Financial aid for CPL(H)
Hovering AND talking
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The Career Development Loan is the only thing but I think the banks are trying to phase them out.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educatio...oans/index.htm
Cheers
Whirls
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educatio...oans/index.htm
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Mar 2002
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FI wages
How sad that we have to read 'Manfromuncle's' post.
At least two years hard work & study and mostly a sizeable loan, only to be told that the low AFI wages won't pay off the borrowing.
I visited a Hemel Hempstead's law office a small while back. The highly efficient young lady (twenty two/threeish) solemly told me her personal charge out rate was £220 an hour. (senior partners 50% higher!)
I enquired how long she had been in the profession and was proudly told "three years law school study and already a year in this practice."
So it seems you don't put your daughter on the stage or sponsor your offspring for an AFI/FI course! Yes ... sad!
Dennis K
At least two years hard work & study and mostly a sizeable loan, only to be told that the low AFI wages won't pay off the borrowing.
I visited a Hemel Hempstead's law office a small while back. The highly efficient young lady (twenty two/threeish) solemly told me her personal charge out rate was £220 an hour. (senior partners 50% higher!)
I enquired how long she had been in the profession and was proudly told "three years law school study and already a year in this practice."
So it seems you don't put your daughter on the stage or sponsor your offspring for an AFI/FI course! Yes ... sad!
Dennis K
Hovering AND talking
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But the young lady's employers would have sponsored her through much of that training. Plus her salary would be considerably less (about 1/6th) of the charge rate quoted. Still, it's a nice salary but the exams are harder!
Manfromuncles post may be sad but also true.
If someone got to FI in minimum hours through the modular (i.e. a total of 280 hours at around £250 per hour), then it's a minimum of £70k not including exams and incidentals.
That's a mortgage on a house!
Cheers
Whirls
Manfromuncles post may be sad but also true.
If someone got to FI in minimum hours through the modular (i.e. a total of 280 hours at around £250 per hour), then it's a minimum of £70k not including exams and incidentals.
That's a mortgage on a house!
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Sad but true.
The amount of people i've had come through the door wanting to become a pilot and then being amazed at the financial outlay and then the incredible difficulty in finding that first job, probably as an FI, and learning how badly paid it is.
We sometimes forget that for every successful pilot in the country, those able to earn a decent living, there are plenty who can't.
Best advise is to join the forces and get them to pay for it while you get paid to learn.
Good luck for all the beginners
The amount of people i've had come through the door wanting to become a pilot and then being amazed at the financial outlay and then the incredible difficulty in finding that first job, probably as an FI, and learning how badly paid it is.
We sometimes forget that for every successful pilot in the country, those able to earn a decent living, there are plenty who can't.
Best advise is to join the forces and get them to pay for it while you get paid to learn.
Good luck for all the beginners
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I think it’s a real shame that ppruner’s are putting their own industry down and being so negative to potential pilots.
Having run a training school for the past 15 years, and still going strong I might add, I’ve always been under the impression that the instructor’s job was always a stepping-stone to further their career. I am proud to say that I have had some of the best pilots in the industry work out their time with me. They have gone on to be SAR, HEMS, Line and Police pilots. I agree that freelance pilots find it tough in the winter and don’t get paid holidays but it’s their choice and most of them have alternative jobs, so it suits them.
I was told once that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, it made me mad at the time because I was the one getting the peanuts, but on reflection I think it’s a fair comment. So to encourage wannabe pilots my newly qualified Flying Instructors (Restricted) salary is £25K, FI unrestricted £35K and Line/FI’s pilots £45k plus. I don’t think that’s too bad for a stepping-stone. Plus it’s a fantastic job, let’s not forget it, that’s why we are all here isn’t it?
Having run a training school for the past 15 years, and still going strong I might add, I’ve always been under the impression that the instructor’s job was always a stepping-stone to further their career. I am proud to say that I have had some of the best pilots in the industry work out their time with me. They have gone on to be SAR, HEMS, Line and Police pilots. I agree that freelance pilots find it tough in the winter and don’t get paid holidays but it’s their choice and most of them have alternative jobs, so it suits them.
I was told once that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, it made me mad at the time because I was the one getting the peanuts, but on reflection I think it’s a fair comment. So to encourage wannabe pilots my newly qualified Flying Instructors (Restricted) salary is £25K, FI unrestricted £35K and Line/FI’s pilots £45k plus. I don’t think that’s too bad for a stepping-stone. Plus it’s a fantastic job, let’s not forget it, that’s why we are all here isn’t it?
