New London Heliport
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Brassemup.
This post started on another forum and was moved into rotorheads. That was the only reason I noticed it.
It is perfectly obvious that most in this forum disagree with my stance. But the original post asked for reaction to a proposal, so I think it perfectly reasonable that he/she should know that the idea will meet strong opposition.
This post started on another forum and was moved into rotorheads. That was the only reason I noticed it.
It is perfectly obvious that most in this forum disagree with my stance. But the original post asked for reaction to a proposal, so I think it perfectly reasonable that he/she should know that the idea will meet strong opposition.
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Interesting to look at E London Pax comments. He probably reflects most landlubbers in that he doesn't give a s**t who flies over his house at 2240 or whatever - he wants to lash out at someone and "put a stop to it". If it is flying over London at night (out of Battersea's normal operating hours) it is a 95% probability to be the Met or one of the other police ASUs. Most of the other 5% will be catered for by Air Ambulance or SAR operating in a similar role. They will all be (rightly) protected, but the emotions that are generated by those who are anti will have a go at an easier target, that is essentially nothing to do with night helicopter flying over London.
It is a shame that the Met chose a noisy "new" helicopter fleet, but that is water under the bridge now.
Those of us concerned to see commercial helicopter flying continue and prosper in and around London need to make sure that the fact that noise from hele night flying over London is not due to commercial traffic is understood and appreciated.
It is a shame that the Met chose a noisy "new" helicopter fleet, but that is water under the bridge now.
Those of us concerned to see commercial helicopter flying continue and prosper in and around London need to make sure that the fact that noise from hele night flying over London is not due to commercial traffic is understood and appreciated.
I'm going to bite on a couple of these if you don't mind:
Brilliant Stuff:
Of course it can, I would much rather train at a civilised hour than at 0130 in the morning, but when there are only one or two aircraft serviceable, then you take the training at whatever time you can get.
WHBM
They may not be on an anti-terrorist op (then again they might), but they may be training for one. They may have been in E Anglia, 16 AA Brigade at Colchester are a favorite user, If you draw a straight line between Colchester and Odiham, you will find a large town in the way. They may have been able to go round, but maybe they went round the previous night, 2 nights, 5 nights, every night for a fortnight etc, and thought they would give those people living there a rest, or perhaps they were running out of crew hours, or aircraft hours, or the aircraft was needed for a real anti-terrorist op and needed to go back in as straight a line as possible, who knows? To insinuate that they were only going there because "you think" it is "interesting" is to insult all of us.
WHBM:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4478124.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yapP2BA_ARw or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR1PmSlBS5Y
Looks fairly 'major city'-ish to me. Baghdad to be precise. Ok so they're during the day, but they do this at night too. Can you imagine doing that at night without any training? Training you can't do in case WHBM gets woken up?
To get realistic training to do that, we would need to low fly routinely, by day and night, over major urban areas (Baghdad is roughly the size of Birmingham). We don't though, because we do actually understand that there is a balance to be struck. So we take the training that we can get, and if that happens to be near your house at an uncivilised hour, then so be it.
Brilliant Stuff:
Training can be done at a civilised hour which is still in the dark. I understand the need for doing training landing sat the hospitals but does it have to be at 0130hrs in the morning?
WHBM
I think the nighttime Chinook formation that WHBM was complaining about were not on any anti-terrorist operations at all (which is always the gut reaction to any complaint nowadays it seems) but were on a return from East Anglia back to Odiham and it seemed like an "interesting" Navex to route low level over Central London through the night.
WHBM:
no, we don't see the slightest relevance of how sending formations of transport helicopters transiting over your own major cities in the middle of the night contributes to any training
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yapP2BA_ARw or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR1PmSlBS5Y
Looks fairly 'major city'-ish to me. Baghdad to be precise. Ok so they're during the day, but they do this at night too. Can you imagine doing that at night without any training? Training you can't do in case WHBM gets woken up?
To get realistic training to do that, we would need to low fly routinely, by day and night, over major urban areas (Baghdad is roughly the size of Birmingham). We don't though, because we do actually understand that there is a balance to be struck. So we take the training that we can get, and if that happens to be near your house at an uncivilised hour, then so be it.
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Crab and Pastcicabdriver
there is always more than meets the eye isn't it? That is why communication is so important. I apologise for living in my little perfect world. I am glad I made the comments I made because this way I learned something again. It teaches me again not to make rash opinions about things I don't know enough about.
We must keep communicating or else we end up as billy no mates.
