Canada: Cormorant & Cyclone thread
 

Vancouver Sun.

I guess some things never change?

No matter the platform?

So what's the word on the Canadian Navy S92/CH148 delays ??
I see the rumour is the programme has slipped from late 2008 to late 2010...keep those Sea Kings going boys !!!

"So what's the word on the Canadian Navy S92/CH148 delays ??
I see the rumour is the programme has slipped from late 2008 to late 2010...keep those Sea Kings going boys !!!"

Defense Aerospace are saying three year slippage, which pushes it nearer to late 2011/2012. And pushes the Sea Kings three years nearer to their bus-passes.

For less $$, the agreement was commercial customers got head-of-the-line privileges.

So Agusta Westland was right then...Sikorsky couldn't meet the contract requirement !
Considering the Canadian need was urgent this sounds a lame excuse to me ,especially as some of the early civil sales were kinda subsidised to establish a broad market front ..more likely the DND has come to a new agreement rather than instituting the late penalty clauses.
It also sounds like plans to use the first aircraft for utility support in the Gulf/Afghanistan next year ahead of qualification of the ASW mission package are also gone out the window.
Still..nice to know NH90 isn't the only one having delivery problems.

I hear that the Fleet Air Arm has a few Merlins sat around at Culdrose not doing much. Perhaps if the Canadians ask nicely we might lend them ten or so to bridge the gap until the Cyclone *IS* ready?

No? Just a thought!:}

The Globe & Mail article:


(Don't let HC find out...... ;)

heli1 has a point. Another indication is that the successful 1st flight of the fly by wire controls occurred about a month ago, and this is part of the CH-148 kit. To fly, certify and productionize this in a year is quite a challenge.

I have seen no official Government or Sikorsky announcement, just the press report, which quoted the receiving units - a credible source, imho.

Sorry CEFOSKEY
I got it wrong. I meant 2 to 3 years as written about here.

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/natio...0-8f85b0ce52c5

MHP quite a challenging contract.

Listening to a high ranking CAF officer discussing Canadas helicopter plans earlier this week it was noticeable that the H-92 didn't feature...and he clearly had given up on forecasting delivery !

Uh-Oh. (again)
 

Cost overruns endanger copter deal

Ottawa warns it could kill contract after U.S.-based Sikorsky requests up to $500-million more in its bid to replace aging Sea Kings


DANIEL LEBLANC and STEVEN CHASE AND BRIAN LAGHI
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
April 30, 2008 at 1:30 AM EDT

OTTAWA — Federal officials are threatening to cancel a $5-billion contract with Sikorsky Inc. because the U.S.-based helicopter maker is asking for up to $500-million in extra funds to replace Canada's 40-year-old Sea Kings.
Senior sources said the relationship between Ottawa and Sikorsky took a turn for the worse after the firm acknowledged this year that it was running late in its plans to provide 28 high-tech Cyclone helicopters to the Canadian Forces.
The government's controversial efforts to replace the Sea Kings, which go back to the early 1990s, are now complicated by Sikorsky's request for more funds to deliver replacement helicopters.
Sikorsky officials refused to comment on the current negotiations, but senior federal officials said the company has requested between $250-million and $500-million in new funding.

Sikorsky Inc. won a competition in 2004 to provide 28 Cyclone helicopters to the military, agreeing to deliver the first helicopter in January of 2009. Now, sources say, delivery could be delayed by nearly two years. (The Canadian Press)

Sources said there is talk in government that the Cyclones need a “more powerful engine” to meet Canada's requirements, and that delivery could be delayed by nearly two years even with additional money. High-ranking sources said the contract dispute is causing concerns at the highest levels of the government, and that cancellation of the contract is a possibility. If new funding were to be offered, the government would be seeking ironclad guarantees that Sikorsky would deliver the aircraft at the new agreed-upon time.


