US Army Screws Up: UH-72A Lakota merged threads
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NEW Army Helicopters. Unsafe to fly
New Army helicopters have heat flaw
Officials say they are unsafe to fly on hot day
(associated press/file)
Email|Print| Text size – + By Aaron C. Davis
Associated Press / November 10, 2007
SACRAMENTO - The Army is spending $2.6 billion on hundreds of European-designed helicopters for homeland security and disaster relief that have a crucial flaw: They are not safe to fly on hot days, according to an internal report obtained by the Associated Press.
more stories like this
While the Army scrambles to fix the problem, potentially adding millions to the taxpayer cost, at least one high-ranking lawmaker is calling for the deal to be scrapped.
During flight tests in Southern California in mild 80-degree weather, cockpit temperatures in the UH-72A Lakota soared above 104 degrees, the point at which the Army says the communication, navigation, and flight-control systems can overheat and shut down.
No cockpit equipment failed during the nearly 23 hours of testing, according to the report, prepared for the Army in July. But it concluded that the aircraft "is not effective for use in hot environments."
The Army said that to fix the problem it will take the highly unusual step of adding air conditioners to many of the 322 helicopters ordered.
The retrofitting will cost at least $10 million and will come out of the Army's budget.
Kim Henry, a spokeswoman for US Army Aviation & Missile Command at Redstone Arsenal in Alabama, said that the Army began outfitting the helicopters with vents after the report was issued and that they have been effective at lowering temperatures.
The Army, however, decided it still needs to put air conditioning on many of the choppers, including all those configured for medical evacuations, said an Army spokesman, Major Tom McCuin..
Representative Duncan Hunter of California, the ranking Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, contends that the lightweight helicopter will still have too many weaknesses.
"In my view, we would be well advised to terminate the planned buy of 322 Lakota helicopters and purchase instead additional Blackhawk helicopters," Hunter said in a letter this week to Army Secretary Pete Geren.
But McCuin said, "It's certainly a concern to people out there in the field now because it's hot in those cockpits, but it's being fixed."
The Army has received 12 of the Lakotas from American Eurocopter Corp., a North American division of Germany's European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. Testing on the first six by an independent arm of the Pentagon revealed the problems. The rest of the choppers are scheduled for delivery over the next eight years.
The Lakota represents the Army's first major effort to adapt commercially available helicopters for military use. Air conditioning is standard in commercial versions of the aircraft, which have not had overheating problems. But the military usually avoids air conditioning in military aircraft to reduce weight and increase performance.
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
The Army plans to use the Lakota for search-and-rescue missions in disaster areas, evacuations of injured people, reconnaissance, disaster relief, and VIP tours for members of Congress and Army brass. All of its missions will be in the United States or other noncombat zones.
Blackhawks, Chinooks, and other helicopters will still be available for more demanding duties, such as fighting wildfires.
Guy Hicks, a spokesman for European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., declined to comment directly on the criticism of the aircraft. "We're proud of our partnership with the Army and the UH-72A, but we defer on anything to do with aircraft requirements and performance. It's the Army's program and they should address that," he said.
The Lakota has another problem; testers said it fails to meet the Army's requirement that it be able to evacuate two critically injured patients at the same time. The Lakota can hold two patients, but the cabin is too cramped for medics to work on more than one at a time, the testers said.
The report by Dr. Charles McQueary, the Defense Department's director of operational testing, said that overall, the Lakota performs better than the Kiowa or Huey and that pilots found it easy to fly.
But the report said inadequate ventilation, heat emitted by aircraft electronics, and sunlight streaming through the large windows caused cockpit temperatures to reach 104.9 degrees during a simulated mission in California.
The aircraft's safe operating limit is 104 degrees, according to the Army.
Officials say they are unsafe to fly on hot day
(associated press/file) Email|Print| Text size – + By Aaron C. Davis
Associated Press / November 10, 2007
SACRAMENTO - The Army is spending $2.6 billion on hundreds of European-designed helicopters for homeland security and disaster relief that have a crucial flaw: They are not safe to fly on hot days, according to an internal report obtained by the Associated Press.
more stories like this
While the Army scrambles to fix the problem, potentially adding millions to the taxpayer cost, at least one high-ranking lawmaker is calling for the deal to be scrapped.
