Canada: Cormorant & Cyclone thread
Xmit: Yes the SAR S92 will incorporate the internal tank (port side) and allow for a stretcher on top. But as you intimated - this will INCREASE the range the SeaKing could go to, so it is an "enhancement" of the Service.
Merlin/101: Point to ponder (irrespective of its capability as a SAR cab/heavy lift / police a/c (Japan) et al):
The damn thing cost >70hrs maintenance for every hour it flies in the military. So in civvy speak it still equates to atleast >40hrs maintenance for every 1hr flying. The maintenance costs are astronomical.
Who in their right mind would ever entertain such a financially suicidal option???
Why buy a Bentley when a Mondeo fits perfectly?
Merlin/101: Point to ponder (irrespective of its capability as a SAR cab/heavy lift / police a/c (Japan) et al):
The damn thing cost >70hrs maintenance for every hour it flies in the military. So in civvy speak it still equates to atleast >40hrs maintenance for every 1hr flying. The maintenance costs are astronomical.
Who in their right mind would ever entertain such a financially suicidal option???
Why buy a Bentley when a Mondeo fits perfectly?
Since we are talking about an airframe (CH-149) that's already in service, it seems the Canadians did make at least ONE correct choice, the fact that they've quickly squandered that good sense by outsourcing maintenance to a third party offsets those gains.
TC, let's stay focused on the fact that your pet aircraft has been offered by Sikorsky as an "easily adaptable" off-the-shelf platform and see where the costs and target in service times have ended up, while the 101 would have been a mature DEDICATED airframe in 2004 at a known cost and fairly reliable delivery and IOC dates.
Just to stay on course, what is the projected maintenance/flight hours for the Cyclones? Anyone?
TC, let's stay focused on the fact that your pet aircraft has been offered by Sikorsky as an "easily adaptable" off-the-shelf platform and see where the costs and target in service times have ended up, while the 101 would have been a mature DEDICATED airframe in 2004 at a known cost and fairly reliable delivery and IOC dates.
Just to stay on course, what is the projected maintenance/flight hours for the Cyclones? Anyone?
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Cyclone hourly cost estimate
Will be wrong, everyones always is! (including AW for the 101), given the mission kit and added compelxity any S92 data is useless
BTW Portuguese/Danish 101 ROA is 400 nm...., with room for a P3 crew after pickup 1/2 way, how much cabin space does S92 need to fill with fuel to get that range/capability?
nuff said!
DM
BTW Portuguese/Danish 101 ROA is 400 nm...., with room for a P3 crew after pickup 1/2 way, how much cabin space does S92 need to fill with fuel to get that range/capability?
nuff said!
DM
TC: the one below is a press release, so, apart from some good PR, states anyway some facts...
____________________
09/04/13
AW101 completes challenging mid-Atlantic rescue
A Portuguese Air Force (PtAF) AW101 has successfully completed a challenging night-time rescue mission in the mid-Atlantic, coming to the aid of a Spanish sailor whose yacht had capsized.
The 360nm (670km) sortie demonstrated the long-range search and rescue capabilities of the AW101 and was the longest rescue mission conducted using the aircraft for a casualty in the sea. The PtAF had previously completed a 380nm rescue from a vessel. The Commanding Officer of 751 Squadron later paid tribute to the AW101, saying that the rescue was only possible because of its night-time and range capabilities.
Aircraft 19601 was called into action on February 3 following reports that solo yachtsman Javier Sanso had encountered difficulties while competing in the Vendee Globe round-the-world yacht race. Deploying from Lajes in the Azores, the crew embarked on a daunting 8.5 hour rescue that also involved a refuelling stop in Santa Maria before they could reach the scene of the incident.
