What do you make of this?
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US Department of Labor Statistics for Occupations
Aircraft mechanic and service technician - Diagnose, adjust, repair, or overhaul aircraft engines and assemblies, such as hydraulic and pneumatic systems. Include helicopter and aircraft engine specialists.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes493011.htm
Mean hourly pay $22.95, mean annual salary $49,300
Aerospace Engineer - Perform a variety of engineering work in designing, constructing, and testing aircraft, missiles, and spacecraft. May conduct basic and applied research to evaluate adaptability of materials and equipment to aircraft design and manufacture. May recommend improvements in testing equipment and techniques.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172011.htm
mean hourly pay $42.92 Mean annual salary $89,260
A graduate engineer makes 1.81 times the pay of a mechanic-engineer
Both are honorable professions, but one should never confuse one for the other, even if your language does.
Aircraft mechanic and service technician - Diagnose, adjust, repair, or overhaul aircraft engines and assemblies, such as hydraulic and pneumatic systems. Include helicopter and aircraft engine specialists.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes493011.htm
Mean hourly pay $22.95, mean annual salary $49,300
Aerospace Engineer - Perform a variety of engineering work in designing, constructing, and testing aircraft, missiles, and spacecraft. May conduct basic and applied research to evaluate adaptability of materials and equipment to aircraft design and manufacture. May recommend improvements in testing equipment and techniques.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172011.htm
mean hourly pay $42.92 Mean annual salary $89,260
A graduate engineer makes 1.81 times the pay of a mechanic-engineer
Both are honorable professions, but one should never confuse one for the other, even if your language does.
Shy Torque
I will never mention you again, bugger just did!!!!!!!
Looks like the mechanics have had a pay rise since Nicks original post. I make it that they are now earning more than 50% of a "real engineers" pay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have the same types of statistics in the UK jobs guide. A book aimed at careers teachers and students. According to that document a licensed engineer earns £20/30,000 a year.
Our unlicensed mechanics were earning over £30,000 a year 3 years ago from a basic of about £22,000+bonus+overtime. All this with a shift system that required them to attend for only 150 days a year!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody should underestimate the value of a skilled mechanic. When it comes to getting checks done on night shifts they are the engine that shifts the work.
However the operators require certifying engineers to sign for the mechanics work and to release the aircraft to service, which is where the licensed engineers come in. They take the resposibility and carry the can when it goes wrong. They get paid accordingly (if they are lucky).
Out of interest what does an I.A earn in the States if they still have them?
I will never mention you again, bugger just did!!!!!!!
Looks like the mechanics have had a pay rise since Nicks original post. I make it that they are now earning more than 50% of a "real engineers" pay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have the same types of statistics in the UK jobs guide. A book aimed at careers teachers and students. According to that document a licensed engineer earns £20/30,000 a year.
Our unlicensed mechanics were earning over £30,000 a year 3 years ago from a basic of about £22,000+bonus+overtime. All this with a shift system that required them to attend for only 150 days a year!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody should underestimate the value of a skilled mechanic. When it comes to getting checks done on night shifts they are the engine that shifts the work.
However the operators require certifying engineers to sign for the mechanics work and to release the aircraft to service, which is where the licensed engineers come in. They take the resposibility and carry the can when it goes wrong. They get paid accordingly (if they are lucky).
Out of interest what does an I.A earn in the States if they still have them?
Thread Starter
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thanks bravo,
I was already going to send a letter to premiair and im based in far south west in twickenham, but willing to move for the job.
Ive also has eurocopter in oxford highly recomended for the apprentice cource.
I was already going to send a letter to premiair and im based in far south west in twickenham, but willing to move for the job.
Ive also has eurocopter in oxford highly recomended for the apprentice cource.
If you fancy going further afield Bristows are at Norwich and CHC at North Denes (Yarmouth).
CHC have been recruiting recently and are providing plenty of training. Bristows are supposed to be loosing a lot of guys due to retirement in the near future.
CHC have been recruiting recently and are providing plenty of training. Bristows are supposed to be loosing a lot of guys due to retirement in the near future.
Avoid imitations
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Both are honorable professions, but one should never confuse one for the other, even if your language does.
Totally agree, though but as far as keeping us flying it's far better to have a hangar full of mechanics than engineers. Keep the engineer away from the spanners, in the office by the phone. Then if he gets a difficult question he's covered both ways; he can either phone a friend or go into the hangar and ask a mechanic.