It's a shame that so many selfish people have so much power over the vast number of selfless people.
there is always more than meets the eye isn't it? That is why communication is so important. I apologise for living in my little perfect world. I am glad I made the comments I made because this way I learned something again. It teaches me again not to make rash opinions about things I don't know enough about.
We must keep communicating or else we end up as billy no mates.
It's a shame that so many selfish people have so much power over the vast number of selfless people.
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If Crab and PlasticcabDriver had claimed that they had to practice flying the London Heli-routes by day and night for purposes of access in times of alert, their operations within the London Zone would be understandable and justifiable. To claim that they have to fly routinely by day and night over urban areas to keep up their precious skills is, quite frankly, laughable. The attitude " if that is what it takes, so be it" is sadly typical of the RAF outlook on airspace sharing as typified by the ongoing fast jet versus helicopter confliction at low level.
Might I suggest that regular users of the heli-lanes monitor closely use by the military and make a point of recording non adherence to routes and altitudes and submit them to the BHAB for comment.
Might I suggest that regular users of the heli-lanes monitor closely use by the military and make a point of recording non adherence to routes and altitudes and submit them to the BHAB for comment.
Avoid imitations
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Might I suggest that regular users of the heli-lanes monitor closely use by the military and make a point of recording non adherence to routes and altitudes and submit them to the BHAB for comment.
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Reading this thread was such a scream!
It's so quiet at night here that we can hear the badgers snoring. Helicopter noise is the only disturbance but we know what's going on and believe that the pilots are careful NOT to disturb unless necessary.
We happily sleep
through RN Sea King and Lynx training, the AA on its way north or east and even the occasional AW night flight test.
Can't sleep in London though
...
... and put a Chinook in the same county ...
Never a less appropriate handle
NIMBY
It's so quiet at night here that we can hear the badgers snoring. Helicopter noise is the only disturbance but we know what's going on and believe that the pilots are careful NOT to disturb unless necessary.
We happily sleep
through RN Sea King and Lynx training, the AA on its way north or east and even the occasional AW night flight test.Can't sleep in London though
...... and put a Chinook in the same county ...
Never a less appropriate handle
NIMBY
To claim that they have to fly routinely by day and night over urban areas to keep up their precious skills is, quite frankly, laughable
How is it laughable? Did you not look at the videos? We ask our crews to fly by day and night at low level over large urban areas in hot and sandy places, but then we complain when they have the temerity to try and train for that in case we get woken up? We would like to fly routinely at night over urban areas because it provides the most realistic training, but we do not. We can do some of it in the simulator, but even the best simulators cannot fully replicate the real experience, so some has to be done in real life. There is a wide variety of HLSs in London that go someway to providing realistic training for those crews expected to land in tight HLSs in cities at night on Ops. However, it is kept to a minimum, because we do actually realise that it annoys people.
Might I suggest that regular users of the heli-lanes monitor closely use by the military and make a point of recording non adherence to routes and altitudes and submit them to the BHAB for comment.
Please do. If there is evidence of deliberate rule breaking or unprofessionalism it needs to be dealt with. Why limit it to the military though? Are civilian crews perfect in every respect in the Helilanes? Perhaps AlanM could shed some light?
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in 1985 a consortium tried to do exactly what you are proposing & had planning permission refused,(i was living in a flat by Southwark bridge where it was going to be based at the time)Today it is ten times more likely planning perm would be refused,especially with the current mayor of London,so don't waste your time.
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Perhaps AlanM could shed some light?
And before anyone asks, us mere controllers do not report anyone for this alone!
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In response to ShyTorque, it may have escaped your notice that the whole question of operating helicopters over London is under close scrutiny and, more worryingly, great is the interest of the environmental lobby and politicians anxious to collect votes. It will only take a few more instances of Chinooks at 500 feet all the way down H4 and H3 to raise awareness of the noise problem. I, for one, would like to safeguard my livelihood for a little while longer.
To PlasticCabDriver I would merely say that of course civilian crews transgress but there is in place machinery to record and discipline where necessary - the Battersea ATCO`s are particularly adept at filing MOR`s when they feel that a regulation has been threatened. The only course of action regarding a specific incident involving an RAF machine from Odiham has been to refer the matter to Wing Commander Ops. This results, not surprisingly, in a deafening silence.
To PlasticCabDriver I would merely say that of course civilian crews transgress but there is in place machinery to record and discipline where necessary - the Battersea ATCO`s are particularly adept at filing MOR`s when they feel that a regulation has been threatened. The only course of action regarding a specific incident involving an RAF machine from Odiham has been to refer the matter to Wing Commander Ops. This results, not surprisingly, in a deafening silence.
