US Army Screws Up: UH-72A Lakota merged threads
 

Interesting News Report.

ARMY

The UH-72A Lakota helicopter.

Pentagon weapons testers say the Army's new European-designed and built
light utility helicopter has a couple of serious shortcomings that must be
remedied before it can fulfill many assigned missions.

A new report by the director of operational test and evaluation says the
Eurocopter UH-72A Lakota helicopter "is not operationally suitable,"
especially in hot environments, because its cockpit electronics systems
could fail because the air conditioning is inadequate.

The Army plans to buy 322 of the helicopters, a slightly modified version of
the commercial Eurocopter EC-145, which it selected last year for use by
stateside Army and National Guard units for light transport and
medical-evacuation missions.

The initial aircrafts produced under the $2 billion contract have been built
in France. American Eurocopter, the Grand Prairie-based arm of Eurocopter
and parent company EADS, will build the bulk of the new helicopters at a
plant in Columbus, Miss.

The report, based on testing that the Army performed with six of the new
helicopters in the desert conditions of Fort Irwin, Calif., found that there
was much to like about the UH-72A.

It says that the aircraft "is effective in the performance of light utility
missions" and that it appears to be reliable and easily maintained. It also
says that it has a low cost to operate and that it will be a significant
improvement over the aging UH-1H Hueys and OH-58 Kiowas now in operation.

But the aircraft cannot haul the desired loads at high-altitude and hot-day
conditions, and it is too small or is not organized to allow a medical
attendant to care for two critically injured patients on stretchers. It also
said crew members, patients and passengers would become very uncomfortable
because of the tightly sealed cabin's poor air conditioning.

The Army wants to use the helicopters to not only replace older aircraft but
also to allow it to move its workhorse Sikorsky UH-60 Blackhawks to combat
units.

A Eurocopter official said that the UH-72 meets the Army's specific
mandatory requirements and that ways to address key issues identified in the
report are being discussed.

"We're working with the Army ... to address the capability of the air
conditioning in this aircraft," said Randy Hutcherson, vice president of
rotorcraft for EADS North America and manager of the light utility
helicopter program.

The Army never specified a requirement that the helicopter be suited to
caring for two critically injured patients at the same time, Hutcherson
said, something not even required by civil medical-evacuation aircraft.

Army officials did not return a call seeking comment. They have said that
the UH-72 provided the most capability for the price.

The Army chose it in a competition that also included entries from Bell
Helicopter, MD Helicopters and Italy's AgustaWestland. The Bell and Agusta
offerings were larger, more powerful and costlier.

Bob Cox, 817-390-7723
[email protected]

I have heard from a friend that flies the 145 at altitude that the VNE on hot days around here can be below 100 kias!! Made me laugh that you could go faster in 206 at 8000 and 25 degress C.!!!!

If it's anything like the 135 T1 CPDS in Kuwait, then even with the aircon running you wouldn't be able to operate any significant electrical role equipment.

We did ask if air-con air could be piped across the Pelican rack to supplement the non-existent cooling air from the avionics side blowers - back came a very firm "nein/non" from the company.

So yes, if the above experience is anything to go by then expect the AP to trip about 10 mins into every sortie above 40 deg C.

>
I have heard from a friend that flies the 145 at altitude that the VNE on hot days around here can be below 100 kias!! Made me laugh that you could go faster in 206 at 8000 and 25 degress C.!!!!
<

better look up your 206 vne in the limitations section...

I heard the 100 kt VNE was for flight with doors propped open. They should probably buy the air conditioner (and maybe even the medevac kit) for medevac ops in the SW US desert.

For 206B3, ISA, doors closed, below 3000 lbs comes to 105 kt Vne @ 10.000 msl :ok:

8000 and 25 degress C = ISA :confused:

For your information:

No, 25°c @ 8000´ is not equal to ISA!

However the Vne for JetRanger at those conditions is 103 Kts iaw BHT-206B3-FM-1 pg 1-18 rev.2

this is the Army's first real foray into using civil certification, rather than a MILSPEC.

i bet the A/C option wasn't listed as a requirement on the contract negotiated withe Eurocopter. I suspect there well could be other items that crop up. sadly, the Army views A/C as a 'creature comfort,' which is a four-letter word to the brass ("nothing's too good for our soldiers, and that's exactly what they'll get, nothing.") :bored:

I bet Eurocopter knew that the ventilation was so poor that crews complained of the excessive heat before they made the Army proposal. Furthermore, I bet that Eurocopter knew that avionics were failing due to the high heat generated in the nose of the aircraft as the result of poor ventilation, as reported by the media. They could have certainly proposed an a/c on the basic aircraft as part of their initial proposal but elected to leave this out to further increase their margins.:= Of course this will greatly affect the payload, operating limits and further reduce its dismal hot and high capabilities. Eurocopter probably figured its not a realy problem unless the customer complains, if they do then we will charge them for mission creep. What a bunch of bunk, just like their hot and high capability.

I also don't agree with your statement regarding a/c and the Army. The AH64 has an outstanding a/c system that cools not only the pilots but the avionics bays also.

By the way, the Army purchased over 100 TH-67's (slightly modified 206bIII's)as a commercial product and currently maintain them as commercial aircraft.

Dumkopf
 

:ok:Hard to believe that the Army was dumb enough not to buy the A/C for the TH-67s either... nothing like flying around in Alabama in the summer with gloves and a helmet on.

Of course, that is trivial compared to the "micro-climate-cooling" vest system that the Army has been slapping in -60s and -47s to make them bearable with all the bodyarmor and other junk that we had to wear in the 125 degree heat. Nothing like not having an inch of foresight...