Hovering AND talking
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There is a difference between putting the industry down and being realistic. I am one of these potential instructor/pilots and I am glad that the harsh economics were pointed out to me at an early stage; sometimes brusquely, sometimes sympathetically. I then feel armed sufficiently to make an informed decision based on my own circumstances.
I would still maintain that a £70k loan on a £25k salary is hard work to pay off especially if one already has a mortgage and/or family! Therefore, one needs to plan in advance.
Cheers
Whirls
I would still maintain that a £70k loan on a £25k salary is hard work to pay off especially if one already has a mortgage and/or family! Therefore, one needs to plan in advance.
Cheers
Whirls
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Lets contrast all this against the firefighters, who were asking for 30k, and I believe they had their training paid for them. No, second thought, lets not.
It's not about demeaning the Pilot profession, it's about the reality of GB today.
If anyone thinks paying back a £70,000 loan on a £25k salary in the Britain of the moment is do-able, I would ask them to take themselves for a head check. It's just not, unless you want a quality of life thats sub standard to being in Prison. I'm not joking.
For a start, it's NOT £25k - you have to pay tax on that, oh, and you also have to have a roof over your head, eat, clothe yourself, pay transport costs and (heaven forbid) maybe even some form of social life (yes, O'Grumpy ones, if you don't want end up in the nuthouse, social interaction IS a necessity for a human being) so in the end, your £25K ends up being a lot more like £12k. Or easily worse, depending on where you live in England.
Throw a family, mortgage, and a child into that mix and you can absolutely forget it. Even if you try it, you are one car repair bill/burst water main/loose roof slate away from being bust. Big time. The bank will not be your friend at this time. They dont like lending more money to people with no assets, a vinly wallet with some paper in it and the clothes that look like you have a store card at Oxfam. Which, incidentally, is an accurate assesment of your situation.
Anyone who tells you otherwise has a vested interest and is trying to sell you something. Believe it. Or not. It's your pain.
If your doing it, your either single with a well paying flexible hour job, or have money saved or a family backing to call on. Daddy's either sold some land and given you some money, or you have sold your house (note, dont try this approach AFTER the great UK housing crash thats coming) and ploughed that money into making wokka wokka noises. You sure aint doing it any other way. No chance.
Even at the other side, there are a lot more Pilots then their are positions. Want to be a £25k (and thats rare) F.I. all your life? Thought not.
I'll voice a thought on this one. I've yet to meet a F.I. I'm envious of for anything other than stick skills. The lack of social life, 12 year old car and the way they look at your Greggs sandwich are a little off putting.
It's a racket well and true this aviation lark.
It's not about demeaning the Pilot profession, it's about the reality of GB today.
If anyone thinks paying back a £70,000 loan on a £25k salary in the Britain of the moment is do-able, I would ask them to take themselves for a head check. It's just not, unless you want a quality of life thats sub standard to being in Prison. I'm not joking.
For a start, it's NOT £25k - you have to pay tax on that, oh, and you also have to have a roof over your head, eat, clothe yourself, pay transport costs and (heaven forbid) maybe even some form of social life (yes, O'Grumpy ones, if you don't want end up in the nuthouse, social interaction IS a necessity for a human being) so in the end, your £25K ends up being a lot more like £12k. Or easily worse, depending on where you live in England.
Throw a family, mortgage, and a child into that mix and you can absolutely forget it. Even if you try it, you are one car repair bill/burst water main/loose roof slate away from being bust. Big time. The bank will not be your friend at this time. They dont like lending more money to people with no assets, a vinly wallet with some paper in it and the clothes that look like you have a store card at Oxfam. Which, incidentally, is an accurate assesment of your situation.
Anyone who tells you otherwise has a vested interest and is trying to sell you something. Believe it. Or not. It's your pain.
If your doing it, your either single with a well paying flexible hour job, or have money saved or a family backing to call on. Daddy's either sold some land and given you some money, or you have sold your house (note, dont try this approach AFTER the great UK housing crash thats coming) and ploughed that money into making wokka wokka noises. You sure aint doing it any other way. No chance.
Even at the other side, there are a lot more Pilots then their are positions. Want to be a £25k (and thats rare) F.I. all your life? Thought not.
