The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions
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Partial Clutch Activation
I found this thread while researching a blog post on this topic. Had a similar thing happen with my R44 yesterday. In my case, may have been caused by water or dirt on the clutch activation switch. Used the Clutch Activation Tool to clear the problem.
Details here, if anyone wants to read about it:
An Eclectic Mind » Weird R44 Things: Partial Clutch Activation
Details here, if anyone wants to read about it:
An Eclectic Mind » Weird R44 Things: Partial Clutch Activation
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Do engines (R22) give noticeable warning signs just before failure?
Hi,
If the engine fails in an R22, the pilot has to react instantaneously to lower the collective in order to avoid complete rotor stall.
Would the pilot generally have some type of warning in advance that something is going wrong, so that they can at least somewhat reduce power before a complete failure? If so, are there situations (that happen in realistic numbers), where there is no warning whatsoever? I believe (more like hope) that there would be a warning, but I am not sure. How different are turbine engines?
Thanks a lot in advance!
If the engine fails in an R22, the pilot has to react instantaneously to lower the collective in order to avoid complete rotor stall.
Would the pilot generally have some type of warning in advance that something is going wrong, so that they can at least somewhat reduce power before a complete failure? If so, are there situations (that happen in realistic numbers), where there is no warning whatsoever? I believe (more like hope) that there would be a warning, but I am not sure. How different are turbine engines?
Thanks a lot in advance!
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Of course if you're in the ground effect hover/hover taxi don't lower the lever, correct the yaw and cushion the touchdown by applying collective and maintain attitude with cyclic.
With modern engines it's a very unlikely event, as with any aero engine, oil pressure and temp are the main warnings, then warning lights. If it's instant failure on the 22 then yaw may be the first thing you'll notice, followed rapidly by rotor horn.
With modern engines it's a very unlikely event, as with any aero engine, oil pressure and temp are the main warnings, then warning lights. If it's instant failure on the 22 then yaw may be the first thing you'll notice, followed rapidly by rotor horn.
OK
I have had a number of rough running engines almost always to do with plug leading or magneto failure
Both will get your attention very quickly, basically a lot of vibration and an obvious missfiring of the engine. However it will normally keep flying under protest.
Had a double mag failure had to do a run on landing as the engine hadnt stopped but as soon as you pulled power ( loaded the mags) they shorted out, not very funny at 30 kts 100 ft coming into land when you suddenly realise there is no power to arrest the sink rate
For an engine to stop completely you will normally find that it has run out of fuel.
Only time temp and pressure gague has alerted me was a student not putting the dipstick back in. Temp fine but pressure gone down by about 20 psi over where it was normally.
Brings me on to a more important point, never say t's and p's in the green. Get used to the machines you should be trend monitoring, if there is no apparant environmental reason why the ac is pulling another 2" of MP you have to ask your self is there a problem and not just acceept it. Look at your fuel gague not in quantity but in time, do you have enough time in fuel to COMFORTABLY get to your next fuel stop.
Sorry got to go fly now !
I have had a number of rough running engines almost always to do with plug leading or magneto failure
Both will get your attention very quickly, basically a lot of vibration and an obvious missfiring of the engine. However it will normally keep flying under protest.
Had a double mag failure had to do a run on landing as the engine hadnt stopped but as soon as you pulled power ( loaded the mags) they shorted out, not very funny at 30 kts 100 ft coming into land when you suddenly realise there is no power to arrest the sink rate
For an engine to stop completely you will normally find that it has run out of fuel.
Only time temp and pressure gague has alerted me was a student not putting the dipstick back in. Temp fine but pressure gone down by about 20 psi over where it was normally.
Brings me on to a more important point, never say t's and p's in the green. Get used to the machines you should be trend monitoring, if there is no apparant environmental reason why the ac is pulling another 2" of MP you have to ask your self is there a problem and not just acceept it. Look at your fuel gague not in quantity but in time, do you have enough time in fuel to COMFORTABLY get to your next fuel stop.
Sorry got to go fly now !
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cmon thomas thats possibly the most legitimate, life saving question to ask with some really useful answers... give the guy and us all a break stop being intimidating because its clearly putting people off asking some really good questions.
