New London Heliport
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Full support
Crab, to be fair, the issue of training over London was not anti-military. The issue was noise, e.g had it been a civvy operation practicing over the area at night they would have got the same stick I am sure.
(BTW you can bring your military helis over my house any time... but then I am biased!)
Back on thread.
I agree with this direction:
Helipads on high buildings surely would be a good noise abatement option.
Or perhaps use more derelict areas. E.g the land fill tip NE of City...? (Vips oops...
)
To the original poster.. If a serious application is going to be made a strong push on the fact that helis are now quieter would help over recent attempts. Would strongly suggest researching where previous attempts failed and pre-empt those issues... 2012 is a big opportunity to set something up temporarily - with an eye to longterm once foot is in door so to speak.....
ON the fast boat issue.. There may be a market for commuters along the SE north coast for a fast boat transport service into the center from say Whitstable harbour. The train costs a fortune.. £20-£35 at peak. it could be viable. The boats that work the windfarm out of there could be good vessels... there is a tidal issue until the council move on the marina idea...a hovercraft is currently ideal. But obviously a heli commute would be even better - from the ready made pad on the harbour west quay....
Feel free to Pm me for contacts if you ever come to including such an idea in your proposal application.
Scooter Boy... what about Ashford International? Fast train runs straight in and they need to build more transport infrastructure to guarantee survival.... the residents aren't going to complain... they are all worried that the station is going to close just as they have all bought houses in the area.. a heliport would be a boon. The question is who would use it
Thinking aloud...Foreign Pax arriving from Manston/Lydd for London.. or Pax from Gatwick/Heathrow..passing through to the continent.? Or South coast cities..Newhaven/Dover/Folkestone/Calais/Ramsgate/Deal Rye/Hastings/Bexhill?
Ferry connections....? Portsmouth, Dover, Ramsgate...
just ideas for the melting pot...
(BTW you can bring your military helis over my house any time... but then I am biased!)
Back on thread.
I agree with this direction:
Open up London City and Northolt plus bolt a pad to the top of canary wharf.
Or perhaps use more derelict areas. E.g the land fill tip NE of City...? (Vips oops...
) To the original poster.. If a serious application is going to be made a strong push on the fact that helis are now quieter would help over recent attempts. Would strongly suggest researching where previous attempts failed and pre-empt those issues... 2012 is a big opportunity to set something up temporarily - with an eye to longterm once foot is in door so to speak.....
ON the fast boat issue.. There may be a market for commuters along the SE north coast for a fast boat transport service into the center from say Whitstable harbour. The train costs a fortune.. £20-£35 at peak. it could be viable. The boats that work the windfarm out of there could be good vessels... there is a tidal issue until the council move on the marina idea...a hovercraft is currently ideal. But obviously a heli commute would be even better - from the ready made pad on the harbour west quay....
Feel free to Pm me for contacts if you ever come to including such an idea in your proposal application.
Scooter Boy... what about Ashford International? Fast train runs straight in and they need to build more transport infrastructure to guarantee survival.... the residents aren't going to complain... they are all worried that the station is going to close just as they have all bought houses in the area.. a heliport would be a boon. The question is who would use it
Thinking aloud...Foreign Pax arriving from Manston/Lydd for London.. or Pax from Gatwick/Heathrow..passing through to the continent.? Or South coast cities..Newhaven/Dover/Folkestone/Calais/Ramsgate/Deal Rye/Hastings/Bexhill?Ferry connections....? Portsmouth, Dover, Ramsgate...
just ideas for the melting pot...
Last edited by K48; 6th Nov 2007 at 09:13.
Although it sounds ideal, helipads on 'high buildings' is not really a viable option in the UK.
The CAA get very, very, very nervous about 'elevated helipads'. (This is probably due to the risk of flying into the side of the building in the event of an engine failure. Although, I must add that, this is IMHO only.)
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hmmm
If the building is higher than 500ft then there's an escape route.. no different to a normal flight.. those roof tops are quite big...! Maybe introduce a specific high rise landing licence/rating with recency requirements, CAA initiate.. and London can get off the ground and - perhaps - in line with other cities.....?. what do other cities in the world do.. anyone?