Notice that I'm doing my bit for international relations; I did call them mechanics for our transatlantic cousins. We all know they are "ginger beers" really though.
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Our language? We gave you a perfectly good language
Back to the semantics issue: poteito, potato.....
Last edited by rockpecker; 22nd Dec 2007 at 22:11. Reason: spelling!!!
Really Nick and his mates should speak German, they take the engineer thing really seriously over there. It being a title you can use like Doctor, or Colonel, e.g Dipl.Ing Kurt Tank.
The man who designed The Focke Wulf 190.
I understand that at some point in the history of the USA they actually had a vote on what was to be the main language of the country and German lost by a narrow margin.
Oh the irony of it.
Whereas we ungodly Brits have the gall to take the piss out of the whole thing.
Still it's our language.
If they Americans don't want it they can always give it back. Then they will really impress
the world with those German compound words
Reichsluftfahrtministerium for some reason always sticks in my mind!!!!!!!!!!!
The man who designed The Focke Wulf 190.
I understand that at some point in the history of the USA they actually had a vote on what was to be the main language of the country and German lost by a narrow margin.
Oh the irony of it.
Whereas we ungodly Brits have the gall to take the piss out of the whole thing.
Still it's our language.
If they Americans don't want it they can always give it back. Then they will really impress
the world with those German compound words
Reichsluftfahrtministerium for some reason always sticks in my mind!!!!!!!!!!!
Previously mentioned in another thread the story of the formation of the Royal Air Force in 1918 adds to this saga.
Trenchard (not sure if he was Lord by then ) wanted the title "Marshall" for the top job in the fledgling service.
He was heavily opposed by those pointing out that this title was only given to the elite,
Field Marshall, Marshall de France e.t.c
His response was two words, Provost Marshall. He won the argument.
Trenchard (not sure if he was Lord by then ) wanted the title "Marshall" for the top job in the fledgling service.
He was heavily opposed by those pointing out that this title was only given to the elite,
Field Marshall, Marshall de France e.t.c
His response was two words, Provost Marshall. He won the argument.
This page from the Royal Aeronautical Society the professional body representing the aircraft industry in the UK might shed a little light.
www.raes.org.uk/cms/uploaded/files/GCAA1.pdf
So if I want an Eng after my name all I have to do is apply for it.
Reminds me of that old BT advert with " Beattie" gassing on the phone about her son
"he's got an 'ology" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
www.raes.org.uk/cms/uploaded/files/GCAA1.pdf
So if I want an Eng after my name all I have to do is apply for it.
Reminds me of that old BT advert with " Beattie" gassing on the phone about her son
"he's got an 'ology" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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A good natured grumble...
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
Totally agree, though but as far as keeping us flying it's far better to have a hangar full of mechanics than engineers. Keep the engineer away from the spanners, in the office by the phone. Then if he gets a difficult question he's covered both ways; he can either phone a friend or go into the hangar and ask a mechanic.
BTW, when i want to evaluate a new design I always seek the advise of the technicians who will be building the prototype. For practical advise, and new design evaluation, they are king in my book.
Last edited by Graviman; 23rd Dec 2007 at 14:33.
Ah the glorious design engineers.
This is how they used to do design repair schemes up in Aberdeen for the S61's.
1 Licensed engineer finds corrosion hole where engine bay meets the structure under the fibreglass fillets.
2 Licensed engineers makes up suitable repair plates I.A.W the repair manual.
3 Licensed engineers takes the plates into the office and photocopies them, rivet holes and all.
4 Licensed engineer faxes the copies to engineering in Aberdeen.
5 One week later a set of drawings appears with all the little engineering bells and whistles on them.
By then the aircraft has already being flying for a week.
This is how they used to do design repair schemes up in Aberdeen for the S61's.
1 Licensed engineer finds corrosion hole where engine bay meets the structure under the fibreglass fillets.
2 Licensed engineers makes up suitable repair plates I.A.W the repair manual.
3 Licensed engineers takes the plates into the office and photocopies them, rivet holes and all.
4 Licensed engineer faxes the copies to engineering in Aberdeen.
5 One week later a set of drawings appears with all the little engineering bells and whistles on them.
By then the aircraft has already being flying for a week.
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Good story Eric. I'm amazed you got the drawings back in a week!
I'm not in the helicopter industry, but have been at the opposite end of similar problems (fatigue not corrosion). If the design engineer is doing his/her job right, he/she will have done some kind of calculation to prove (or otherwise) that the repair will go the distance.