During flight tests in Southern California in mild 80-degree weather, cockpit temperatures in the UH-72A Lakota soared above 104 degrees, the point at which the Army says the communication, navigation, and flight-control systems can overheat and shut down.
No cockpit equipment failed during the nearly 23 hours of testing, according to the report, prepared for the Army in July. But it concluded that the aircraft "is not effective for use in hot environments."
The Army said that to fix the problem it will take the highly unusual step of adding air conditioners to many of the 322 helicopters ordered.
The retrofitting will cost at least $10 million and will come out of the Army's budget.
Kim Henry, a spokeswoman for US Army Aviation & Missile Command at Redstone Arsenal in Alabama, said that the Army began outfitting the helicopters with vents after the report was issued and that they have been effective at lowering temperatures.
The Army, however, decided it still needs to put air conditioning on many of the choppers, including all those configured for medical evacuations, said an Army spokesman, Major Tom McCuin..
Representative Duncan Hunter of California, the ranking Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, contends that the lightweight helicopter will still have too many weaknesses.
"In my view, we would be well advised to terminate the planned buy of 322 Lakota helicopters and purchase instead additional Blackhawk helicopters," Hunter said in a letter this week to Army Secretary Pete Geren.
But McCuin said, "It's certainly a concern to people out there in the field now because it's hot in those cockpits, but it's being fixed."
The Army has received 12 of the Lakotas from American Eurocopter Corp., a North American division of Germany's European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. Testing on the first six by an independent arm of the Pentagon revealed the problems. The rest of the choppers are scheduled for delivery over the next eight years.
The Lakota represents the Army's first major effort to adapt commercially available helicopters for military use. Air conditioning is standard in commercial versions of the aircraft, which have not had overheating problems. But the military usually avoids air conditioning in military aircraft to reduce weight and increase performance.
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
The Army plans to use the Lakota for search-and-rescue missions in disaster areas, evacuations of injured people, reconnaissance, disaster relief, and VIP tours for members of Congress and Army brass. All of its missions will be in the United States or other noncombat zones.
Blackhawks, Chinooks, and other helicopters will still be available for more demanding duties, such as fighting wildfires.
Guy Hicks, a spokesman for European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., declined to comment directly on the criticism of the aircraft. "We're proud of our partnership with the Army and the UH-72A, but we defer on anything to do with aircraft requirements and performance. It's the Army's program and they should address that," he said.
The Lakota has another problem; testers said it fails to meet the Army's requirement that it be able to evacuate two critically injured patients at the same time. The Lakota can hold two patients, but the cabin is too cramped for medics to work on more than one at a time, the testers said.
The report by Dr. Charles McQueary, the Defense Department's director of operational testing, said that overall, the Lakota performs better than the Kiowa or Huey and that pilots found it easy to fly.
But the report said inadequate ventilation, heat emitted by aircraft electronics, and sunlight streaming through the large windows caused cockpit temperatures to reach 104.9 degrees during a simulated mission in California.
The aircraft's safe operating limit is 104 degrees, according to the Army.
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So let me get this right...
The US ARMY decide to buy the Lakota, presumably they did actually LOOK at one before they bought 322 and checked out the cabin size...?
The US ARMY decide not to bother with air con to save weight and improve performance.
So if the aircraft is "Unsafe" and "Flawed" then whose fault is that???
The US ARMY decide to buy the Lakota, presumably they did actually LOOK at one before they bought 322 and checked out the cabin size...?
The US ARMY decide not to bother with air con to save weight and improve performance.
So if the aircraft is "Unsafe" and "Flawed" then whose fault is that???
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Makes me wonder the same. I'm sure that there is plenty of blame to go around. I can't believe that this aircraft wasn't researched more carefully. Sounds like abuse of procurement procedures somewhere in this mess. 
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Was always going to be a bad choice especially fo the Medevac role.
Not the dumbest thing the Army has done with helicopters. Army Reg 95-1 prohibited smoking onboard. (I'm sure it still does) Yet just about every Blackhawk was fitted with TWO ashtrays....for the pilots pf course......at a cost of about (1993 property book values) $450.00 each.
Not the dumbest thing the Army has done with helicopters. Army Reg 95-1 prohibited smoking onboard. (I'm sure it still does) Yet just about every Blackhawk was fitted with TWO ashtrays....for the pilots pf course......at a cost of about (1993 property book values) $450.00 each.