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Thanks K48.
Bravo I know the elevated pad would be good but I also know that it would be to difficult in the current environment plus you will need to be checked out on landing them even if you have 7000 landings on rigs.
Well that just made my post obsolete.
Bravo I know the elevated pad would be good but I also know that it would be to difficult in the current environment plus you will need to be checked out on landing them even if you have 7000 landings on rigs.
Well that just made my post obsolete.
As Brilliant Stuff has outlined, even considerable previous experience isn't taken into account.
To move on, the idea that those arriving by helicopter might think of continuing to Central London by rail service is a non-starter.
The numbers would be far too small to justify a frequent service. If not frequent it defeats the object.
Look at the Jet Centre at London City, which has a Docklands Light Railway station next to it direct to Bank. Just what is being suggested here. Same sort of market. But how many pax arriving by business aircraft there continue by public transport each day ? I would guess none. The airport didn't even attempt to provide a footpath between Centre and station.
The numbers would be far too small to justify a frequent service. If not frequent it defeats the object.
Look at the Jet Centre at London City, which has a Docklands Light Railway station next to it direct to Bank. Just what is being suggested here. Same sort of market. But how many pax arriving by business aircraft there continue by public transport each day ? I would guess none. The airport didn't even attempt to provide a footpath between Centre and station.
Helicopter traffic does not need to affect fixed wing
Have you been near City airport. they are still building next to an airport and people are still buying.
Also at our house we can get north-south low level heli traffic, which likes to transit overhead LCY, holding awaiting a clearance across the airport. I can assure you a heli holding overhead your house at low level is indeed a nuisance.
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No doubt London desperately needs a heliport to the E of the City, but I find this proposal nothing short of whimsical.
SIM, have you any idea of the cost of converting a large military transport into a civvy registered vessel, complying with all modern safety regs? (Its certainly full of asbestos for a start) They can't even scrap the dam things up in the NE...
Or the additional expense of converting military compartments into something acceptable for civvies - no en-suite there. The plumbing alone would cost millions.
Or the cost of merely keeping such a large vessel painted, let alone controlling corrosion. Clearly Uncle Sam can't stomach it any more.
Or what Commie Ken would rip you off for mooring fees? A 10m mooring on the Solent costs £6000per year. OK, this is the Thames, but go figure.
I doubt that deck would be acceptable to the CAA - unless you parked her arse-out into the river for cross-deck ops - and that would block the river. Not much parking space, is there space to taxi past parked helos?
No, dreamland, I'm afraid. Pie in the sky.
You need simple decked over dumb barges with a walkway to shore and a dock for waterbuses. Forget hovercraft too, they make as much noise as helicopters and won't be popular.
If you want a hotel then build one where there's a need for it. Heliport pax are rushing in or rushing out. They are not going to stop at the heliport even in a luxury hotel, let alone a cheap one.
The correct answer, of course, is to open LCY. I'd guess that has more chance than converting this thing.
SIM, have you any idea of the cost of converting a large military transport into a civvy registered vessel, complying with all modern safety regs? (Its certainly full of asbestos for a start) They can't even scrap the dam things up in the NE...
Or the additional expense of converting military compartments into something acceptable for civvies - no en-suite there. The plumbing alone would cost millions.
Or the cost of merely keeping such a large vessel painted, let alone controlling corrosion. Clearly Uncle Sam can't stomach it any more.
Or what Commie Ken would rip you off for mooring fees? A 10m mooring on the Solent costs £6000per year. OK, this is the Thames, but go figure.
I doubt that deck would be acceptable to the CAA - unless you parked her arse-out into the river for cross-deck ops - and that would block the river. Not much parking space, is there space to taxi past parked helos?
No, dreamland, I'm afraid. Pie in the sky.
You need simple decked over dumb barges with a walkway to shore and a dock for waterbuses. Forget hovercraft too, they make as much noise as helicopters and won't be popular.
If you want a hotel then build one where there's a need for it. Heliport pax are rushing in or rushing out. They are not going to stop at the heliport even in a luxury hotel, let alone a cheap one.