I can't speak for your experience, but i know what i would do is get a drawing back ASAP with some basic calculation to show it worked. A week is probably about right for a reasonably simple mod. If this looked like it could become an epidemic i would also do Finite Element calcs to prove out a field fix for all machines. Once this was sorted my next task would be to make sure that production were fitting this field fix. I would then design and stress up a modification for production which would stop the problem reoccuring. This might all take a month or two (with the right software).
Believe me i have lost sleep over some problems. If the problem involves picking up a spanner then i let it get too far. Can i use a spanner? Sure, i've replaced head gaskets and such. But the point is i shouldn't need to. There are professionals out there that have the training, experience and equipment required to get the job right. I have a genuine respect for that.
A design engineer earns his keep turning a blank sheet of paper into a product. This means he/she needs to understand the problem from every perspective. That's why we waste so much time studying. The design engineer's job is to figure that there is a market for a replacement to the S-61, then do all the design, analysis, testing and development required to produce the S-92. There is a lot more to it than most folk show any interest in understanding (which really does annoy me).
Shawn Coyle is right about practical ability making for a better engineer though - if you can get "Eng" after your name then you should go for it.
I'm not in the helicopter industry, but have been at the opposite end of similar problems (fatigue not corrosion). If the design engineer is doing his/her job right, he/she will have done some kind of calculation to prove (or otherwise) that the repair will go the distance.
I can't speak for your experience, but i know what i would do is get a drawing back ASAP with some basic calculation to show it worked. A week is probably about right for a reasonably simple mod. If this looked like it could become an epidemic i would also do Finite Element calcs to prove out a field fix for all machines. Once this was sorted my next task would be to make sure that production were fitting this field fix. I would then design and stress up a modification for production which would stop the problem reoccuring. This might all take a month or two (with the right software).
Believe me i have lost sleep over some problems. If the problem involves picking up a spanner then i let it get too far. Can i use a spanner? Sure, i've replaced head gaskets and such. But the point is i shouldn't need to. There are professionals out there that have the training, experience and equipment required to get the job right. I have a genuine respect for that.
A design engineer earns his keep turning a blank sheet of paper into a product. This means he/she needs to understand the problem from every perspective. That's why we waste so much time studying. The design engineer's job is to figure that there is a market for a replacement to the S-61, then do all the design, analysis, testing and development required to produce the S-92. There is a lot more to it than most folk show any interest in understanding (which really does annoy me).
Shawn Coyle is right about practical ability making for a better engineer though - if you can get "Eng" after your name then you should go for it.
Last edited by Graviman; 24th Dec 2007 at 11:28. Reason: Because editing looses the spaces between paragraphs! Howl!
Avoid imitations
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Graviman, just try not to take the banter too seriously, old chap. A fag packet sketch is fine though; I've built cars using those. 
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Apologies Shytorque - i was getting a little carried away there. My speciality is the fag packet sketch.
It's a raw nerve which comes from having to defend my role to other departments. Part of it is that have lived in US, France and Germany. I found when i said i was an engineer folks would ask which discipline, in the UK folks assume i mean plumber or electrician. Feels a bit unfair for so much hard work...
Merry Christmas all!
It's a raw nerve which comes from having to defend my role to other departments. Part of it is that have lived in US, France and Germany. I found when i said i was an engineer folks would ask which discipline, in the UK folks assume i mean plumber or electrician. Feels a bit unfair for so much hard work...
Merry Christmas all!
Graviman
Time spent studying is never wasted unless youv'e turned down the opportunity for a shag.
Take my case
1999 Boeing type course airframe and engine 8 weeks
2000 Another Boeing type course airframe and engine 5 weeks
2001 Boeing avionics and electrics type course 5 weeks
2002 Boeing avionics and electrics course 4 weeks
2003 Airbus airframe engine electrics avionics 12 weeks in total
2004 Boroscope and engine running courses
2005 Human factors training, Boeing airstair course
2006 Airbus refresher course one week
2007 Continuation and refresher training
2008 At least 1 possibly 2 type courses plus further electrical and avionics training.
Could be the busiest training year yet.
One of the issues that is supposed to separate "real" engineers from the herd is continuous
professional development. I wonder how many can point to a similar amount of training?
This is for experienced engineers at the back ends of their careers. We are required to keep this up to the bitter end. I wonder how many disciplines require this level of commitment throughout a career?
Over Christmas and new year (with little chance of a shag) I will have the electrics theory out, ready to have my brain fried and boiled afresh in January.