I'll voice a thought on this one. I've yet to meet a F.I. I'm envious of for anything other than stick skills. The lack of social life, 12 year old car and the way they look at your Greggs sandwich are a little off putting.
It's a racket well and true this aviation lark.
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Your welcome Whirls. All the above is gained from my own experiences of sitting in the crew room planning nav or some such for my PPl, while listening to some school owner (and it happened with my 'A' as well as 'H' to be fair) tell me how if I just sell my Granny into that parisian Brothel to raise the funds, a fantastic job, wealth and appeal to the opposite (or same, depending on the operator) sex is but a few (ten's) of thousands away, and it awaits me thus, as there has never been a better time to be doing it etc etc etc.
At the same time however, you cast an eye to the corner of the room and his F.I. is sitting there slavering over my sandwich and wondering if nicking a litre of Aeroshell will be noticed, and if it will knock the bottom end right out of the museum piece he's nursing during his commute each day.
Methinks the two dont add up. Me also thinks there are some award winning salesmen in aviation.
At the same time however, you cast an eye to the corner of the room and his F.I. is sitting there slavering over my sandwich and wondering if nicking a litre of Aeroshell will be noticed, and if it will knock the bottom end right out of the museum piece he's nursing during his commute each day.
Methinks the two dont add up. Me also thinks there are some award winning salesmen in aviation.
Whirly
Initially i thought your 70K estimate (280*250) way off, but I've just put together a spredsheet which assuming
250 / hr training rate
30 per ppl exam
180 / hr self fly hire
1950 for CPL school
62 per cpl exam
150 ppl test fee
680 cpl test fee
180 for test hire
250 per hour for fi course
1 * FI Test at 300
2 hrs for FI Test Hire
Costs 64000 + VAT
It is available here ->http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/public docs/heli cost to fi.xls
So you are actually not far off (you are cheaper)
Chucka has some valid points particularly that anyone who tells you all is rosy probably has a vested interest (my words not his). I wouldn't have let anyone stop me from doing what I wanted to do, nor would most of the pilots I know. But thats not a justification for letting someone rip you off.
Most people I know in this industry WANT to be in it , which means they are sometimes taken advantage of, even when they get to a professional level.
It is unfortunate that people who have been in the industry for a while put it down, but they do so for a reason. Generallly I think because of the way SOME of them have been treated, by some of the more unscruplous operators.
However
Would I swap my job for anything? No I Would Not
Do I owe some people for getting me where I am ? Yes I Do
Can you put a figure on that debt ? No I Don't believe I can
Has everyone I have worked for been a decent and honest chap ? No they haven't (But they'll telll you they are).
Do I deserve to have helicopter companies treat me like they would if i was buying double glazing (no offence to double galzing salesmen), No I don't.
So my personal opinion is that some people will tell you it can be done cheap, generally it can't. If you get a good deal for paying up front , good on you, but get a directors guarantee that if the company goes down. They'll pay you back personally , then I think you are PROBABLY fairly safe (unless they are willing to go Bankrupt themselves).
As to sponsorship the only things that seem available are the Dennis Kenyon Jr Scholarship (Up to PPL). And the GAPAN FI(R) recently discussed here. Some NS companies have recently sponsored IR(H)s but that usually comes about the after individual has spent 45k+ to get a CPL(H).
Don't get me wrong I try and supoprt everyone I meet to get into the industry, but doing so with rose tinted glasses is a mistake.
Do it with a realistic view on things and GOOD LUCK to you.
V.
Initially i thought your 70K estimate (280*250) way off, but I've just put together a spredsheet which assuming
250 / hr training rate
30 per ppl exam
180 / hr self fly hire
1950 for CPL school
62 per cpl exam
150 ppl test fee
680 cpl test fee
180 for test hire
250 per hour for fi course
1 * FI Test at 300
2 hrs for FI Test Hire
Costs 64000 + VAT
It is available here ->http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/public docs/heli cost to fi.xls
So you are actually not far off (you are cheaper)
Chucka has some valid points particularly that anyone who tells you all is rosy probably has a vested interest (my words not his). I wouldn't have let anyone stop me from doing what I wanted to do, nor would most of the pilots I know. But thats not a justification for letting someone rip you off.
Most people I know in this industry WANT to be in it , which means they are sometimes taken advantage of, even when they get to a professional level.