The correct answer, of course, is to open LCY. I'd guess that has more chance than converting this thing.
WHBM - I don't remember saying we could do what we liked - the aircraft described were operating to the rules stipulated by ATC, it was just the fact they were at night that drew criticism. I have generated noise complaints delivering critically ill patients to HLSs in the middle of the night in London and frankly I couldn't care less that someone was woken up when someone else's life (not just a sleep pattern) was at risk.
If you view my frustration at lack of support as arrogance then I view your lack of understanding as ignorance.
I will be in uniform working on 11 Nov so won't make Whitehall, sorry.
If you view my frustration at lack of support as arrogance then I view your lack of understanding as ignorance.
I will be in uniform working on 11 Nov so won't make Whitehall, sorry.
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2. Do you not think London City, whose airspace is pretty maxed-out at peak times, would have a view on things ?
Helicopter traffic does not need to affect fixed wing. We are not busy compared with NY
Helicopter traffic does not need to affect fixed wing. We are not busy compared with NY
Errr brilliant response to a question about procedures....... You should take this to The Dragon's Den mate.
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As for real estate at LCY......
....planes hold now on an almost daily basis, or additional spacing on the inbounds is required (same difference really) due to lack of stand capacity.
So apart from getting past the strong NIMBY voices where would the helicopters land??
....planes hold now on an almost daily basis, or additional spacing on the inbounds is required (same difference really) due to lack of stand capacity.
So apart from getting past the strong NIMBY voices where would the helicopters land??
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Sorry Crab but I find your opinion a tad narrow. Training can be done at a civilised hour which is still in the dark. Patients can operate any time of the night. But when the Nimbys pipe up one needs respond to them and point out that their precious sleep was disrupted because the helicopter was actually saving a life or making the neighbourhood safe.
The thing with the NIMBYs is they shout loudly they don't like the noise but who answers them and therefore points out to them how big a fool they are making of themselves? They want the helicopter rather sharpish when they themselves are in need. You get my drift in a long winded sort of way?
As for not respecting the Armed Forces and the folk who are the Armed Forces, I assume you are pointing your finger at me with your post, you have no idea what my viewpoint is on that, therefore please don't assume anything until we have met face to face.
hug
The thing with the NIMBYs is they shout loudly they don't like the noise but who answers them and therefore points out to them how big a fool they are making of themselves? They want the helicopter rather sharpish when they themselves are in need. You get my drift in a long winded sort of way?
As for not respecting the Armed Forces and the folk who are the Armed Forces, I assume you are pointing your finger at me with your post, you have no idea what my viewpoint is on that, therefore please don't assume anything until we have met face to face.
hug
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BTW, last time this came up, i conducted an extensive survey of one colleague who lives on top floor overlooking the river in the rotherhithe area on their experience of H4 related noise. They replied, "the big ones". That turned out to be a reference to chinooks. These are also the only ones i've ever heard from inside a modern office block in canary wharf!
On the subject of rivers, if you could get a zippy boat to the Savoy that would be pretty cool.
On the subject of rivers, if you could get a zippy boat to the Savoy that would be pretty cool.
Brilliant stuff - my remarks re Armed Forces were aimed squarely at WHBM who assumed I was arrogant for making the point that training needs to be done, sometimes to the detriment of joe public.
We are hamstrung by many layers of rules and regulations designed to prevent us p8ssing off the general public in the wee small hours but sometimes we have to get the job done.
With so many aircraft out of the country, the ones that are left are often unserviceable so any training plan has to be flexible, even if that means working antisocial hours.
Flights through the helilanes are usually a means to an end - getting the helicopter to the training area as quickly as possible - we don't just transit there for fun.
The aircraft that were complained about may well have been on anti-terrorist ops - does anyone mind if they get woken up by a helicopter if it is protecting them.
We do try to address low flying and noise complaints promptly and to explain why the aircraft was where it was but a lot of civilian folk kick the a8se out of the MoD complaints and compensation system, pretending they were harrassed by military low flying in order to make a claim.