“All of the options are on the table,” a federal official said.
“We can cancel or come to a compromise.”
The Conservative government of Brian Mulroney had ordered new helicopters to replace the Sea Kings in 1992, but former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien cancelled the purchase as soon as he came to power the following year.
Conservative officials are still furious at the Liberal decision, arguing that the deal would have already allowed the Canadian Forces to replace the Sea Kings with Cormorant helicopters.
Sikorsky won a competition in 2004 to provide 28 helicopters to replace the fleet of Sea Kings. At contract signing, Sikorsky agreed to deliver the first helicopter in January of next year.
The maximum penalty on the contract for late delivery is $36-million.
Sikorsky president Jeffrey Pino was in Ottawa recently to discuss the delays in the production of the Cyclones with government officials. A spokesman for Sikorsky, however, refused to elaborate on the ongoing negotiations.
“We hope to have an agreement within the next several weeks, by the end of May,” company spokesman Paul Jackson said.
The government is now working to determine when it can take delivery of the first helicopter, and what it needs to do to get there.
“Once we have completed our review of the contractor's claimed reasons for delay, we will be in a position to determine Canada's next steps,” said Lucie Brosseau, a spokeswoman for Public Works Canada.
“Canada is keeping all of its contractual and legal options open to minimize delay in procuring new maritime helicopters,” she said.
A defence source said that the government is in discussions with Sikorsky to determine “what capabilities could be delivered and at what point.”
Another government official said there are concerns within the government regarding the aircraft that will be delivered by Sikorsky.
The issue, according to the source, is “a perception that Sikorsky cannot deliver a helicopter that is compliant to what was ordered.”
However, sources in the defence industry said a cancellation of the contract would not help the Canadian Forces meet their original need, which is to replace the Sea King helicopters as soon as possible.
“There is no plan for what they could do after,” an industry specialist said.
“Whether they like it or not, [the government and Sikorsky] are married.”
General Rick Hillier, the Chief of the Defence Staff, has expressed frustration at the delay in the delivery of the helicopters.
“We just need to get an aircraft, we need to get it quickly, and we'd like to have it in service as soon as we possibly can,” he said earlier this year.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...30.wchoppers30

It's simple really - anything involving Airbus, Eurocopter or Augusta Westland is crap, was awarded through political deviancies/exigencies, will be delayed and cost millions to sort out, anything Boeing or Sikorsky is great, the best thing since sliced bread, and any detractors are talking arse.

Easy!

B787 anybody?

How much more powerful ? It should already have more power per ton empty than the Cormorant :hmm:

The USMC needed this type of leadership on the V-22
 

Ottawa refuses to pay extra for helicopters

Sikorsky must live up to $5-billion contract, Public Works Minister says


DANIEL LEBLANC
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
May 1, 2008 at 5:03 AM EDT

OTTAWA — The Harper government refused yesterday to fork over any extra cash to Sikorsky Inc., which has asked for hundreds of millions in additional funds to deliver promised helicopters to the Canadian Forces.
Issuing a warning that applies to all federal suppliers, Public Works Minister Michael Fortier said Sikorsky has to live up to its $5-billion contracts to provide 28 Cyclone helicopters to replace Canada's 40-year-old Sea Kings.
"When the government signs a deal with a supplier for a specific good at price X, that's the price the government should pay for that good," said Mr. Fortier, a lawyer and former banker.
"Where I come from, a price is not an approximation, it's not an estimate. ... In this case, the price was set at contract signing."
Sikorsky won a competition in 2004 to replace Canada's aging fleet of Sea King maritime helicopters. At signing, the firm agreed to deliver the first replacement aircraft next January.


But Sikorsky told the government earlier this year that it will not meet the original deadline, invoking a delay of up to 30 months.
Senior government officials told The Globe and Mail this week that Sikorsky is also asking for $250-million to $500-million in extra funding to give additional power to its helicopter.
However, Mr. Fortier said the U.S.-based firm has to find a way to meet its contract. If that doesn't happen, he made a thinly veiled threat to cancel the deal and find another way to replace the Sea Kings, which are nearing the end of their life cycle.
"I gave clear direction to my deputy minister that he was to try and break the logjam and find a solution, but at the same time, we are working, as we should be, on alternative solutions if we can't come to an agreement with the supplier," Mr. Fortier said in an interview.
There is hope in government that a solution could flow from the fact that the newly installed chief executive officer at Sikorsky's parent company, United Technologies Corp., is Quebecker Louis Chênevert.
Sikorsky officials are refusing to comment on discussions with the government, except to say the goal is to reach an agreement by the end of the month.
Government officials have been told that the prototypes for the Cyclones are struggling to reach key requirements set out by National Defence, such as conducting a typical anti-submarine mission in two hours and 50 minutes.
There is speculation in the aircraft industry that Sikorsky wants to provide the Canadian Forces with a helicopter that has a more powerful engine, a bigger gearbox and a fifth rotor, which would allow it to meet all requirements.
However, such a helicopter would be more costly than the original four-bladed version proposed by Sikorsky.
The Conservative government of Brian Mulroney had ordered new helicopters to replace the Sea Kings in 1992, but former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien cancelled the purchase as soon as he came to office in 1993.
"If the previous government had respected the contract that had been signed, we wouldn't be here, because we would already have the helicopters. They made a decision and they'll have to live with it," Mr. Fortier said.
NDP MP Dawn Black said replacing the Sea Kings has been a "saga of ineptitude" involving both the previous Liberal and the current Conservative governments.