The standard SAR configuration for the PtAF AW101 uses 3,000kg of fuel – enough for three hours’ cruise at 120kt plus 400-600kg of reserve fuel. For ultra long-range missions such as this one, the aircraft’s range can be extended through completely filling the internal tanks and by adding an internal ferry tank, holding about 900kg of fuel. The total fuel on board when departing Santa Maria was around 5,000kg and the helicopter was also stripped of all unnecessary equipment to reduce weight.
Conducting a search for the casualty in pitch black conditions, with no external reference points and completely on instruments, the crew eventually managed to locate Javier who was down to his final flare. Having dispensed this flare his last resort was to wave a handheld lantern to alert the crew to the position of his life raft.
With the aircraft low on fuel and time running out, he was recovered from the water suffering from the early effects of hypothermia but with no critical injuries. He was the flown back to the Azores for treatment in hospital.
The rescue also brought the number of lives saved by the AW101 since it entered service with the PtAF to 1,039.
PtAF operations are enabled by AgustaWestland's Full In Service Support (FISS) availability performance delivery system, which has fully supported the PtAF's operational needs for over 4 years. FISS successfully harmonises and integrates the management functions and functional outputs of the PtAF, AgustaWestland and key Portuguese suppliers to provide the necessary scheduled and corrective maintenance in addition to material and technical support.
________________________
... so, reading that AW101s in Portugal have already saved 1039 lives, at least they do not deserve to be called "damn things"
____________________
09/04/13
AW101 completes challenging mid-Atlantic rescue
A Portuguese Air Force (PtAF) AW101 has successfully completed a challenging night-time rescue mission in the mid-Atlantic, coming to the aid of a Spanish sailor whose yacht had capsized.
The 360nm (670km) sortie demonstrated the long-range search and rescue capabilities of the AW101 and was the longest rescue mission conducted using the aircraft for a casualty in the sea. The PtAF had previously completed a 380nm rescue from a vessel. The Commanding Officer of 751 Squadron later paid tribute to the AW101, saying that the rescue was only possible because of its night-time and range capabilities.
Aircraft 19601 was called into action on February 3 following reports that solo yachtsman Javier Sanso had encountered difficulties while competing in the Vendee Globe round-the-world yacht race. Deploying from Lajes in the Azores, the crew embarked on a daunting 8.5 hour rescue that also involved a refuelling stop in Santa Maria before they could reach the scene of the incident.
The standard SAR configuration for the PtAF AW101 uses 3,000kg of fuel – enough for three hours’ cruise at 120kt plus 400-600kg of reserve fuel. For ultra long-range missions such as this one, the aircraft’s range can be extended through completely filling the internal tanks and by adding an internal ferry tank, holding about 900kg of fuel. The total fuel on board when departing Santa Maria was around 5,000kg and the helicopter was also stripped of all unnecessary equipment to reduce weight.
Conducting a search for the casualty in pitch black conditions, with no external reference points and completely on instruments, the crew eventually managed to locate Javier who was down to his final flare. Having dispensed this flare his last resort was to wave a handheld lantern to alert the crew to the position of his life raft.
With the aircraft low on fuel and time running out, he was recovered from the water suffering from the early effects of hypothermia but with no critical injuries. He was the flown back to the Azores for treatment in hospital.
The rescue also brought the number of lives saved by the AW101 since it entered service with the PtAF to 1,039.
PtAF operations are enabled by AgustaWestland's Full In Service Support (FISS) availability performance delivery system, which has fully supported the PtAF's operational needs for over 4 years. FISS successfully harmonises and integrates the management functions and functional outputs of the PtAF, AgustaWestland and key Portuguese suppliers to provide the necessary scheduled and corrective maintenance in addition to material and technical support.
________________________
... so, reading that AW101s in Portugal have already saved 1039 lives, at least they do not deserve to be called "damn things"
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DM,
This is an extract from Sikorsky's own site
It can fly programmed search patterns for one
hour at 190 nautical miles (352 km) with standard
fuel and 345 nautical miles (639
km) with aux fuel. With standard
fuel the S92 helicopter can
rescue 2 survivors at 205 nautical miles (380 km) and ten at 180
nm (334 km). With the optional
auxiliary tanks installed these
distances expand out to 320 nm
(593 km) and 290 nm (537 km).
