What do you make of this?
Avoid imitations
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I think the title "engineer" is historical; going back to the industrial revolution, the time when Sikorsky was still a Russian and when there was no need for an English / American dictionary.
However, it may please some to hear that the term may be outlawed under EASA regulations and replaced with something like "aircraft maintainer".
Another "triumph for Europe", as if it matters
However, it may please some to hear that the term may be outlawed under EASA regulations and replaced with something like "aircraft maintainer".
Another "triumph for Europe", as if it matters
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i guess it would translate to licensed mechanic. i just wanted to be clear on this if i could as i will be applying for mechanics apprentiships next year and dont want to be applying for the wrong thing.
I would be quite happy being a mechanic ( and carrying the title of "only a mechanic") and working through the ranks to chief mechanic and maybe in the future moving into engineering if a company would sponsor me.
I would be quite happy being a mechanic ( and carrying the title of "only a mechanic") and working through the ranks to chief mechanic and maybe in the future moving into engineering if a company would sponsor me.
Its a bit like the thing that always used to make me wonder.
Medical practitioners get called Dr but most hold no Doctorate (Phd.)
Nick is right I think in his absolute definitions, but in the UK if you want your aircraft looked at in a timely fashion don't call them mechanics, and remember to buy them beer at Christmas, it won't be too long until its politically incorrect to celebrate that either.
The English language can be bad enough at times, and then we have dialects from around the world.
Back to thread for a moment, like B73 says do you want to assemble them or fix them ?
Agusta Westland is probably a good company to serve an apprenticeship at if you want to become a hands on engineer. Good luck to you.
Medical practitioners get called Dr but most hold no Doctorate (Phd.)
Nick is right I think in his absolute definitions, but in the UK if you want your aircraft looked at in a timely fashion don't call them mechanics, and remember to buy them beer at Christmas, it won't be too long until its politically incorrect to celebrate that either.
The English language can be bad enough at times, and then we have dialects from around the world.
Back to thread for a moment, like B73 says do you want to assemble them or fix them ?
Agusta Westland is probably a good company to serve an apprenticeship at if you want to become a hands on engineer. Good luck to you.
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Yes, Dr Who has dialects. Scary things, designed by engineers, maintained by robots.
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thanks veeany.
I would rather fix at first and maybe move into engineering later. I just dont want to go back to full time study right now.
I assuming you could move from mechanic to engineer and AW for example would support that? Even if you hadnt worked for them previously?
I would rather fix at first and maybe move into engineering later. I just dont want to go back to full time study right now.
I assuming you could move from mechanic to engineer and AW for example would support that? Even if you hadnt worked for them previously?
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Some of the best engineers (and I mean those with degrees) are the ones who have served an apprenticeship learning all the nuts and bolts of their preferred discipline. Those who have served as technicians before getting a college degree have the benefit of learning the practice before the theory.
I fully support aircraft mechanics / technicians going for higher education - we need more of 'em.
I fully support aircraft mechanics / technicians going for higher education - we need more of 'em.
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Reminds of my degree (Mechanical Engineering) - we had to write about how the term "Engineer" had become so abused in general. The example we were given is the guy who comes round to fix your washing machine is job titled as an engineer....
Think the Lecturer was especially peeved that Engineers in the UK generally didn't get the same level of recognition as elsewhere in the world - apparently it was a yearly assignment
Think the Lecturer was especially peeved that Engineers in the UK generally didn't get the same level of recognition as elsewhere in the world - apparently it was a yearly assignment
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Garn, do yourself a favour and get hold of Stroud Engineering Mathematics. Go through this when the apprentiship gives you a chance, and that degree stuff will eventually be a breeze.
If i had my time over i would have beaten a path to Westland instead of chosing the financial security offered by an apprentiship at Rover...
PS: I'm a professional engineer who holds a skilled technician in high esteem.
HUMS, i've worked my way up to shoe-shine-boy, i don't know why you think engineers are trodden on in UK.
