Air ambulance/ Police- winching/ onshore rescue
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The point that keeps being made to the AA fraternity (and keeps going in one ear and out of the other) is that winching can be be piece of pi$$ at times but having a winch bolted to the side of the aircraft will inevitably, one day, lead to a crew biting off more than they can chew. Pressure may be self-induced or externally applied and the subsequent decision to just, "give it a go", could lead to all sorts of difficulties for an inexperienced crew - especially crewmen.
The AA pilots list their career achievements with a great deal of self-satisfaction (you can always tell when someone's losing an argument when they start telling you their CV) but they're not the important ones. The winch-op is the critical co-ordinating middle-man and the winchman has to efficiently co-ordinate an often confused situation and without either having sufficient experience things can go wrong...quickly. By their own admission they won't have experience of complex winching scenarios because they tell us that they want to keep things simple but one day they'll feel duty bound to push it that little bit further. If they get away with it, they'll try similar again, so will their peers and before you know it they'll be plucking paragliders out of trees.
The point that keeps being made to the AA fraternity (and keeps going in one ear and out of the other) is that winching can be be piece of pi$$ at times but having a winch bolted to the side of the aircraft will inevitably, one day, lead to a crew biting off more than they can chew. Pressure may be self-induced or externally applied and the subsequent decision to just, "give it a go", could lead to all sorts of difficulties for an inexperienced crew - especially crewmen.
The AA pilots list their career achievements with a great deal of self-satisfaction (you can always tell when someone's losing an argument when they start telling you their CV) but they're not the important ones. The winch-op is the critical co-ordinating middle-man and the winchman has to efficiently co-ordinate an often confused situation and without either having sufficient experience things can go wrong...quickly. By their own admission they won't have experience of complex winching scenarios because they tell us that they want to keep things simple but one day they'll feel duty bound to push it that little bit further. If they get away with it, they'll try similar again, so will their peers and before you know it they'll be plucking paragliders out of trees.
Vie - far more eloquently put than I have managed but they still won't listen because they don't want to hear.
Heli - who is the service provider, what does the course actually entail, how many hours will they fly, who will ensure maintenance of standards once the course is complete, will the service provider monitor the first few winching jobs? I would like to see the answer to some of these questions before I am convinced this is being approached in a professional way. FF hasn't actually provided any facts, just advertised future capability and training issues that are GOING to be addressed - all these should have been sorted out before starting on about winching on this thread.
Thud - you gave the crappy example of a non-winching job to try and justify the YAA position on winching so don't be surprised when it gets torn to pieces.
FFs outfit and Berties are not the same, primarily because Bertie does have lots of winching experience and would be able to offer the appropriate levels of supervision which FF cannot match.
Please describe how the supervision and maintenance of standards will be accomplished within YAA other than an annual check ride. I keep having to come back to the point that Vie and myself reiterate - with a completely inexperienced crew you run a grave risk of trying too hard to get the job done. That has been the mainstay of my argument from the word go on this topic - all other imagined slights are exactly that - imagined.
Almost forgot - so you are not flying with docs on board every AA, despite you telling me how important it was......In fact you keep the docs in the hospital and only use them when required - hmmm I seem to remember that was what I suggested....but I was probably wrong then because I don't fly AA
Heli - who is the service provider, what does the course actually entail, how many hours will they fly, who will ensure maintenance of standards once the course is complete, will the service provider monitor the first few winching jobs? I would like to see the answer to some of these questions before I am convinced this is being approached in a professional way. FF hasn't actually provided any facts, just advertised future capability and training issues that are GOING to be addressed - all these should have been sorted out before starting on about winching on this thread.
Thud - you gave the crappy example of a non-winching job to try and justify the YAA position on winching so don't be surprised when it gets torn to pieces.
FFs outfit and Berties are not the same, primarily because Bertie does have lots of winching experience and would be able to offer the appropriate levels of supervision which FF cannot match.
Please describe how the supervision and maintenance of standards will be accomplished within YAA other than an annual check ride. I keep having to come back to the point that Vie and myself reiterate - with a completely inexperienced crew you run a grave risk of trying too hard to get the job done. That has been the mainstay of my argument from the word go on this topic - all other imagined slights are exactly that - imagined.
Almost forgot - so you are not flying with docs on board every AA, despite you telling me how important it was......In fact you keep the docs in the hospital and only use them when required - hmmm I seem to remember that was what I suggested....but I was probably wrong then because I don't fly AA
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Thud- far more eloquently put than I have managed but they still won't listen because they don't want to hear.