I think TC is a lost cause, he obviously has a rabid dislike of the Merlin and its derivatives.
I trained on them in 1998 and am still involved in their maintenace and what I can tell you is that a good support contract and a skilled workforce such as at Culd ensure the aircraft can meet all its tasking. I don't see the Seaking SAR boys gloating about how much work the Merlin guys have to do down here in sunny Cornwall and they often share a hardstanding.
As an engineer I'm very clear on how man hours are compiled for servicing and you shouldn't believe everything you read about the big bad Merlin and it's terrible serviceability. I fear that many of the past stories from operators who were still learning and dealing with immature supply chains and poor purchase and maintenance contracts; will be held up as empirical evidence of a "white elephant" by those who are probably nowhere near an operational Merlin today.
Cheers now
This is an extract from Sikorsky's own site
It can fly programmed search patterns for one
hour at 190 nautical miles (352 km) with standard
fuel and 345 nautical miles (639
km) with aux fuel. With standard
fuel the S92 helicopter can
rescue 2 survivors at 205 nautical miles (380 km) and ten at 180
nm (334 km). With the optional
auxiliary tanks installed these
distances expand out to 320 nm
(593 km) and 290 nm (537 km).
I think TC is a lost cause, he obviously has a rabid dislike of the Merlin and its derivatives.
I trained on them in 1998 and am still involved in their maintenace and what I can tell you is that a good support contract and a skilled workforce such as at Culd ensure the aircraft can meet all its tasking. I don't see the Seaking SAR boys gloating about how much work the Merlin guys have to do down here in sunny Cornwall and they often share a hardstanding.
As an engineer I'm very clear on how man hours are compiled for servicing and you shouldn't believe everything you read about the big bad Merlin and it's terrible serviceability. I fear that many of the past stories from operators who were still learning and dealing with immature supply chains and poor purchase and maintenance contracts; will be held up as empirical evidence of a "white elephant" by those who are probably nowhere near an operational Merlin today.
Cheers now
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Yes the SAR S92 will incorporate the internal tank (port side) and allow for a stretcher on top. But as you intimated - this will INCREASE the range the SeaKing could go to, so it is an "enhancement" of the Service
Why buy a Bentley when a Mondeo fits perfectly?
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Cyclone Cancellation
As opposed to my previous posts wherein I always attempted to provide some insight into reported rumours, this is different.
There are numerous stories today (unpublished/unconfirmed reports what I would normally consider to be nothing more than rumours) circulating here that the Canadian Cyclone contract is about to be cancelled for cause, if not today 29 Nov 2013, by early next week.
Does anyone have any further insight?
There are numerous stories today (unpublished/unconfirmed reports what I would normally consider to be nothing more than rumours) circulating here that the Canadian Cyclone contract is about to be cancelled for cause, if not today 29 Nov 2013, by early next week.
Does anyone have any further insight?
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Interesting, I heard a possibly unconnected but equally nebulous "rumour" here on the shop floor in Yeovil not an hour before I saw this post. Whatever, we certainly seem to be approaching an end game of one sort or other for this farce.
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It lives!
Government of Canada to continue with Maritime Helicopter Project and begin retiring Sea Kings in 2015
I/C
Today, the Government of Canada and Sikorsky announced that a Principles of Agreement (POA), which will form the basis of formal contract negotiations to put recommendations [from a Hitachi Consulting report] into place, was concluded on December 31, 2013.
Under the terms of the POA, Canada will see delivery of helicopters with operational capability sufficient to begin retirement of Sea Kings in 2015, and a program to enhance those capabilities culminating in a fully capable CH-148 Cyclone Maritime Helicopter in 2018.
Sikorsky has agreed to pay Canada $88.6 million in liquidated damages for non-delivery.
