Cheers
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Used to instruct in the 300cb, mass briefing for all students on the course in the morning, then each instructor would take there four students away, two students back to back in the morning and two after lunch. There was also a 300c used for basic instrument training.
Took less time to send some one solo in the 300cb but the actual get to ppl standard took no longer than a R22, just longer to solo in the R22 because a bit more flighty and had to be sure they would lower the lever without thinking if it all went quiet, tiny bit more time in the 300cb.
The 300cb is a great training a/c but is more expensive to run and has more niggles per hour than a R22, it is a training machine, two people, solo from the right, not as powerfull as you think, three people and more power is the 300c.
Can't tell you about the 300cbi but I guess it's just like the 300cb with fuel injection, so
300cb = training a/c, two larger people only, bit more fuel per hour, bit more maintance, bit slower, bit safer for a ham fisted student/ pilot.
R22 = private owner, training a/c, two smaller people only, bit less fuel, bit less maintance, bit faster, not as safe in same conditions as above, throw away or put money aside for big rebuild at end of life.
Both good stuff but R22 will get more people through the door because it is cheaper, you can beast it day after day, it's got it's well documented problems so just learn and avoid, did I mention it will be cheaper? just look around.
Took less time to send some one solo in the 300cb but the actual get to ppl standard took no longer than a R22, just longer to solo in the R22 because a bit more flighty and had to be sure they would lower the lever without thinking if it all went quiet, tiny bit more time in the 300cb.
The 300cb is a great training a/c but is more expensive to run and has more niggles per hour than a R22, it is a training machine, two people, solo from the right, not as powerfull as you think, three people and more power is the 300c.
Can't tell you about the 300cbi but I guess it's just like the 300cb with fuel injection, so
300cb = training a/c, two larger people only, bit more fuel per hour, bit more maintance, bit slower, bit safer for a ham fisted student/ pilot.
R22 = private owner, training a/c, two smaller people only, bit less fuel, bit less maintance, bit faster, not as safe in same conditions as above, throw away or put money aside for big rebuild at end of life.
Both good stuff but R22 will get more people through the door because it is cheaper, you can beast it day after day, it's got it's well documented problems so just learn and avoid, did I mention it will be cheaper? just look around.
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your question is not realistic, it costs a lot more money to purchase the 300 than the R-22 and the 300 has higher routine maintenance & overhaul costs.
Sorry to say but you are wrong mate. I have done commercial work in the 300c and 300cbi and they are both flown from the left seat.
One minor point that not many people bring up is this: the hobbs on an R22 starts when the engine is started (when the oil pressure gauge is in the green), the hobbs on the 300's start when you lift off the ground. At least they used to, are the newer models the same??
Heli-phile
If You could operate a 300c for the same price as a R22 There would be very few people bothering with the R22......
If You could operate a 300c for the same price as a R22 There would be very few people bothering with the R22......
..before I part with my hard earned cash just want to get some feedback that 'in principle' it's a good idea if I can get the finances to work. I want to offer a great helicopter at a great price. I am not niave to think it will make lots of money, it won't...but if it 'washes its face' and is wanted...I will probably go ahead. Will buy new or nearly new...
I wouldn’t go as far to say I’ve got loads of hours on the 300 but it is upwards of 1000 on type. There is at least one poster on this thread who has if memory serves me rightly at least three times that in 300s and operates at least two of them in the UK.
Downsides
There are some downsides to the 300 from an ownership perspective when compared to the R22 which I see as follows
They are more expensive to buy.
The 269s are more maintenance intensive than the R22
There are fewer type experienced engineers around in the UK.
Purchase Options
There are at least two ways to look at the new and used options (regardless of the type)
Things Not To Do
If you are going to buy, a new one, don’t get talked into to the two tank option on the CBi unless all you want to do is fly solo until your bladder explodes. It just increases the empty weight and is almost unusable if flying two up (like when its being used for instruction). Remember the CBi MAUW is 300lbs less than most Cs.
Techie Stuff
The 300 internal (charging) Hour Meter is driven by MRGB oil pressure. The external one is operated by a microswitch on the FWD left undercarriage leg, and so is an accurate record of how long you have been off the ground (when it works). You need to monitor it closely as they do stick and flight time can go unrecorded.
The life limited components are on the Schweizer website in a pdf document which can be found here.
Remember also that whilst these are the recommnended figures for component replacement, not everything will make its scheduled life (apllies just as much to R22s), but somethings you cannot foresee.
The replacement cost of a lot of (if not all) the components can be found in the pricebook which can be downloaded here.
Summary
The 300 vs R22 debate has been to done to death on Pprune and the outside world may times over, and like you say that’s not what you are interested in.
Flashover is right, I love training in the 300 it is what it was built for. If I could afford to run a school I’d choose 300s every day. However I would certainly advocate anyone who wants to progress in the industry to get R22 type rated (because you will end up working somewhere that has them at some point, so why cut yourself out of the race for jobs at the first hurdle), and if they are not R22 rated by the time they are due to start an instructor course then I would suggest they complete their entire course on one. Teaching in an R22 with 280hrs and 15 on type, 10 of which you did solo (assuming JAA rules) is not the best starting point to be in as an instructor IMHO (doesn't mean it can't be done).