I admire your reasoned, careful replies to the strident minority. Of course, it is now obvious that you have lost your argument because you started telling us about your perfect background to take up that argument! Strikes me that Vie must be the complete pilot the way he feels free to criticise all others.
Crab and Vie
Once again, as Thud said, re-read Flaxton's post. It is all explained in careful detail and I'm not surprised he has left the post rather than waste his time talking to those who can't even be bothered to read and digest his posts.
Whereas I have lots of time!
I admire your reasoned, careful replies to the strident minority. Of course, it is now obvious that you have lost your argument because you started telling us about your perfect background to take up that argument! Strikes me that Vie must be the complete pilot the way he feels free to criticise all others.
Crab and Vie
Once again, as Thud said, re-read Flaxton's post. It is all explained in careful detail and I'm not surprised he has left the post rather than waste his time talking to those who can't even be bothered to read and digest his posts.
Whereas I have lots of time!
whoate - I understand the pressure that the unit manager will have been putting on FF and PAS to provide this capability, somehow I doubt that the impetus actually came from either the trustees or the paramedics themselves.
I also acknowledge that things are done differently outside the military and that keen and ambitious people try many things to make a name for themselves. When your choice is to do as you are told or lose your job, it maybe easier to accede to a course of action you don't neccessarily agree with rather than rock the boat.
However a fundamental question remains - why, when at the moment the paramedics only get 2 weeks of training before they are let loose in the helicopter and only work 2 weeks a month on it (reduced sometimes to 1 week in 4 because of time off etc), will they suddenly accept other training that takes them away from their core job, the extra personal risk and responsibility that comes with winching and continued assessment in order to maintain the skill levels required.
Don't get me wrong, the paramedics are very skilled in their own field but how many of them have actually volunteered for this extra task and possess the requisite aviation skills for the job?
The 902 may have the performance, just, to winch SSE for training but will inevitably not be SSE for operational winching, can that extra risk be justified? It will be the paramedics that get hurt, not the pilot or the unit manager or the trustees.
Finally, if this does go ahead as planned, no-one - especially FF - has shown any figures or weight of evidence (even anecdotally) to support the need for winches in the first place.
I also acknowledge that things are done differently outside the military and that keen and ambitious people try many things to make a name for themselves. When your choice is to do as you are told or lose your job, it maybe easier to accede to a course of action you don't neccessarily agree with rather than rock the boat.
However a fundamental question remains - why, when at the moment the paramedics only get 2 weeks of training before they are let loose in the helicopter and only work 2 weeks a month on it (reduced sometimes to 1 week in 4 because of time off etc), will they suddenly accept other training that takes them away from their core job, the extra personal risk and responsibility that comes with winching and continued assessment in order to maintain the skill levels required.
Don't get me wrong, the paramedics are very skilled in their own field but how many of them have actually volunteered for this extra task and possess the requisite aviation skills for the job?
The 902 may have the performance, just, to winch SSE for training but will inevitably not be SSE for operational winching, can that extra risk be justified? It will be the paramedics that get hurt, not the pilot or the unit manager or the trustees.
Finally, if this does go ahead as planned, no-one - especially FF - has shown any figures or weight of evidence (even anecdotally) to support the need for winches in the first place.
Just one more thing on a more helpful note - why not try recruiting some SAR winchmen/radops, you probably only need 2 or 3 and there are plenty who are fed up of the way the military is being shredded by the govt.
You would then have highly trained winch ops who just happen to be NHS paramedic qualified (in the case of the winchmen). Then suddenly you have all the required skill sets and lots of experience in one fell swoop. The only downside is cost - you won't be able to pay them the same £18-25K the paramedics get - you would have to start at £40K and work upwards - but as the AA fraternity never tire of pointing out, they can spend the donated money as they wish
Good luck!
You would then have highly trained winch ops who just happen to be NHS paramedic qualified (in the case of the winchmen). Then suddenly you have all the required skill sets and lots of experience in one fell swoop. The only downside is cost - you won't be able to pay them the same £18-25K the paramedics get - you would have to start at £40K and work upwards - but as the AA fraternity never tire of pointing out, they can spend the donated money as they wish
Good luck!
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Crab,
You fail to see that both Bertie and Flaxton come from the same pool of PAS pilots, employed like the rest for their wealth of experience in different fields of aviation. There are also a lot of ex SAR trained drivers that operate that very machine and am sure from my previous experience of flying HEMS in that part of the world would gladly welcome a winch ability.
In the past year i can think of at least a dozen incidents where we have turned up on scene and realized at an early stage that a winch equipped aircraft would be needed and requested SAR and gladly received their help. The only down side is that on average it takes them between 1- 1 1/2 hours to pitch up on scene... (Time that some patients don’t have).