....and poopooed the Arizona option.....
Helicopters also feature heavily in the Dubai 2007 showing with the MD 902 Helicopter making its regional exhibition debut. Boasting state-of-the-art patented “NOTAR” (No Tail Rotor) technology, which increases passenger and bystander safety, reduces pilot workload and lowers external noise levels, the MD is a sought after model for EMS services throughout the region, especially as it is well equipped to deal with the Middle East’s high temperatures.
Helicopters also feature heavily in the Dubai 2007 showing with the MD 902 Helicopter making its regional exhibition debut. Boasting state-of-the-art patented “NOTAR” (No Tail Rotor) technology, which increases passenger and bystander safety, reduces pilot workload and lowers external noise levels, the MD is a sought after model for EMS services throughout the region, especially as it is well equipped to deal with the Middle East’s high temperatures.
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a bit of reality please
It's purpose was to replace 2 existing legacy aircraft AND free up UH-60's for the overseas duty. It was not designed to compete with the 60 or do the 60's job. NONE of the aircraft (412, 139, 902) in the competition were or could. So people should stop comparing it to the 60.
The LUH is 'off the shelf' product. Therefore the avionics are the same as those in the commercial versions of the EC145 that fly everyday in all conditions. I've flown many an hour in the 145 in the Amercan southwes without A/C and with OAT's exceeding 95F and have never had an 'unsafe' failure condition result because of it. Yes the 145 cockpit is hotter than other cockpits but not significantly so. It's not that much worse than a 407 or 212.
As far as the 'unusual step of adding air conditioners' to my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, don't all Army medevac 60's have A/C for patient comfort?
What this article says to me is that the OT pilots and crew are trying to force the issue of putting an A/C in the aircraft by flagging the cockpit environment as a safety of flight issue to get the A/C installed (which it should have been to begin with). I've been on military programs before where both the engineers and crew pleaded for A some sort of ECS in the aircraft and the PM's refused to put it in because of cost, so this isn't a first. I'm sure the Army was well aware of the issue but was keeping it's fingers crossed that they wouldn't have to deal with it.
Bertie Thruster, as far as your comment for the 902 goes,
'especially as it is well equipped to deal with the Middle East’s high temperatures'
so is the 145 with A/C. The Army did not want the A/C option in ANY of the competing aircraft so you would have had a similar issue, and how many patitents can you work on in the back of a 902 at one time?
The LUH is 'off the shelf' product. Therefore the avionics are the same as those in the commercial versions of the EC145 that fly everyday in all conditions. I've flown many an hour in the 145 in the Amercan southwes without A/C and with OAT's exceeding 95F and have never had an 'unsafe' failure condition result because of it. Yes the 145 cockpit is hotter than other cockpits but not significantly so. It's not that much worse than a 407 or 212.
As far as the 'unusual step of adding air conditioners' to my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, don't all Army medevac 60's have A/C for patient comfort?
What this article says to me is that the OT pilots and crew are trying to force the issue of putting an A/C in the aircraft by flagging the cockpit environment as a safety of flight issue to get the A/C installed (which it should have been to begin with). I've been on military programs before where both the engineers and crew pleaded for A some sort of ECS in the aircraft and the PM's refused to put it in because of cost, so this isn't a first. I'm sure the Army was well aware of the issue but was keeping it's fingers crossed that they wouldn't have to deal with it.
Bertie Thruster, as far as your comment for the 902 goes,
'especially as it is well equipped to deal with the Middle East’s high temperatures'
so is the 145 with A/C. The Army did not want the A/C option in ANY of the competing aircraft so you would have had a similar issue, and how many patitents can you work on in the back of a 902 at one time?
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Like the VIP 101 for the US Prez, this POS is simply some payback to Europe for terrorist support and to provide big $$ to improve their very marginal airframes. US $$ will fix aeverthing Europeon while the US Services get to work out and/or die from these poor designs. Bottom line? The 101 and this crowd-displeaser were simply POLITICAL buys and not on technical or airworthy merit.
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Dan
Looks like a perfectly good aircraft screwed up by the UNITED STATES MILITARY, lack of forethought, lack of planning, and making decisions they later regret.. Then blame somebody else Nice one.