If i had my time over i would have beaten a path to Westland instead of chosing the financial security offered by an apprentiship at Rover...
PS: I'm a professional engineer who holds a skilled technician in high esteem.
HUMS, i've worked my way up to shoe-shine-boy, i don't know why you think engineers are trodden on in UK.
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The term engineer came abour due to everything aviation being based on nautical terms used in aviation, still to this day all over the world every ship at sea has captain, first officer, second etc.. also chief engineer, first engineer etc...
Sure the world is changing and so are peoples job description, so the plate lickers didn't like being called stewards / stewardess anymore so they pushed and pulled til they got their titles changed to flight attendants and now slowly the pursers are geting their titles changed to the very exciting one of cabin manager.
I use the term engineer for myself as after a four year apprentiship and a few extra years of study and exams the commonwealth government has given me this title, maybe if I did my A+P in seven days and the FAA gave me a ticket to certify everything for a tiger moth to a 747 I would not be so keen to use it.
Also as a helicopter pilot I do not use the term Captain as that is really a title that needs a bit more respect. Those that do use it 150 hours of training in a R22 I consider complete tossers and got into the industry for their egos sake, maybe one day if I get behind the wheel of a A380 I might reconsider.
I have nothing against University trained engineers and they have their place in aviation and I for one are happy they are sitting next to a computer all day in a cubical with Autocad 2004 because I would rather slam my d*ck in a car door than do that for the rest of my life. I have had this discussion many times before with degree holding engineers before and they really couldn't give a hoot what we are called.. they seem to be more up set by the new generation of "software" and "genetic" engineers using their title.
Me.. I like tradition and will continue to use it for as long as it winds up those on their pedestals who think they are something special for what job they do for a living.
Sure the world is changing and so are peoples job description, so the plate lickers didn't like being called stewards / stewardess anymore so they pushed and pulled til they got their titles changed to flight attendants and now slowly the pursers are geting their titles changed to the very exciting one of cabin manager.
I use the term engineer for myself as after a four year apprentiship and a few extra years of study and exams the commonwealth government has given me this title, maybe if I did my A+P in seven days and the FAA gave me a ticket to certify everything for a tiger moth to a 747 I would not be so keen to use it.
Also as a helicopter pilot I do not use the term Captain as that is really a title that needs a bit more respect. Those that do use it 150 hours of training in a R22 I consider complete tossers and got into the industry for their egos sake, maybe one day if I get behind the wheel of a A380 I might reconsider.
I have nothing against University trained engineers and they have their place in aviation and I for one are happy they are sitting next to a computer all day in a cubical with Autocad 2004 because I would rather slam my d*ck in a car door than do that for the rest of my life. I have had this discussion many times before with degree holding engineers before and they really couldn't give a hoot what we are called.. they seem to be more up set by the new generation of "software" and "genetic" engineers using their title.
Me.. I like tradition and will continue to use it for as long as it winds up those on their pedestals who think they are something special for what job they do for a living.
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Stirring here, but what the heck.
If a licence reads "Engineer" or 'Mechanic" then that that's fine, call it as it reads. I guess that a PIC of a 747 I would also call it as it reads on their licence wouldn't they? ALTP or is it ALTC?
STL
If a licence reads "Engineer" or 'Mechanic" then that that's fine, call it as it reads. I guess that a PIC of a 747 I would also call it as it reads on their licence wouldn't they? ALTP or is it ALTC?
STL
As this is an English speaking forum the Oxford English Dictionary (compact) makes a good guide.
Engineer
A person qualified in a branch of engineering.
A person who makes or is in charge of engines.
A person who maintains machines (a mechanic, a technician ).
This is the definition of the word. If someones ego drives them to believe it has a higher meaning "frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
To take Nick Lappos mechanics (in which he includes licensed engineers) earn 40% of what a "real " engineer earns and put figures to it we get the following.
For a UK based licensed engineer working shifts, 6 months with present employer, one company type rating.