Time spent studying is never wasted unless youv'e turned down the opportunity for a shag.
Take my case
1999 Boeing type course airframe and engine 8 weeks
2000 Another Boeing type course airframe and engine 5 weeks
2001 Boeing avionics and electrics type course 5 weeks
2002 Boeing avionics and electrics course 4 weeks
2003 Airbus airframe engine electrics avionics 12 weeks in total
2004 Boroscope and engine running courses
2005 Human factors training, Boeing airstair course
2006 Airbus refresher course one week
2007 Continuation and refresher training
2008 At least 1 possibly 2 type courses plus further electrical and avionics training.
Could be the busiest training year yet.
One of the issues that is supposed to separate "real" engineers from the herd is continuous
professional development. I wonder how many can point to a similar amount of training?
This is for experienced engineers at the back ends of their careers. We are required to keep this up to the bitter end. I wonder how many disciplines require this level of commitment throughout a career?
Over Christmas and new year (with little chance of a shag) I will have the electrics theory out, ready to have my brain fried and boiled afresh in January.
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Try medicine. Any of the surgical disciplines in particular.
Any technically/scientifically orientated profession where continuous updating is not required, is suspect. Gotta keep the noodle fresh and supple!
Any technically/scientifically orientated profession where continuous updating is not required, is suspect. Gotta keep the noodle fresh and supple!
I always fancied being a surgeon. It's watching the sheeties in action that does it.
Don't bugger about, cut a big enough hole so you can get in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Disc cutter, Windy, tinsnips, oh f*ck, big hammer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't bugger about, cut a big enough hole so you can get in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Disc cutter, Windy, tinsnips, oh f*ck, big hammer.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Garn,
No doubt you are considering your temperment while evaluating design vs. line work options. Line work favors those who prefer discrete, physical, linear tasks with a clear beginning and end and relatively immediate feedback; design work those who can work in a more abstract internal way and can tolerate delayed (or the absence of) feedback. Line work provides greater opportunity for travel or unique locations while design work is more of a stable office environment. (Sort of a “Car Talk’ vs. ‘Office Space’ comparison, if you are familiar with US entertainment.) That said, I almost always prefer designers who got their start in the ops world – these folks think more holistically, can quickly orient themselves on the platform, understand the interaction between the component they are working with and other systems and the user, and understand the cost of doing business (especially the costs when things go wrong). There also seems to be a mission focus often lacking in those who have only operated a desk.
As for promotion, I suppose that depends on what you mean. If by this you mean money money, I suggest you look elsewhere as aviation is like an NGO, where you are here because it is something you love and not for the lifestyle. That said, aviation is usually a meritocracy, where knowledge is key. It’s like ericferret says, a true professional is always learning, and this is what generates advancement. And if you start off on the line side and decide you would rather be driving a desk (or vice versa), you can always do change course. That’s one of the wonderful things about aviation… if there is a specific subject that interests you, you can always create a niche.
As for writing the checklist versus using the checklist, a good designer will always validate their work with someone in the field prior to publication.
Best of luck to you, whichecver path you choose,
Jolly
No doubt you are considering your temperment while evaluating design vs. line work options. Line work favors those who prefer discrete, physical, linear tasks with a clear beginning and end and relatively immediate feedback; design work those who can work in a more abstract internal way and can tolerate delayed (or the absence of) feedback. Line work provides greater opportunity for travel or unique locations while design work is more of a stable office environment. (Sort of a “Car Talk’ vs. ‘Office Space’ comparison, if you are familiar with US entertainment.) That said, I almost always prefer designers who got their start in the ops world – these folks think more holistically, can quickly orient themselves on the platform, understand the interaction between the component they are working with and other systems and the user, and understand the cost of doing business (especially the costs when things go wrong). There also seems to be a mission focus often lacking in those who have only operated a desk.
As for promotion, I suppose that depends on what you mean. If by this you mean money money, I suggest you look elsewhere as aviation is like an NGO, where you are here because it is something you love and not for the lifestyle. That said, aviation is usually a meritocracy, where knowledge is key. It’s like ericferret says, a true professional is always learning, and this is what generates advancement. And if you start off on the line side and decide you would rather be driving a desk (or vice versa), you can always do change course. That’s one of the wonderful things about aviation… if there is a specific subject that interests you, you can always create a niche.
As for writing the checklist versus using the checklist, a good designer will always validate their work with someone in the field prior to publication.
Best of luck to you, whichecver path you choose,
Jolly