“We regret that we have not executed this program to the satisfaction of the Government of Canada and that no aircraft were delivered in 2013,” said Mick Maurer, President of Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation. “We recognize that we and our sub-contractors must do better.”
Under the terms of the POA, Canada will see delivery of helicopters with operational capability sufficient to begin retirement of Sea Kings in 2015, and a program to enhance those capabilities culminating in a fully capable CH-148 Cyclone Maritime Helicopter in 2018.
Sikorsky has agreed to pay Canada $88.6 million in liquidated damages for non-delivery.
“We regret that we have not executed this program to the satisfaction of the Government of Canada and that no aircraft were delivered in 2013,” said Mick Maurer, President of Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation. “We recognize that we and our sub-contractors must do better.”
I wonder who is going to pay for the outstanding Mods needed to ensure the Cyclone meets the spec,like EM protection,power and performance upgrade and or weight reduction and so on....and can Sikorsky actually achieve all this ?
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I also note the way Sikorsky have, even this time round, tried to spread the blame amongst other parties, notably the sub contractors! No, the only promises and schedules broken here than Canada needs to worry about are yours Sikorsky, your subcontractor issues are yours, they should be transparent to the vendor, it boggles the mind, it really does.
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Cyclone Rescue Aftermath Begins
Latest commentary on the subject from the Canadian fifth estate:
Chopper announcement disgraceful
January 6, 2014 - 8:56pm MARILLA STEPHENSON
Halifax Chronicle Herald
The Canadian government, completely bereft of the courage to cancel its bungled $5-billion Maritime Helicopter Program with Sikorsky, pulled a Friday Night Special last week.
The mission? Ensure minimal media coverage of the most embarrassing large-scale procurement contract in the government’s history. Notice of the new agreement was sent late Friday at closing time for federal offices. There was no technical briefing, no additional information.
Defence contractors and governments play a high-priced game with these massive taxpayer-funded contracts. Given the stakes and the three-decade history of Canada’s helicopter procurement project, Friday’s news release needed a certain amount of magic.
First, there was the unprecedented grovelling on the part of Sikorsky.
“We recognize that we and our subcontractors must do better,” said Sikorsky president Mick Maurer. “We have completely restructured our approach and added considerable new resources and technical expertise.”
There is little doubt Sikorsky, which built the Sea Kings, can produce excellent helicopters. The gap in the Cyclone contract seems to stem from the fact the Cyclone is being adapted from a commercial aircraft never before used for heavy-duty military use.
A federal auditor general report has previously criticized government officials for describing the contract as an “off the shelf” purchase when, in reality, it was anything but.
Myriad technical problems, some of which I outlined in a Dec. 17 column, have rendered the four developmental Cyclones at 12 Wing Shearwater unfit for Canada’s warships.
The agreement announced Friday is basically a deal to negotiate a new contract for the Cyclone. The aircraft were to have been delivered in 2008 and are now 10 years behind schedule.
The release, raising more questions than it answers, says the government will use helicopters “with operational capability sufficient to begin retirement of Sea Kings in 2015,” with compliant Cyclones first being delivered in 2018.
In short, Sikorsky has been handed 10 extra years to deliver compliant helicopters. There is no information on what helicopter capabilities the Canadian military will have to do without from 2015-18.
Meanwhile, Diane Finley, the minister of public works and government services, says no payments will be made until the compliant helicopters are delivered, and “Sikorsky has committed to deliver the needed helicopter capability at no additional cost to Canada.”
This statement is laughable. Canadian taxpayers have already paid untold millions of dollars — and will pay millions more — to deal with costs related to this project. The navy already paid to modify three Halifax-class frigates to carry the Cyclone, then paid to revert two of them back to Sea King specifications.
They are paying to keep the Sea Kings in the air, and will continue to pay for what is actually a developmental military helicopter, with all of the hiccups and technical glitches and adjustments that come when a country is the first to purchase complicated military hardware.