It is unfortunate that people who have been in the industry for a while put it down, but they do so for a reason. Generallly I think because of the way SOME of them have been treated, by some of the more unscruplous operators.
However
Would I swap my job for anything? No I Would Not
Do I owe some people for getting me where I am ? Yes I Do
Can you put a figure on that debt ? No I Don't believe I can
Has everyone I have worked for been a decent and honest chap ? No they haven't (But they'll telll you they are).
Do I deserve to have helicopter companies treat me like they would if i was buying double glazing (no offence to double galzing salesmen), No I don't.
So my personal opinion is that some people will tell you it can be done cheap, generally it can't. If you get a good deal for paying up front , good on you, but get a directors guarantee that if the company goes down. They'll pay you back personally , then I think you are PROBABLY fairly safe (unless they are willing to go Bankrupt themselves).
As to sponsorship the only things that seem available are the Dennis Kenyon Jr Scholarship (Up to PPL). And the GAPAN FI(R) recently discussed here. Some NS companies have recently sponsored IR(H)s but that usually comes about the after individual has spent 45k+ to get a CPL(H).
Don't get me wrong I try and supoprt everyone I meet to get into the industry, but doing so with rose tinted glasses is a mistake.
Do it with a realistic view on things and GOOD LUCK to you.
V.
Last edited by VeeAny; 19th Apr 2007 at 04:25.
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Your right in all that VeeAny, and you only have to look at a thread on this very same page (the Police/HEMS Job) to see that when it comes to pay/getting hired, just what your up against as a self sponsored civvie trained person with no pension being paid to you in your 30's to supplement the salary offered by these operators. One read of that thread will do wonders for putting things into a realistic light for many with rose tinted Ray bans and a head full of dreams.
Listen to those here who speak the truth. ie Chukkablade, VeeAny, Whirlygig.
I worked for a small company (since gone bust, surprise, surprise) as a part time instructor. Actually two companies the same when I think about it. The owners both told me not to tell potential PPL/CPL/FI takers who walked through the door, exactly what the costs were, and they always quoted a figure of 'oh, around 45-50k' to get to CPL/FI. I found this a bit sad as I spent £110k on my training to date.(including IR)
I would never have made enough to live on from flying alone as an Instructor (I don't feel I was that good an instructor anyway) and was lucky enough to have other things to do. Plus a wife who backed me 100%.
Yes we do this job mainly for the love of it (I think?
) but the financial rewards are not as great as we wish they could be.
I just know that for the first time in years, i'm getting up in a morning looking forward to going to work (is it work?) and the money isn't even a factor. ps, Just started working NS!
There are opportunities for a fresh CPL holder to be sponsored by the North Sea companies through IR/type ratings etc but not as many as some would have you believe, ie the training providers.
My only advice to those wishing to pursue a career in Helicopter flying, do your homework, visit as many places as you can and speak to as many people as you can. Get a total overall feel for the industry at the time. Whatever you do, don't just pitch up at the first school you find in 'Flying' magazine and expect to hear the absolute truth.
In the last 6 months, one NS operator took on some 300hr guys in their early twenties, with no other experience and paid for IR's. Right place right time? Sure, but this industry can definitely keep you guessing and bankrupt you at the same time.
I worked for a small company (since gone bust, surprise, surprise) as a part time instructor. Actually two companies the same when I think about it. The owners both told me not to tell potential PPL/CPL/FI takers who walked through the door, exactly what the costs were, and they always quoted a figure of 'oh, around 45-50k' to get to CPL/FI. I found this a bit sad as I spent £110k on my training to date.(including IR)
I would never have made enough to live on from flying alone as an Instructor (I don't feel I was that good an instructor anyway) and was lucky enough to have other things to do. Plus a wife who backed me 100%.
Yes we do this job mainly for the love of it (I think?
) but the financial rewards are not as great as we wish they could be. I just know that for the first time in years, i'm getting up in a morning looking forward to going to work (is it work?) and the money isn't even a factor. ps, Just started working NS!
There are opportunities for a fresh CPL holder to be sponsored by the North Sea companies through IR/type ratings etc but not as many as some would have you believe, ie the training providers.
My only advice to those wishing to pursue a career in Helicopter flying, do your homework, visit as many places as you can and speak to as many people as you can. Get a total overall feel for the industry at the time. Whatever you do, don't just pitch up at the first school you find in 'Flying' magazine and expect to hear the absolute truth.