Now ask yourself, how as an AA would you progress with an operating area that justifies it, and an aircraft, pilots and crews that are also capable?
uuummm..... FIT A WINCH MAYBE??
You fail to see that both Bertie and Flaxton come from the same pool of PAS pilots, employed like the rest for their wealth of experience in different fields of aviation. There are also a lot of ex SAR trained drivers that operate that very machine and am sure from my previous experience of flying HEMS in that part of the world would gladly welcome a winch ability.
In the past year i can think of at least a dozen incidents where we have turned up on scene and realized at an early stage that a winch equipped aircraft would be needed and requested SAR and gladly received their help. The only down side is that on average it takes them between 1- 1 1/2 hours to pitch up on scene... (Time that some patients don’t have).
Now ask yourself, how as an AA would you progress with an operating area that justifies it, and an aircraft, pilots and crews that are also capable?
uuummm..... FIT A WINCH MAYBE??
Tightgit
but having a winch bolted to the side of the aircraft will inevitably, one day, lead to a crew biting off more than they can chew.
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(quote) You would then have highly trained winch ops who just happen to be NHS paramedic qualified (in the case of the winchmen).
Crab,
for someone who appears to be all things to all men you need to check the source of your information, last time i looked not all winchmen were trained to nhs paramedic standards, just a small point but one i think you should be furnished with.
Crab,
for someone who appears to be all things to all men you need to check the source of your information, last time i looked not all winchmen were trained to nhs paramedic standards, just a small point but one i think you should be furnished with.
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Crab
Where is your evidence for this assumption? You demand evidence of training/assessment programs and evidence of aircraft weights , yet you feel free to bandy around "doubts" without any evidence of your own?
Double standards at work here?
I understand the pressure that the unit manager will have been putting on FF and PAS to provide this capability, somehow I doubt that the impetus actually came from either the trustees or the paramedics themselves.
Double standards at work here?
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Well what’s Crabs beef with Flaxton then?
At the moment when the scene is unsuitable to land the only way an Air Ambulance can get help to a patient is to hover deplane which puts the aircraft in an unsafe flight profile, presents the whole crew with an unnecessary risk and forces the deplaning paramedic to risk life and limb carting heavy medical equipment out of the aircraft and onto the ground........ Now do the sums.....
Add a winch and you substantially lower the risk that is already in place...maybe that’s the reason why the dam thing was invented and why so many emergency helicopters are fitted with them..... Yep breaking news and a first for UK Air Ambulances but get a life..... I doubt that the RAF SAR fleet is at risk from the YAA!!!
Russell,
p.s Maybe they should use mirrors if the pilots aren't the issue....
At the moment when the scene is unsuitable to land the only way an Air Ambulance can get help to a patient is to hover deplane which puts the aircraft in an unsafe flight profile, presents the whole crew with an unnecessary risk and forces the deplaning paramedic to risk life and limb carting heavy medical equipment out of the aircraft and onto the ground........ Now do the sums.....
Add a winch and you substantially lower the risk that is already in place...maybe that’s the reason why the dam thing was invented and why so many emergency helicopters are fitted with them..... Yep breaking news and a first for UK Air Ambulances but get a life..... I doubt that the RAF SAR fleet is at risk from the YAA!!!
Russell,
p.s Maybe they should use mirrors if the pilots aren't the issue....
Russell - I cannot imagine why you think I don't know that Bertie and FF are both employed by PAS - it's hardly a secret. My point was and is that Bertie knows what winching is all about and can provide guidance and supervision - FF doesn't and can't. Post Bertie to YAA and it would be a lot safer to add the winches.
As an AA I would stick to doing what you do extremely well and successfully -putting non-aircrew in aircrew posts is asking for trouble.
I presume if PAS get the YAA running with winches then all the remaining AA will follow suit, or is it just YAA that want this capability?
Medihell, ALL RAF winchmen are either NHS paramedic qualified or working towards it - I believe this to be true for the RN and is the intention of the MCA. This is why the College of SAR Medicine (CoSARM) was set up. Even those who are basic trained operate to the same protocols as the NHS and are technician equivalent until the extended IEC course is completed.
As an AA I would stick to doing what you do extremely well and successfully -putting non-aircrew in aircrew posts is asking for trouble.
I presume if PAS get the YAA running with winches then all the remaining AA will follow suit, or is it just YAA that want this capability?
Medihell, ALL RAF winchmen are either NHS paramedic qualified or working towards it - I believe this to be true for the RN and is the intention of the MCA. This is why the College of SAR Medicine (CoSARM) was set up. Even those who are basic trained operate to the same protocols as the NHS and are technician equivalent until the extended IEC course is completed.