£48,000 divide by 4 multiply by 10. A "real" engineer working for wastelands must be on £120,000 ($240,000)!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dream on Nick.
At the moment licensed engineers in the UK are doing ok. We are largely with Bellsux on this one. We don't give a ****e about the graduates who believe that 3 years in a university entitles them to a "title". Most of us have spent far longer achieving our qualification levels.
We can read the papers and we know what salaries "real " engineers are being offered in the UK jobs market. By and large we don't care because in general we earn more and we aren't stuck behind a desk clock watching.
Bellsux
I like the title Bellsux, as I am spending a lot of my time time working on the S76 (known over here as the plastic pig) I thought a new handle of Sikorskyshyte might be in order. What do you think?
Engineer
A person qualified in a branch of engineering.
A person who makes or is in charge of engines.
A person who maintains machines (a mechanic, a technician ).
This is the definition of the word. If someones ego drives them to believe it has a higher meaning "frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
To take Nick Lappos mechanics (in which he includes licensed engineers) earn 40% of what a "real " engineer earns and put figures to it we get the following.
For a UK based licensed engineer working shifts, 6 months with present employer, one company type rating.
£48,000 divide by 4 multiply by 10. A "real" engineer working for wastelands must be on £120,000 ($240,000)!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dream on Nick.
At the moment licensed engineers in the UK are doing ok. We are largely with Bellsux on this one. We don't give a ****e about the graduates who believe that 3 years in a university entitles them to a "title". Most of us have spent far longer achieving our qualification levels.
We can read the papers and we know what salaries "real " engineers are being offered in the UK jobs market. By and large we don't care because in general we earn more and we aren't stuck behind a desk clock watching.
Bellsux
I like the title Bellsux, as I am spending a lot of my time time working on the S76 (known over here as the plastic pig) I thought a new handle of Sikorskyshyte might be in order. What do you think?
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I thought a new handle of Sikorskyshyte might be in order. What do you think?
Why not Sikorskyferret?
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Those that build 'em over here are labelled as Aeronautical engineers. Similarly those that build Bridges and roads are Civil engineers.
For a fair while those that empty the bedpans used to study the mechanics of the 'job' in house, they were labelled nurses.
Now they are nurses aids. The real nurses in this fair country go to uni for quite a while to learn fluid hydraulics etc, which was supposed to help them to empty bed pans back in the ward.
But wait there is more, now there is a revolt and it has been decided that real nurses are hopeless when they return from the house of scholarship but instead should learn the trade 'on the job'.
schematics - mechanics - word definitions etc. maybe this little ditty which came across my desk today will help all to understand.
It goes like this and the "to-and-froms" here may know what it is all about.
Old mate buys a teddy bear for a xmas gift for ten bucks.
He calls it Mohammed.
He decides that he doesn't like it so he cashes it in on Ebay for $30.
Now the poor fella in totally confused, did he make a prophet or not?
For a fair while those that empty the bedpans used to study the mechanics of the 'job' in house, they were labelled nurses.
Now they are nurses aids. The real nurses in this fair country go to uni for quite a while to learn fluid hydraulics etc, which was supposed to help them to empty bed pans back in the ward.
But wait there is more, now there is a revolt and it has been decided that real nurses are hopeless when they return from the house of scholarship but instead should learn the trade 'on the job'.
schematics - mechanics - word definitions etc. maybe this little ditty which came across my desk today will help all to understand.
It goes like this and the "to-and-froms" here may know what it is all about.
Old mate buys a teddy bear for a xmas gift for ten bucks.
He calls it Mohammed.
He decides that he doesn't like it so he cashes it in on Ebay for $30.
Now the poor fella in totally confused, did he make a prophet or not?
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I have no problem with someone who has done a four year apprentiship, and studied to get the qualification, calling themselves an engineer. The objection comes from when the term "engineer" is used by some accountant to describe the guy who is filling in a pothole.