Lets not turn an otherwise amusing thread (well it is for us Europeans
) into another anti US101 thread, you and your esteemed colleagues from Connecticut already have a thread in which to do that to your little hearts content.
Air conditioning is standard in commercial versions of the aircraft, which have not had overheating problems. But the military usually avoids air conditioning in military aircraft to reduce weight and increase performance.
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
Nice one.Lets not turn an otherwise amusing thread (well it is for us Europeans
) into another anti US101 thread, you and your esteemed colleagues from Connecticut already have a thread in which to do that to your little hearts content.
Love the way Dan Reno always tries to redirect a thread with some technical content over political shoals.
He has no technical knowledge other than what he reads here and in some magazines.
The LUH requirements were for an "off-the-shelf" platform to be used in the CONUS and perhaps AK and HI; the RFP never intended it to be deployed outside of these theaters, however ya' know what value that carries in the Armed Forces of any Country.
Obviously Reno is oblivious to the contents and history of the LUH contract, otherwise he would know how one of the "domestic" contenders managed to botch it out by providing a substandard airframe, and what the reasons behind the choice were.
The EC-145 is quickly becoming the airframe of choice for most of the US EMS programs, it is designed to fly in typical SW temperatures, IFR with and without NVG equipment (so the interior lighting is already available for NVG operations).
The MD line of products (not just the 902) is very well known for two factors:
The looks of their corporate owner and their pathetic lack of any capability to provide substantial support.
NOTAR T/R authority notwistanding, they are nice helicopter to fly, but if you canot keep them in the air and expect the government to finance your operation just for that I believe you should NOT expect to be picked as a winner.
You tell me this is another European piece of crap without any technical support I call that prejudice.
If you lack the material to attend a forum of this sort (as you've demostrated before), I suggest you stay out of it.
He has no technical knowledge other than what he reads here and in some magazines.
The LUH requirements were for an "off-the-shelf" platform to be used in the CONUS and perhaps AK and HI; the RFP never intended it to be deployed outside of these theaters, however ya' know what value that carries in the Armed Forces of any Country.
Obviously Reno is oblivious to the contents and history of the LUH contract, otherwise he would know how one of the "domestic" contenders managed to botch it out by providing a substandard airframe, and what the reasons behind the choice were.
The EC-145 is quickly becoming the airframe of choice for most of the US EMS programs, it is designed to fly in typical SW temperatures, IFR with and without NVG equipment (so the interior lighting is already available for NVG operations).
The MD line of products (not just the 902) is very well known for two factors:
The looks of their corporate owner and their pathetic lack of any capability to provide substantial support.
NOTAR T/R authority notwistanding, they are nice helicopter to fly, but if you canot keep them in the air and expect the government to finance your operation just for that I believe you should NOT expect to be picked as a winner.
You tell me this is another European piece of crap without any technical support I call that prejudice.
If you lack the material to attend a forum of this sort (as you've demostrated before), I suggest you stay out of it.
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Bertie Thruster
Did you read this before you posted?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=300309
Did you read this before you posted?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=300309
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Xenophobe
Reno said:
Like the VIP 101 for the US Prez, this POS is simply some payback to Europe for terrorist support and to provide big $$ to improve their very marginal airframes. US $$ will fix aeverthing Europeon while the US Services get to work out and/or die from these poor designs. Bottom line? The 101 and this crowd-displeaser were simply POLITICAL buys and not on technical or airworthy merit.
Has anyone said the 101 is marginal or unsafe? Are 101s dropping out of the sky? I don't think so. There are many happy 101 customers out there. Is it built to the same standard as the 92? No, but it is also older. Taking your premis than anything (90% of the RW aircraft in the world, American and otherwise) is substandard and according to you apparently shouldn't fly.
I've flown 2 of the 4 aircraft considered for this competion, the 145 and the 412. Have you flown either? Seen maintenance been done on either? I have. The vast majority of my flight time is in Bell products (14 yrs flying USMC H-1's) and flying Bell commercial products. Given a choice between the 412 and the 145 I'll take the 145 any day. As far as improving 'their very marginal airframes' how is installing an already available (and highly recommended air conditioner) improving an airframe? How is the USA neglecting to purchase the A/C in order to save money make an airframe marginal?
I think Dan that you are a Xenophobe and don't know what you are talking about.