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just happen to be NHS paramedic qualified (in the case of the winchmen).
Winch ops/Winch Persons: Brave, highly skilled people but they don't get to see and deal with serious trauma injuries to the same extent as the AA paramedics.
Russell - so winching without SSE capability isn't putting the aircraft and crew in an unsafe flight profile then??????And a longer exposure time!!! You don't seem to understand winching either
Who ate - no guesswork, just inside information.
PS you clearly know little of winchmen training or are you just relying on what you used to know?
Who ate - no guesswork, just inside information.
PS you clearly know little of winchmen training or are you just relying on what you used to know?
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winching without SSE capability isn't putting the aircraft and crew in an unsafe flight profile then??????
Last edited by whoateallthepies; 19th Feb 2008 at 18:01.
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Crab,
I'd much prefer to be 50-100' above a hill side with a single engine failure than 2', who knows we might have to adopt the same fly away procedure that you use, as for the cobblers with non aircrew in aircrew jobs.... The military quite happily turned me from a 17 year old spotty erck bricklayer into a fully trained safe, professional Day/ night IFR/ VFR winch, heli-absailing, fast roping experienced pilot with an ego that allows me to realize that even a ****wit under skilled paramedic can quite easily be trained to wind in and out a length of rope.
P.s I know of, both you and Flaxton and think you are both sterling gents, my views are not personal but mearly reflect the banter that Prune threads seem to encourage.
I'd much prefer to be 50-100' above a hill side with a single engine failure than 2', who knows we might have to adopt the same fly away procedure that you use, as for the cobblers with non aircrew in aircrew jobs.... The military quite happily turned me from a 17 year old spotty erck bricklayer into a fully trained safe, professional Day/ night IFR/ VFR winch, heli-absailing, fast roping experienced pilot with an ego that allows me to realize that even a ****wit under skilled paramedic can quite easily be trained to wind in and out a length of rope.
P.s I know of, both you and Flaxton and think you are both sterling gents, my views are not personal but mearly reflect the banter that Prune threads seem to encourage.
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Quote Crab
somehow I doubt that the impetus actually came from either the trustees or the paramedics themselves.
Wrong !
It was the medics who brought the idea to the table in the first place, due to response times of other agencies been poor in relation to time critical patients ! Russel
It seems they went away, and after lengthy research of their own requests for patients to be winched, they then asked " How & Where would we able to winch, so stopping this uncertain delay in care"
Further meetings and discussion with interested parties took place and a visit to a european operator well versed in winching with light twins helped their decision to put a case together to submit to Gatwick HQ.
Bingo !!!!! Approval
We shouldn't stop people wanting to go forward and better their unit's capability of delivery to the customer/patient , we should applaude it.
somehow I doubt that the impetus actually came from either the trustees or the paramedics themselves.
Wrong !
It was the medics who brought the idea to the table in the first place, due to response times of other agencies been poor in relation to time critical patients ! Russel
It seems they went away, and after lengthy research of their own requests for patients to be winched, they then asked " How & Where would we able to winch, so stopping this uncertain delay in care"
Further meetings and discussion with interested parties took place and a visit to a european operator well versed in winching with light twins helped their decision to put a case together to submit to Gatwick HQ.
Bingo !!!!! Approval
We shouldn't stop people wanting to go forward and better their unit's capability of delivery to the customer/patient , we should applaude it.
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If you read flaxtons reply he gives in detail how the Big house at gatwick want it delivering initially -no point running before you can walk - Paramedic down Paramedic up.
The idea was merely started like this
The idea was merely started like this
Who ate
Bloody hell, thats a bit of a broad statement! A car over a 100ft. cliff with four elderly ladies on board is not elastoplast and bandages fixable you know! Not as often as your guys see trauma granted, but still real!!
In situations like that, and major traffic incidents, don't both of your medics attend? How do you propose to do that if one of them is a winch op? He is the one who matters in all this! Not the stick stirrer in the front!
It is the training and continuation training of these individuals that I think Crab is trying to emphasise! Not the ability of all AA pilots to winch!
Winch ops/Winch Persons: Brave, highly skilled people but they don't get to see and deal with serious trauma injuries to the same extent as the AA paramedics.
In situations like that, and major traffic incidents, don't both of your medics attend? How do you propose to do that if one of them is a winch op? He is the one who matters in all this! Not the stick stirrer in the front!
It is the training and continuation training of these individuals that I think Crab is trying to emphasise! Not the ability of all AA pilots to winch!