As for the $88.6 million in penalties the company is to pay, it will be traded for free future maintenance costs, a small portion of a huge maintenance component of the overall contract.
For decades, Canada’s military boasted a sterling reputation as the best submarine hunters in the world, with the Sea Kings increasing the range and protection for our warships.
The bulk of the fleet, based at CFB Halifax, was reinforced with helicopter air detachments from what was then CFB Shearwater. They left Halifax Harbour to undertake missions around the globe, with elite operational levels that were the envy of their allies.
It was Canada that developed what became known as the bear trap haul-down system that enabled a Sea King, attached by a cable to the deck of a destroyer, to land safely in the most challenging North Atlantic weather conditions, even in the black of night.
The Cold War, which included a huge increase in the Russian submarine fleet, has long been over. The operational role of the rugged Sea King, after 50 years of service, continues. But even with upgrades and modernization to the helicopter, advancing technologies have reduced Canada’s sub-hunting status. The days of being No. 1 are long gone, existing only in the nostalgic memories of misty-eyed naval air veterans.
Guided missiles are the more recent weapon of choice, but enemy submarines remain the largest hidden threat to Canada’s warships, even as this country invests $25 billion to upgrade its surface fleet. Meanwhile, the project to replace the Sea Kings has been woefully mismanaged, with political egos and partisan one-upmanship trumping the military’s operational needs.
The 12 Halifax-class frigates, which were developed to be paired with new maritime helicopters, first put to sea in 1992.
The first of the navy’s new warships announced in 2011, intended to replace both the old Iroquois-class destroyers and eventually the frigates, may well arrive at the jetties of CFB Halifax before the military manages to obtain a helicopter capable of flying from the decks of our superb surface fleet.
It’s a disgrace.
Chopper announcement disgraceful
January 6, 2014 - 8:56pm MARILLA STEPHENSON
Halifax Chronicle Herald
The Canadian government, completely bereft of the courage to cancel its bungled $5-billion Maritime Helicopter Program with Sikorsky, pulled a Friday Night Special last week.
The mission? Ensure minimal media coverage of the most embarrassing large-scale procurement contract in the government’s history. Notice of the new agreement was sent late Friday at closing time for federal offices. There was no technical briefing, no additional information.
Defence contractors and governments play a high-priced game with these massive taxpayer-funded contracts. Given the stakes and the three-decade history of Canada’s helicopter procurement project, Friday’s news release needed a certain amount of magic.
First, there was the unprecedented grovelling on the part of Sikorsky.
“We recognize that we and our subcontractors must do better,” said Sikorsky president Mick Maurer. “We have completely restructured our approach and added considerable new resources and technical expertise.”
There is little doubt Sikorsky, which built the Sea Kings, can produce excellent helicopters. The gap in the Cyclone contract seems to stem from the fact the Cyclone is being adapted from a commercial aircraft never before used for heavy-duty military use.
A federal auditor general report has previously criticized government officials for describing the contract as an “off the shelf” purchase when, in reality, it was anything but.
Myriad technical problems, some of which I outlined in a Dec. 17 column, have rendered the four developmental Cyclones at 12 Wing Shearwater unfit for Canada’s warships.
The agreement announced Friday is basically a deal to negotiate a new contract for the Cyclone. The aircraft were to have been delivered in 2008 and are now 10 years behind schedule.
The release, raising more questions than it answers, says the government will use helicopters “with operational capability sufficient to begin retirement of Sea Kings in 2015,” with compliant Cyclones first being delivered in 2018.
In short, Sikorsky has been handed 10 extra years to deliver compliant helicopters. There is no information on what helicopter capabilities the Canadian military will have to do without from 2015-18.
Meanwhile, Diane Finley, the minister of public works and government services, says no payments will be made until the compliant helicopters are delivered, and “Sikorsky has committed to deliver the needed helicopter capability at no additional cost to Canada.”