If you can make it available for a similar price I believe you will have a market, there a quite a few 300 rated pilots around the London area with little to fly (not nothing) after the demise of BHH.
Downsides
There are some downsides to the 300 from an ownership perspective when compared to the R22 which I see as follows
They are more expensive to buy.
The 269s are more maintenance intensive than the R22
There are fewer type experienced engineers around in the UK.
Purchase Options
There are at least two ways to look at the new and used options (regardless of the type)
- New
Some things that break will be under warranty (not all of them) so maintenance bills are more controllable, at least initially.
Bigger initial outlay (and higher monthly repayments) and higher insurance due to the higher hull value. - Used
Cheaper initial outlay and lower insurance due to lower hull value.
You are effectively buying an unknown quantity, you don’t know who has done what to it beforehand.
Maintenance bills are less controlled, and parts tend to require replacement just because they are older. If you buy used make sure it gets surveyed.
Things Not To Do
If you are going to buy, a new one, don’t get talked into to the two tank option on the CBi unless all you want to do is fly solo until your bladder explodes. It just increases the empty weight and is almost unusable if flying two up (like when its being used for instruction). Remember the CBi MAUW is 300lbs less than most Cs.
Techie Stuff
The 300 internal (charging) Hour Meter is driven by MRGB oil pressure. The external one is operated by a microswitch on the FWD left undercarriage leg, and so is an accurate record of how long you have been off the ground (when it works). You need to monitor it closely as they do stick and flight time can go unrecorded.
The life limited components are on the Schweizer website in a pdf document which can be found here.
Remember also that whilst these are the recommnended figures for component replacement, not everything will make its scheduled life (apllies just as much to R22s), but somethings you cannot foresee.
The replacement cost of a lot of (if not all) the components can be found in the pricebook which can be downloaded here.
Summary
The 300 vs R22 debate has been to done to death on Pprune and the outside world may times over, and like you say that’s not what you are interested in.
Flashover is right, I love training in the 300 it is what it was built for. If I could afford to run a school I’d choose 300s every day. However I would certainly advocate anyone who wants to progress in the industry to get R22 type rated (because you will end up working somewhere that has them at some point, so why cut yourself out of the race for jobs at the first hurdle), and if they are not R22 rated by the time they are due to start an instructor course then I would suggest they complete their entire course on one. Teaching in an R22 with 280hrs and 15 on type, 10 of which you did solo (assuming JAA rules) is not the best starting point to be in as an instructor IMHO (doesn't mean it can't be done).
If you can make it available for a similar price I believe you will have a market, there a quite a few 300 rated pilots around the London area with little to fly (not nothing) after the demise of BHH.
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VeeAny...thank you very much for all your input. I do not think an older machine would be worth the risk of an expensive bit going wrong...just don't know its history.
Maintenance has turned out to be a pain, nearest I can find to London are Worldwide at Bournemouth. I might be able to do 50 hours at the field but if it does go tech, it will cost more to fix i guess as there are fewer maintenace people about
. Think Worldwide bought all/some CSE's tooling when they went and seem the best bet.
I think it will work (or I may not lose too much). At the end of the day I just like the 300 and they have a great following. Basic market will be PPL(H), trial lessons and some self fly hire... I honestly think that many people will start flying on a certain machine for a range of factors...helicopter, club, instructor, PRICE and location. I think i have found the 'nice helicopter' and 'nice price' now need to work on the other bits.....
Anyone know what an average club machine will fly a year? I am guessing 200 to 300 a year?
Maintenance has turned out to be a pain, nearest I can find to London are Worldwide at Bournemouth. I might be able to do 50 hours at the field but if it does go tech, it will cost more to fix i guess as there are fewer maintenace people about
. Think Worldwide bought all/some CSE's tooling when they went and seem the best bet.I think it will work (or I may not lose too much). At the end of the day I just like the 300 and they have a great following. Basic market will be PPL(H), trial lessons and some self fly hire... I honestly think that many people will start flying on a certain machine for a range of factors...helicopter, club, instructor, PRICE and location. I think i have found the 'nice helicopter' and 'nice price' now need to work on the other bits.....
Anyone know what an average club machine will fly a year? I am guessing 200 to 300 a year?
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That Pretty Much Says It All
Organisations who are allowed to be discerning, and are allowed to act on best option, not cheapest (the Military) Have not ever selectected the R22 for basic training!!
Nuf said!!
Nuf said!!
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I've flown maybe 25 different CB/CBi airframes and every single one of them was right seat PIC. I've flown 9 different C's and they were all left seat PIC. For this reason all the CB/CBi's I've flown could not carry more than 2 people.
My 6penth worth: I've flown 900hrs in the 300, 70hrs in R22, I'd choose the 300 every time. Main reasons: weight limitations, cockpit size, rotor inertia, 'twitchiness' and cyclic control. R22 is alright if you have a long way to go and/or you own the aircraft...
My 6penth worth: I've flown 900hrs in the 300, 70hrs in R22, I'd choose the 300 every time. Main reasons: weight limitations, cockpit size, rotor inertia, 'twitchiness' and cyclic control. R22 is alright if you have a long way to go and/or you own the aircraft...