There are no limits
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I agree, TC - a bit harsh.
This could go two ways
Warning or non-warning.
Although we do not record the warning signs in a power loss event, my hypothesis is that a non-warning event is rare.
This is why we should do our best to know the technical aspects of our aircraft but also to understand what the warning signs are.
This could go two ways
Warning or non-warning.
Although we do not record the warning signs in a power loss event, my hypothesis is that a non-warning event is rare.
This is why we should do our best to know the technical aspects of our aircraft but also to understand what the warning signs are.
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An engine failing is a lot like a woman leaving you.
Looking back, all the signs were there, you just didn't recognize them for what they were. That little puff of smoke on start up. That tiny hesitation when you roll on the throttle. That little dip in oil pressure. That new collection of thong underwear.
As for the engine...who knows.
Looking back, all the signs were there, you just didn't recognize them for what they were. That little puff of smoke on start up. That tiny hesitation when you roll on the throttle. That little dip in oil pressure. That new collection of thong underwear.
As for the engine...who knows.
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I had an engine failure in a JetRanger. (FCU failure ). There was no warning. The first symptom, instantaneous, was a jolt earthwards as the lift component provided by the engine was eliminated. Yaw was a little slower to happen, as was reduction in airspeed.
I don't have any experience of failures in a Robinson.
I think a piston engine will often give you some clues in advance, but I'm guessing probably events at the actual moment of failure will be just as quick as a turbine in most cases.
Being current in PFLs certainly saved my life.
). There was no warning. The first symptom, instantaneous, was a jolt earthwards as the lift component provided by the engine was eliminated. Yaw was a little slower to happen, as was reduction in airspeed. I don't have any experience of failures in a Robinson.
I think a piston engine will often give you some clues in advance, but I'm guessing probably events at the actual moment of failure will be just as quick as a turbine in most cases.
Being current in PFLs certainly saved my life.
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I was in the back seat of a 206 that had a flameout. It became pretty obvious that something was wrong because the engine out warning horn came on along with the engine failure and transmission lights that lit up on the annunciator panel. I also remember the yaw but it wasn't so obvious in the back seat.
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It's a mechanical device. Thus it can fail with or without warning. Sometimes there is plenty of warning, sometimes there is none. The pilot has to be prepared for failure of everything on the aircraft, at any time, and it's the same for every helicopter, piston or turbine.
From what I've heard, the only real suprise sudden engine out on a piston is fuel related - or lack there of: no fuel = no fire = pooooof - no engine; and Carb icing is the other. Here the only indication is if you are keeping level flight, you'll either be slowing down or pulling more collective to keep up...the governor masks it quite well untill = poooof....
As TC said, car engines generally don't die so sudden. They get that rough sound/feel to it before they die. If you are flying only one or two machines, get to know them. Power checks and monitoring their norms will give you a warning for when it starts to go pear shaped, which hopefully you can get repaired will in advance.... and keep the machine clean. Nothing worse than using a dirty machine that someone doesn't give a hoot about. As soon as a leak appears, you'll spot it and get it seen to. I have flown a few dodgy and seen some frightning machines.....
Best advise other than that.............know your emergencies, and I'm not talking just about the auto - so many don't know what to do when a warning light comes on and end up wrapping a tree for nothing...!
As TC said, car engines generally don't die so sudden. They get that rough sound/feel to it before they die. If you are flying only one or two machines, get to know them. Power checks and monitoring their norms will give you a warning for when it starts to go pear shaped, which hopefully you can get repaired will in advance.... and keep the machine clean. Nothing worse than using a dirty machine that someone doesn't give a hoot about. As soon as a leak appears, you'll spot it and get it seen to. I have flown a few dodgy and seen some frightning machines.....
Best advise other than that.............know your emergencies, and I'm not talking just about the auto - so many don't know what to do when a warning light comes on and end up wrapping a tree for nothing...!
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We had a catastrophic failure in a H300 and it jammed solid just like that. There was about a 5 sec warning with some worrying noise, but that was it. So it can happen, for sure.
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If the engine fails in an R22, the pilot has to react instantaneously to lower the collective in order to avoid complete rotor stall.
The real answer is that you have one full second to react as that is the stipulated lag that must be test flown and verified prior to aircraft certification.