Ottawa has it dead right: not a dime more for Sikorsky


The Gazette

Published: 3 hours ago
The tragicomic running saga of buying helicopters to replace the Canadian Forces' decrepit Sea Kings added another chapter last week. Sikorsky, a division of United Technologies Corp., is trying to shake down Canadian taxpayers for an extra quarter of a billion dollars - or maybe half a billion dollars. Why? The answer could be summed up in one word: "Oops."
The helicopter maker, which won the $5-billion order in 2004 for 28 Cyclone choppers, has decided, after careful consideration, that it will need those extra hundreds of millions to meet all the specifications and produce an aircraft that can perform all the jobs that Canadian Forces explained in great detail to all bidders a mere 17 years ago. The additional swag will pay for more powerful engines and for five-blade rotors instead of four-bladed ones.
Not on your life, replied Public Works Minister Michael Fortier. That might have been a shock to Sikorsky - defence procurement is usually pretty clubby - but it is an admirable stance, and we hope Fortier sticks to it.


His position is not just limpid, but appears unassailable legally: "When the government signs a deal with a supplier for a specific good at price X," Fortier said, "that's the price the government should pay for that good ... A price is not an approximation; it's not an estimate."
He then hinted unmistakably that unless Sikorsky fulfills its obligations at the agreed-upon price, Canada will look elsewhere for a supplier.
That should not be an empty threat. It has been 17 years since Ottawa decided to replace the Sea Kings, and the aged machines have been involved in 10 deaths. This fiasco over the choppers has truly been a bi-partisan effort. Both the Liberals and Conservatives have played with this deal over the years to gain political mileage. Fortier's pushback against Sikorsky is a refreshing change from business as usual.
Seventeen years is enough. Sikorsky should deliver the helicopters with the capabilities it promised when it won the deal. And at the price it promised.

Now would it make a difference if they altered the order, possibly keep the five blades however drop the fly by wire option?
For that matter just get on board with the civilian operators who are already enjoying the success of the aircraft.
What would the benefit of fly by wire (on the 92 specifically) be?

Bags we go second!

Cyclone Fly by wire
 

I believe that fly by wire is primarily being installed to off-set the weight being added by installing the main and tail rotor fold mechanisms and other sundry items?
So let’s review; forty-eight months from contract award to develop, test, certify and put into production a complete new and untested control system, haul down and deck securing system, foldable tail and main rotor, weapon carrying capability plus all of that electronic gadgetry in the back. (And still try to convince yourself that it is still a COTS aircraft).

I believe that Sikorsky builds the best maritime helicopters in the World and if anyone could have pulled this off it would have been them, however I suppose that the impossible takes a little longer.

All of this kinds of begs the question of why did AW quietly drop their law suite against the Canadian Government recently? The law suite was based on the opinion that Sikorsky would not be able to meet the contract, specifically the 48 month time line and therefore should have been eliminated from the bidding. Apparently they were right. :confused::confused::confused::confused:

I guess if they have trouble getting funding for more powerful engines they could always add a third. Add an extra rotor blade, make the cabin a bit larger, rename it Chimo or Petrel and I reckon you'll end up with. . . . well, pretty much what they could have had in the mid-late 90's.
Ho hum. . . . .

(edited May 12th) Remarkable how quiet this particular topic has become since Sikorsky all but admitted what Canada really needed was a Merlin and asked for another half billion dollars to build it for 'em.

One can't help but quote ZH844 from those halcyon days of 2004 when Sikorsky won:-
" I would be careful with the comments as give it five years and you will be eating tons of humble pie!"
Oops! Two's up on yer crystal ball ZH!