Like the VIP 101 for the US Prez, this POS is simply some payback to Europe for terrorist support and to provide big $$ to improve their very marginal airframes. US $$ will fix aeverthing Europeon while the US Services get to work out and/or die from these poor designs. Bottom line? The 101 and this crowd-displeaser were simply POLITICAL buys and not on technical or airworthy merit.
Has anyone said the 101 is marginal or unsafe? Are 101s dropping out of the sky? I don't think so. There are many happy 101 customers out there. Is it built to the same standard as the 92? No, but it is also older. Taking your premis than anything (90% of the RW aircraft in the world, American and otherwise) is substandard and according to you apparently shouldn't fly.
I've flown 2 of the 4 aircraft considered for this competion, the 145 and the 412. Have you flown either? Seen maintenance been done on either? I have. The vast majority of my flight time is in Bell products (14 yrs flying USMC H-1's) and flying Bell commercial products. Given a choice between the 412 and the 145 I'll take the 145 any day. As far as improving 'their very marginal airframes' how is installing an already available (and highly recommended air conditioner) improving an airframe? How is the USA neglecting to purchase the A/C in order to save money make an airframe marginal?
I think Dan that you are a Xenophobe and don't know what you are talking about.
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Like the VIP 101 for the US Prez, this POS is simply some payback to Europe for terrorist support and to provide big $$ to improve their very marginal airframes. US $$ will fix aeverthing Europeon while the US Services get to work out and/or die from these poor designs. Bottom line? The 101 and this crowd-displeaser were simply POLITICAL buys and not on technical or airworthy merit.
New Army helicopters have heat flaw
And what is this flaw?
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
So in fact there is nothing wrong with the aircraft, they simply decided for some strange reason not to buy the optional extras required to operate in hot climates, and then proceeded to operate in hot climates.
Were there actually something wrong with the aircraft, in that they didn't meet the specification laid down by the Army, then you can bet they'd be expecting Eurocopter to foot the bill. But they specified it wrong, which is their fault, leaving them with the bill.
The only difference between this case and if it had been a US supplier is that this is far to good an opportunity to stir up some xenophobia to miss.
How this relates to The War on Terror™, American Soldiers Dying For Their Country™ or the AW101 is beyond me. But then don't let facts get in the way of talking utter s***.
I did not get aircon on my last car either, it was an option but it was extra $$ so thought I could do without it.
If we get a hot summer could I ask General motors to fit it for free?
And as for the medivac ( not enough room) one presumes at least one of the committee had a look\ fly \examined the machine before spending all that money, if not why not and who will be hung out to dry for it, this is the same as the 101 if you keep asking for changes the delivery will slip & the preformance will vary from expected.
If is not what you require don't buy, or have a clear understanding who foots the bill for changes, & how they will affect overall preformance.
As for MD I am surprised it was mentioned, things are getting better, but they are not in the equation at present.
If we get a hot summer could I ask General motors to fit it for free?
And as for the medivac ( not enough room) one presumes at least one of the committee had a look\ fly \examined the machine before spending all that money, if not why not and who will be hung out to dry for it, this is the same as the 101 if you keep asking for changes the delivery will slip & the preformance will vary from expected.
If is not what you require don't buy, or have a clear understanding who foots the bill for changes, & how they will affect overall preformance.
As for MD I am surprised it was mentioned, things are getting better, but they are not in the equation at present.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Some of us always thought the 900 series the best aircraft for the contract, but no, there were those who continued with the MD hate posts such as Alloa Akbars above " Would that be the same MD whose name is synonymous with Company stability, spares provision and customer support?? ". All that was needed to solve those problems immediately and everyone knew it, was the award of the contract to the most suitable a/c. (The problems have been sorted eventually regardless of contract anyway I believe.)
The problem with this business is just because a female is head of a company, ranks close and the old boys get their way!
And Mr 'Shell Management' the reason you haven't a similar link that you threw at Bertie for the 145, is simply due to the fact it is a newcomer, ie untested or proven until it's too late.....like now!
By the way, adding an air con not only makes it cooler for the pilots, those hardy US aviators, but adds a fair bit of weight...in excess of 100lbs... a really good idea for a hot climate that one!!! How about air deflectors to scoop the air in!!
http://www.aircommcorp.com/htdocs/PD...-200D_Rev0.pdf
http://www.aircommcorp.com/htdocs/PD..._Rev_2_ICA.pdf
The problem with this business is just because a female is head of a company, ranks close and the old boys get their way!