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The only course of action regarding a specific incident involving an RAF machine from Odiham has been to refer the matter to Wing Commander Ops. This results, not surprisingly, in a deafening silence.
There was also a case in which the UK Airprox Board sat and reported on a Puma that went AWOL on H10 past Kew on the River Thames, leading to a loss of separation against 27R at LHR.
Finally, as the lanes are within the TVAA (Thames Valley Avoidance Area) does entry still have to be booked as per the UKLFS? If it does, I guess that the numbers are avaible?
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"today I saw an R22 today fly between Vauxhall Bridge and the Isle of Dogs (on the river) at 700ft, when cleared "standard operating altitudes" (and it is up to 2000ft there)"
But could ELondonPax hear it?
SB
But could ELondonPax hear it?
SB
the Battersea ATCO`s are particularly adept at filing MOR`s when they feel that a regulation has been threatened.
PCD: "Hello, my name is xxx xxx, Vortex XXX, may I speak with controller who was on at 2100 please".
Battersea Controller (BC): "speaking".
PCD: "F8cked up didn't I?"
BC: "Yes".
PCD: "No excuse really, should have known better, totally unprofessional. If you need to file against me, go ahead, I have absolutely no leg to stand on etc etc"
BC: " In that case, I won't, if you had rung up all arrogant and snotty I would have filed, but at least you realise you were wrong and are happy to admit it, so we'll leave it there".
(very relieved) PCD: "You're a very nice man etc etc".
As I have no wish to ever repeat that conversation, I have been extra doubly careful with the altitudes ever since.
The only course of action regarding a specific incident involving an RAF machine from Odiham has been to refer the matter to Wing Commander Ops. This results, not surprisingly, in a deafening silence.
AlanM, yes, it is booked the same way, so numbers should be available.
Avoid imitations
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In response to ShyTorque, it may have escaped your notice that the whole question of operating helicopters over London is under close scrutiny and, more worryingly, great is the interest of the environmental lobby and politicians anxious to collect votes. It will only take a few more instances of Chinooks at 500 feet all the way down H4 and H3 to raise awareness of the noise problem. I, for one, would like to safeguard my livelihood for a little while longer.
As far as I'm concerned, our military crews are putting their lives on a daily basis in the middle east and I'm not. If they make a little more noise to train up for it then let them 'fill their boots'. Now you mention it; why shouldn't the public be reminded of it once in a while?
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It is not my intention to start a hate campaign against military pilots, merely to highlight frequent and blatant infringements of the routes and altitudes agreed for the London Zone in order to minimise the opportunities for criticism by outside agencies. Once the routes have been lost there will be absolutely no chance of resurrecting them in today`s climate.
It is in everyone`s best interests to ensure compliance with current procedures in order to safeguard the status quo. Quite clearly this is beyond the understanding of ShyTorque judging by his gung-ho rant but perhaps someone could lead him to a quiet corner and spell it out in words of one syllable.
It is in everyone`s best interests to ensure compliance with current procedures in order to safeguard the status quo. Quite clearly this is beyond the understanding of ShyTorque judging by his gung-ho rant but perhaps someone could lead him to a quiet corner and spell it out in words of one syllable.
Snarlie - I think we have already seen that there are not frequent and blatant infringements of the routes and altitudes. Aircraft are cleared to operate UP TO a maximum altitude and monitored quite closely by radar to ensure they stay on the routes without deviation.
You just want to have a moan about military helicopter noise which frankly seems rather pathetic. Suddenly you have changed Alan's 700' chinook flights into 500' and started bleating that military helicopter noise will be wholly responsible for losing all helicopter access to London.
As for your livelihood - is the phrase 'I'm all right Jack' tattooed along your forearm?
You just want to have a moan about military helicopter noise which frankly seems rather pathetic. Suddenly you have changed Alan's 700' chinook flights into 500' and started bleating that military helicopter noise will be wholly responsible for losing all helicopter access to London.
As for your livelihood - is the phrase 'I'm all right Jack' tattooed along your forearm?
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Oh well look on the bright side......
... Royal Netherlands Navy Lynx today went past Battersea on H4 showing 100ft on the radar..... and estimated to be 200ft by Battersea Tower.....
Bet the British Army get that complaint!
... Royal Netherlands Navy Lynx today went past Battersea on H4 showing 100ft on the radar..... and estimated to be 200ft by Battersea Tower.....
Bet the British Army get that complaint!