The NIMBY attitude towards the military was demonstrated recently in the Headley Court dispute over planning permission and only goes to show how many self-serving, selfish people there are out there who might buy a poppy once a year but don't actually want to put up with some small discomfort to help those who are fighting (and dying) overseas.
We are hamstrung by many layers of rules and regulations designed to prevent us p8ssing off the general public in the wee small hours but sometimes we have to get the job done.
With so many aircraft out of the country, the ones that are left are often unserviceable so any training plan has to be flexible, even if that means working antisocial hours.
Flights through the helilanes are usually a means to an end - getting the helicopter to the training area as quickly as possible - we don't just transit there for fun.
The aircraft that were complained about may well have been on anti-terrorist ops - does anyone mind if they get woken up by a helicopter if it is protecting them.
We do try to address low flying and noise complaints promptly and to explain why the aircraft was where it was but a lot of civilian folk kick the a8se out of the MoD complaints and compensation system, pretending they were harrassed by military low flying in order to make a claim.
The NIMBY attitude towards the military was demonstrated recently in the Headley Court dispute over planning permission and only goes to show how many self-serving, selfish people there are out there who might buy a poppy once a year but don't actually want to put up with some small discomfort to help those who are fighting (and dying) overseas.
I think the nighttime Chinook formation that WHBM was complaining about were not on any anti-terrorist operations at all (which is always the gut reaction to any complaint nowadays it seems) but were on a return from East Anglia back to Odiham and it seemed like an "interesting" Navex to route low level over Central London through the night.
We do not fly low level over London at any time - read my post re the layers of rules.
Ring Odiham if you want to complain and they will deal with it.
Ring Odiham if you want to complain and they will deal with it.
Crab - come into the real world. I live under the heli routes. Chinooks, Merlins and Pumas have such a bad noise profile that even at 1500ft they can rattle letterboxes from several miles away.
How in hell's name can these machines be used for stealth mil ops ?
I remember all too well the military rep response to the complaints when questioned by our industry. "Complain all you like - but we don't have to comply with any of your regulations."
That attitude is endemic and unnecessary.
How in hell's name can these machines be used for stealth mil ops ?
I remember all too well the military rep response to the complaints when questioned by our industry. "Complain all you like - but we don't have to comply with any of your regulations."
That attitude is endemic and unnecessary.
Jim - come into the real world yourself - that is not low flying. All helicopters comply with the standard helilanes routes and heights, including military ones. If you don't like the ATC procedures then write to the CAA or your MP.
Who said they were on stealth ops? Do you have any idea how much those boys and girls are getting shot at on a daily basis?
The attitude comes from constantly being criticised for doing a dangerous and unpleasant job during which we occasionally inconvenience (and that is all it is) members of the public.
We don't have to comply with the ANO but we do so out of respect for the impact that military training could have on the public if we did it the way some other Armed Forces in the world might.
Who said they were on stealth ops? Do you have any idea how much those boys and girls are getting shot at on a daily basis?
The attitude comes from constantly being criticised for doing a dangerous and unpleasant job during which we occasionally inconvenience (and that is all it is) members of the public.
We don't have to comply with the ANO but we do so out of respect for the impact that military training could have on the public if we did it the way some other Armed Forces in the world might.
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All helicopters comply with the standard helilanes routes and heights, including military ones. If you don't like the ATC procedures then write to the CAA or your MP.
As a former crab and 230/18 opsie, I do recognise and see the need for low level trg. Also, I believe that most of the nation do support the troops in the OOA ops.
BUT - with regard to your statement, I can hoenstly say that I am amazed when I see Chinooks at 700ft along the river between Vauxhall Bridge and the lsle of Dogs. This happens a lot, including night (and I mean past 2100hrs). Also, we try and route you the quickest way (ie as you are twins, to save you holding at London Bridge against London City traffic we can take you off the routers east of Battersea) It is very rare for crews to accept this re-route which would mean no delay.
Not saying that other things are wrong, but when you can be at 2000ft and you choose to hold at 700ft in the late evening you have to question it. (He says after sitting on the ramp of a wokka once doing exactly that!)