I wonder why I left the Army...

Chuck: you may be right what Eurocopter knew (or not), but that's not the point. Army procurment says you must meet a minimum number of requirements, which are specified in the contract. if you propose additional items beyond those included in the Request For Proposal, you do so at your own risk because the extra items: (1) cost more; (2) weigh more; (3) are more difficult to maintain. IMO, Eurocopter was right not to include the A/C until an after it won the bid...it could have meant NOT winning the bid at all.

My beef is with the Army...I don't think they thought out their requirements very well at all, nor do I think they understand the nuances of the FARs. If you read their RFP last year, the aircraft could be "part 27 or part 29, or Cat-A or not...yada yada" If the Army wants to use civil cert, then fine...they need to be prepared for what they sign-up for. The avionics met the Part29 standard...which were NOT designed for operating at NTC in July.

Yes...the Apache had A/C...I used to fly them. But that was different: the Apache was designed to go into combat (which ostensibly, the UH72 is not...I'm not sure I believe that for a nanosecond); and (2) the avionics in the Apache also run the weapons systems. Some of the avionics aren't in the cockpit per se, but must still be cooled, as the weapons must work. (And it was still hot with the A/C turned full ON!) :)

Yes, the Army bought the TH67 through civil cert. But again, I believe there's a caveat. First, it is used ONLY at Rucker for training, and won't be deployed to active units (as is the UH72). And second, it is essentially a OH58.

You're right the Army should have realized this much sooner and I wasn't letting the Army off, but Eruocopter certainly ain't the hero's here either. We'll low ball it on the front end and then charge them on the back end. I believe the 145 was certified to Part 27... However, if what you say is true then it isn't fit for Las Vegas, Phoenix, EL Paso or the GOM. I've seen cockpit temps in the GOM in summer approach 125 degrees "f" when closed up and heat soaked in the sun.

BTW, isn't Ft. Rucker "Regular Army" and the UH72A destined to go to Guard Units to free up UH60's for the Regular Army?

Mmmmmm interesting ...

I guess the folks at Eurocopter have changed the A/C system on the EC145 form that used on the Bk117 series .... 'cos that was capable of sending ice crystals out of the ducts ... you could freeze a side of beef in the back if you wanted too!

So whats the story .... have they gone away from the Garrett system over to a R134a evaporative system or what???

:uhoh:

On the EC135 one of the systems they proposed had a electrical driven compressor ( I guess they did not want power drain of taking it off the gear box ) , I cannot think it would be nearly as efficient as a belt driven compressor . I am not sure what they have used on the EC145 . I think Keith made one of the BK117 after market versions.

Actually, the reverse should be true.An electric motor driven refrigeration compressor would be the epitome of efficiency.A single constant speed, optimised for the anticipated heat removal load.Now, parasitic losses from the additional load to the A/C electrical system could make this approach difficult ot implement. :(

LUH-72 Issues
 

The issue is not that EC sold the Army a bad bird. The issue is that bean counters at higher levels within DA considered the A/C a luxury item and deleted it. The A/C does not keep up out there, because there is not one. There is a ventilation system, but not an A/C like the rest of us are used to. Not to mention 2 other key issues. The avionics are not certified to work above 95F OAT and the doors cannot be open in flight except when performing hoist ops. The TH-67 initially came with A/C. The Army then paid to have them removed before acceptance. Due to airframe issues caused by the doors being removed multiple times per day, they then paid to have A/C reinstalled on the initial fleet and all future deliveries. :D

The AH-1 and the AH-64 systems were sold as an Environmental Control Unit (ECU). These 2 aircraft have no window that can be opened in flight. The OH-58D started out with an ECU, but some nitwit changed the wording to reflect an A/C. Yet, it is loaded with avionics that constantly overheated during Desert Storm. := Early OH-58Ds still have a mount for the A/C on the power accessory gearbox. It was direct drive, and not piggybacked off of the TR driveshaft like the TH-67.

There are a lot of missions in the hot months due to heat injuries of course. Too bad the bean counters valued a few dollars over people's lives. :ugh:

Fortunately, many of these aircraft are going to VIP units. It will not take but a few VIP flights before we get an A/C. I just wonder how much more it will cost for it to be installed as an add-on. :confused:

On another note, as readers posted, this is not the 1st venture into FAA certified aircraft by the Army. There are currently about 200 N numbered (FAA registered) TH-67s at mother Rucker. And, they have not been maintained to FAA standards; but that is a whole other issue. :mad:

Good thing they are having the avionics issues with the new helicopters... because its a known fact, if the crew is complaining, with no other arguments, nothing would be done. I've flown at NTC and hotter places in UH-60s with all windows shut (injured patients onboard), wearing armor and survival equipment, and our complaints haven't even gotten us the cooling vests... drink water and drive on, they say. Hell we still have to wear winter weight boots because they're the only ones authorized for flying.

And the Army wonders why retention is so low?

-Mike

Army encounters same problem as the Navy
 

Ah to be a bug on the wall during certain meetings....as quoted from a US Army Officer in re the OTS purchase of EC-145's for the US Army.....


:ouch::ouch:


Reckon some Navy Officers consulted with their Army counterparts on how to do aircraft purchasing?:E

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071109/...Ofp9OFiGtH2ocA


http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003664.html


Perhaps with the installation of air con on the new aircraft will lower the cockpit temperature to the level no damage will occur. I suppose all these civilian aircraft operating in areas where the cockpit temp exceeds 104 degrees F are death traps or something?

Old news, since debunked, with AC on its way. It's just Duncan 'Buy America' Hunter having another rant.

Still, it's a good job the Army didn't opt for Rogerson Kratos displays... :E

I/C