This statement is laughable. Canadian taxpayers have already paid untold millions of dollars — and will pay millions more — to deal with costs related to this project. The navy already paid to modify three Halifax-class frigates to carry the Cyclone, then paid to revert two of them back to Sea King specifications.
They are paying to keep the Sea Kings in the air, and will continue to pay for what is actually a developmental military helicopter, with all of the hiccups and technical glitches and adjustments that come when a country is the first to purchase complicated military hardware.
As for the $88.6 million in penalties the company is to pay, it will be traded for free future maintenance costs, a small portion of a huge maintenance component of the overall contract.
For decades, Canada’s military boasted a sterling reputation as the best submarine hunters in the world, with the Sea Kings increasing the range and protection for our warships.
The bulk of the fleet, based at CFB Halifax, was reinforced with helicopter air detachments from what was then CFB Shearwater. They left Halifax Harbour to undertake missions around the globe, with elite operational levels that were the envy of their allies.
It was Canada that developed what became known as the bear trap haul-down system that enabled a Sea King, attached by a cable to the deck of a destroyer, to land safely in the most challenging North Atlantic weather conditions, even in the black of night.
The Cold War, which included a huge increase in the Russian submarine fleet, has long been over. The operational role of the rugged Sea King, after 50 years of service, continues. But even with upgrades and modernization to the helicopter, advancing technologies have reduced Canada’s sub-hunting status. The days of being No. 1 are long gone, existing only in the nostalgic memories of misty-eyed naval air veterans.
Guided missiles are the more recent weapon of choice, but enemy submarines remain the largest hidden threat to Canada’s warships, even as this country invests $25 billion to upgrade its surface fleet. Meanwhile, the project to replace the Sea Kings has been woefully mismanaged, with political egos and partisan one-upmanship trumping the military’s operational needs.
The 12 Halifax-class frigates, which were developed to be paired with new maritime helicopters, first put to sea in 1992.
The first of the navy’s new warships announced in 2011, intended to replace both the old Iroquois-class destroyers and eventually the frigates, may well arrive at the jetties of CFB Halifax before the military manages to obtain a helicopter capable of flying from the decks of our superb surface fleet.
It’s a disgrace.
Dmanton300: In answer to your question and having dealt with both countries:
Norway: Rich (second richest on the planet after Saudi).
Canada: STUPID beyond belief (see above).
Next question.....................................
Norway: Rich (second richest on the planet after Saudi).
Canada: STUPID beyond belief (see above).
Next question.....................................
TC,
I agree that the latest decision by the Canadians is a little surprising, but in the situation they are currently in, what would you do?
Option 1 - the current plan (NB - this has capability gap written all over it)
Option 2 - upgrade/extend Sea King
Option 3 - Merlin. Expensive and politically embarrassing, but at least it is a proven modern ASW type
Option 4 - Something new. NH-90 anyone??
I agree that the latest decision by the Canadians is a little surprising, but in the situation they are currently in, what would you do?
Option 1 - the current plan (NB - this has capability gap written all over it)
Option 2 - upgrade/extend Sea King
Option 3 - Merlin. Expensive and politically embarrassing, but at least it is a proven modern ASW type
Option 4 - Something new. NH-90 anyone??
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TC,
I agree that the latest decision by the Canadians is a little surprising, but in the situation they are currently in, what would you do?
Option 1 - the current plan (NB - this has capability gap written all over it)
Option 2 - upgrade/extend Sea King
Option 3 - Merlin. Expensive and politically embarrassing, but at least it is a proven modern ASW type
Option 4 - Something new. NH-90 anyone??
I agree that the latest decision by the Canadians is a little surprising, but in the situation they are currently in, what would you do?
Option 1 - the current plan (NB - this has capability gap written all over it)
Option 2 - upgrade/extend Sea King
Option 3 - Merlin. Expensive and politically embarrassing, but at least it is a proven modern ASW type
Option 4 - Something new. NH-90 anyone??