Another real answer is that they don't fail anywhere near like the frequency of other types used to as they are not running at as a high RPM or power rating as for example Hughes C models or Hiller 12's or Bell 47s.
Water or too much air in the fuel or severe carby ice is gauranteed to stop any engine. Sometimes you are lucky enough to get a slight cough before they stop suddenly. Water fouling or even a magneto idler drive shaft breakage in (in the bell 47 VO 435) will both cough or kick, ever so slightly first.
The only R22 sudden stoppage that I have experienced in flight was from dirty fuel. As the water accumulated, there was a slight kick and within half a second it stopped dead. As someone else said what happens first is the sudden drop feeling in the pit of your stomach.
Everything else follows pretty much at the same time in no consequental arrangement,
i.e. wtf, quickly stare at the disappeared ERPM and the disappearing RRPM, lever is already on the way down, pedals have gone in automatically, as tail swing starts, next the vision jumps back from the preselected spot back to the RRPM, wtf again, a quick brain flash, why? resolve- dammit -I am committed to landing -, hellup on the radio, as airspeed is checked, line up, complete landing, cuss in an unseemly manner and wait for help.
From 200 feet that all happens about as fast as you can read that paragraph about it.
From 100 feet it's about as fast as you read this sentence.
Failure of the drive belts and lower or upper pulley bearings usually give more of a kick, with a sudden bang noise, before the sudden drop feeling.
In the 47's the engine seem to be forever stopping or partially stopping,
The most terrifying is when the freewheel lets go. At the same time as you are digesting the - dropped lift - stogether with the very loud bang of it letting go, there is an almighty scream from the engine as it has just now hit maximum valve bounce speed, all the rest as above follows.
Just learn the basics, especially the bit about the lever going down. You don't go referring to any cards about it, you must know it and its very easy to learn from a good instructor. If you don't put that lever down and keep it down then either a wheel chair or a six foot deep hole awaits you.
and always, always, have a preselected spot, which of course has already taken into consideration the prevailing wind.
cheers tet
We used to do in-flight daily power assurance checks on our engines. I had an Allison C30 that was down suddenly on trend, it was reported to maintenance and they asked for a ground power assurance check. During the course of that ground power assurance check the engine suffered an uncontained turbine failure. The engine was a complete right-off. So yes, sometimes engines do give you prior warning that all is not well.
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Depends upon the type of engine failure. Pistons are different from turbine, so ignore B206, if you want to know about R22.
I had a sticky valve in an R22 in the cruise. Big kick in yaw and a distinct cough. Entered auto and the aircraft landed in a big field. Horn did not go on.
Pax in an R22 flown by a very knowledgable R22 expert (CP for a distributor). Very low on fuel (deliberately) in a 2 inch hover. Waited until the engine stopped which it did with absolutely no warning.
Phase of flight and loading is important, as it affects the time available to enter auto. Phase of flight also affects pilot workload which will affect time to lower lever probably.
I had a sticky valve in an R22 in the cruise. Big kick in yaw and a distinct cough. Entered auto and the aircraft landed in a big field. Horn did not go on.
Pax in an R22 flown by a very knowledgable R22 expert (CP for a distributor). Very low on fuel (deliberately) in a 2 inch hover. Waited until the engine stopped which it did with absolutely no warning.
Phase of flight and loading is important, as it affects the time available to enter auto. Phase of flight also affects pilot workload which will affect time to lower lever probably.
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Hi before,
It was quite a while ago but I think one of the lights said "ENGINE OUT". I also remember the transmission light and I believe it said "TRANSMISSION PRESSURE" but I'm not sure. With respect to the tail rotor I think it just said "TAIL ROTOR" but I could be wrong. However, I certainly remember the horn.
Thanks to a very cool pilot who handled the situation beautifully, we all walked away.
It was quite a while ago but I think one of the lights said "ENGINE OUT". I also remember the transmission light and I believe it said "TRANSMISSION PRESSURE" but I'm not sure. With respect to the tail rotor I think it just said "TAIL ROTOR" but I could be wrong. However, I certainly remember the horn.
Thanks to a very cool pilot who handled the situation beautifully, we all walked away.