To clarify my profession from the highly qualified and respectable profession of helicopter maintenance engineer, i use the term design engineer. My actual job description is durability, dynamics and design engineer (sadly outside of helicopters). I have no problem at all with rolling up my sleeves and helping out to build a new prototype, and will willingly accept the advise of an experienced mechanic.
I used the term technician in my ealier post to differentiate between design and maintenance activities. I do not regard a technician as a lower profession, and frankly could not do what the technicians i work with do. They have no problem with being called technicians - it implies technical expertise in a specific application.
To clarify my profession from the highly qualified and respectable profession of helicopter maintenance engineer, i use the term design engineer. My actual job description is durability, dynamics and design engineer (sadly outside of helicopters). I have no problem at all with rolling up my sleeves and helping out to build a new prototype, and will willingly accept the advise of an experienced mechanic.
I used the term technician in my ealier post to differentiate between design and maintenance activities. I do not regard a technician as a lower profession, and frankly could not do what the technicians i work with do. They have no problem with being called technicians - it implies technical expertise in a specific application.
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garn
To answer your original question...........the apprenticeship is for production, which means doing the same thing time and time again
.......only go there if it is your last resort.
The reason i say this is because the only piece of paper worth having at the end of your apprenticeship is an EASA Part-66 licence. Any company not preparing you for a licence is only interested in keeping you long term in a job with little or no prospects. To earn big money, you need a licence. To move up into maintenance management, you need a licence. Simple.
A quick guide to the different levels of maintainer;
Fitter....can do most jobs, supervised all the time...........£25K
Catagory A licence holder.....can do and sign for basic stuff, (oils, wheel change).......£25K-£30K
Catagory B licence holder.....can sign for his and other peoples, (fitters) work......£30K basic, realistically £55K with shift/type rating/overtime/call-out pay
Catagory C licence holder.....signs off the big base maintenance jobs. Usually a manager.....£50K+
In summary, a licence is the difference between £25K and £50K
P.M. me if you want details of a rotary company who do offer Licence apprenticeships.
To answer your original question...........the apprenticeship is for production, which means doing the same thing time and time again
.......only go there if it is your last resort.The reason i say this is because the only piece of paper worth having at the end of your apprenticeship is an EASA Part-66 licence. Any company not preparing you for a licence is only interested in keeping you long term in a job with little or no prospects. To earn big money, you need a licence. To move up into maintenance management, you need a licence. Simple.
A quick guide to the different levels of maintainer;
Fitter....can do most jobs, supervised all the time...........£25K
Catagory A licence holder.....can do and sign for basic stuff, (oils, wheel change).......£25K-£30K
Catagory B licence holder.....can sign for his and other peoples, (fitters) work......£30K basic, realistically £55K with shift/type rating/overtime/call-out pay
Catagory C licence holder.....signs off the big base maintenance jobs. Usually a manager.....£50K+
In summary, a licence is the difference between £25K and £50K
P.M. me if you want details of a rotary company who do offer Licence apprenticeships.
Shy torque,
I would not consider for a second associating the noble ferret with the builders of the plastic pig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to say that the S76 does have it's good points. Many an engineer has paid off his mortgage from the necessary overtime generated to keep the beast flying.
In fact one engineer of my aquaintance would never hear a bad word said against it for this reason alone.
I would not consider for a second associating the noble ferret with the builders of the plastic pig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to say that the S76 does have it's good points. Many an engineer has paid off his mortgage from the necessary overtime generated to keep the beast flying.
In fact one engineer of my aquaintance would never hear a bad word said against it for this reason alone.
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Ericferret,
Fair enough, your choice but just keep my name out of it too, thanks.
Good aircraft when it stays serviceable; in the absence of the French I blame the engineers. Hang on though - the engines are French....
Fair enough, your choice but just keep my name out of it too, thanks.
Good aircraft when it stays serviceable; in the absence of the French I blame the engineers. Hang on though - the engines are French....