And Mr 'Shell Management' the reason you haven't a similar link that you threw at Bertie for the 145, is simply due to the fact it is a newcomer, ie untested or proven until it's too late.....like now!
By the way, adding an air con not only makes it cooler for the pilots, those hardy US aviators, but adds a fair bit of weight...in excess of 100lbs... a really good idea for a hot climate that one!!! How about air deflectors to scoop the air in!!
http://www.aircommcorp.com/htdocs/PD...-200D_Rev0.pdf
http://www.aircommcorp.com/htdocs/PD..._Rev_2_ICA.pdf
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This entire issue can be summed up by one succinct quotation:
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, [an U.S. Army spokesmen] said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
This is a classic example of one of the services not having the foresight to accurately predict requirements. This is what happens when a bunch of guys with a single airframe mindset (the '60, in this case) try to apply their past experience as the sole basis of comparison for future mission sets. This same sort of reasoning (by a bunch of USMC '46 guys) is the root cause of many of the V-22's specific limitations.
Both the USA and USMC suffer from the integral problem that since aviation is not their core competency, their respective service models of fielding new aircraft can be somewhat limited in scope. This is not to say that their aviators and aircraft aren't highly capable, just that they are sometimes hobbled by a lack of perspective by their aquisitions folks who are hard pressed to think "outside the box" when publishing RFPs and later on during DT/OT. I've flown with both services and seen this first hand.
Bottom line here...despite my allegiance to the U.S. and the implicit need to "buy American," anyone that claims Eurocopter or their product is lacking is simply trying to cover up the fact that U.S. Army didn't do their homework when envisioning the flight envelope in which the LUH (regardless of who finally won the contract) would be forced to operate.
Just my humble opinion....
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, [an U.S. Army spokesmen] said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
This is a classic example of one of the services not having the foresight to accurately predict requirements. This is what happens when a bunch of guys with a single airframe mindset (the '60, in this case) try to apply their past experience as the sole basis of comparison for future mission sets. This same sort of reasoning (by a bunch of USMC '46 guys) is the root cause of many of the V-22's specific limitations.
Both the USA and USMC suffer from the integral problem that since aviation is not their core competency, their respective service models of fielding new aircraft can be somewhat limited in scope. This is not to say that their aviators and aircraft aren't highly capable, just that they are sometimes hobbled by a lack of perspective by their aquisitions folks who are hard pressed to think "outside the box" when publishing RFPs and later on during DT/OT. I've flown with both services and seen this first hand.
Bottom line here...despite my allegiance to the U.S. and the implicit need to "buy American," anyone that claims Eurocopter or their product is lacking is simply trying to cover up the fact that U.S. Army didn't do their homework when envisioning the flight envelope in which the LUH (regardless of who finally won the contract) would be forced to operate.
Just my humble opinion....
Chief Bottle Washer
We have had three threads on this subject: they are now merged into one 
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There is another way to look at this whole thing. We all assume that the lack of AC was an oops on the part of the aquisition folks. If we were to go back and do it again and ask for AC in the aircraft that would add just over $31M if you use the $98K per aircraft price given in the article and 322 aircraft total. Now we would have spent a bunch of money air conditioning helicopters in North Dakota and Alaska. If we left the AC out of the mix up front and then showed a need for it in the aircraft in certain locations then we can equip them accordingly. Even if they decide that half of them need it that is still a $15M savings. I know they may have gotten a discount for buying in bulk but I doubt they would get a 50% off difference for buying 322 systems instead of 166. Hind sight is always 20/20 and I don't know of anyone who has operated this particular aircraft in that location enough to prove that it absolutely needed the AC. Sure one could argue that they could have spec'd out AC on only half the ships right up front but I can tell you that the fielding schedule for this aircraft changes frequently so it surely wouldn't work out as smooth in practice as it does in theory.
That being said, I wouldn't say the program is perfect but I wouldn't say the AC is nearly the issue that it is being made out to be.
Max
That being said, I wouldn't say the program is perfect but I wouldn't say the AC is nearly the issue that it is being made out to be.
Max
Last edited by maxtork; 15th Nov 2007 at 02:21. Reason: edited for poor math skills!