In the last 6 months, one NS operator took on some 300hr guys in their early twenties, with no other experience and paid for IR's. Right place right time? Sure, but this industry can definitely keep you guessing and bankrupt you at the same time.
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Interesting comment about instructing "being a stepping stone". Not strictly true in the UK. In the US, yes, instructing is a stepping stone (no-one does it for more than 18 months), once you get 1,000 hours there are LOADS of entry level turbine jobs (Alaska, Gulf, Vegas).
Over here in the UK it's not like that. You can be stuck being an FI well into 2,000+ hours if the operator doesn't give you much turbine work.
The sad fact of the UK is that you need turbine time and/or an JAA IR to earn a decent salary and get treated well. Five years ago all you needed was around 1,000 hours to get a turbine job, these days the goalposts have changed. And there are TONS of ex-mil people getting out at the moment, with big fat logbooks full of twin-time, and IRs paid for out of the property boom.
Over here in the UK it's not like that. You can be stuck being an FI well into 2,000+ hours if the operator doesn't give you much turbine work.
The sad fact of the UK is that you need turbine time and/or an JAA IR to earn a decent salary and get treated well. Five years ago all you needed was around 1,000 hours to get a turbine job, these days the goalposts have changed. And there are TONS of ex-mil people getting out at the moment, with big fat logbooks full of twin-time, and IRs paid for out of the property boom.
Hovering AND talking
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And there are TONS of ex-mil people getting out at the moment, with big fat logbooks full of twin-time, and IRs paid for out of the property boom.
IR really is only for those who want to work the North Sea and maybe the odd corporate job. Other roles (eg police/HEMS/pipe line/filming) do not require an IR. And, as noted on TC's police/HEMS thread, not everyone is motivated by money alone.
Cheers
Whirls
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These guys all tell it like it is. They aren't putting down the industry; they're simply being honest.
I realised recently I wouldn't change my instructing job for anything. But do you you want to know when and how I realised it?
I had a great summer in 2006. It was my first one instructing fulltime. I'd been doing it part time for three years, but with my second string (research and writing) not doing well, and flying schools promising me the earth, why not do more? I turned down writing work...more fool me! I worked all the hours I was asked. Social life? Forget it.
Come winter, and suddenly flying work dried up. Any gratitude for working all those weekends and evenings in the summer? Of course not - "sorry, don't know where all the students are, and we've sent all the helicopters off for maintenance".
So I took on more writing, but still couldn't make ends meet...and I'm single and the mortgage is paid off, so I don't need a lot really. Well, I have a lot of skills hidden away (been living a long time) and a lot of contacts, so I bit the bullet and got a "proper" job - marketing for a local company, 1 -2 days a week, whenever I like, to fit around flying. Perfect, isn't it? Yes......and totally, mind-numbingly boring! It was so long since I'd had a "normal" office job that I'd forgotten. The first week I was desperate for my lunch hour, just to get out and breathe some fresh air and see the sky. But it got easier, I got used it, it helped pay the bills, and I used someone else's coffee and heating all winter.
But it reminded me just what "normal" working life is like. So I wouldn't change my instructing job - when I have one - for anything. But that's not the point - it shouldn't have to be like that!!!!!
I realised recently I wouldn't change my instructing job for anything. But do you you want to know when and how I realised it?
I had a great summer in 2006. It was my first one instructing fulltime. I'd been doing it part time for three years, but with my second string (research and writing) not doing well, and flying schools promising me the earth, why not do more? I turned down writing work...more fool me! I worked all the hours I was asked. Social life? Forget it.
Come winter, and suddenly flying work dried up. Any gratitude for working all those weekends and evenings in the summer? Of course not - "sorry, don't know where all the students are, and we've sent all the helicopters off for maintenance".
So I took on more writing, but still couldn't make ends meet...and I'm single and the mortgage is paid off, so I don't need a lot really. Well, I have a lot of skills hidden away (been living a long time) and a lot of contacts, so I bit the bullet and got a "proper" job - marketing for a local company, 1 -2 days a week, whenever I like, to fit around flying. Perfect, isn't it? Yes......and totally, mind-numbingly boring! It was so long since I'd had a "normal" office job that I'd forgotten. The first week I was desperate for my lunch hour, just to get out and breathe some fresh air and see the sky. But it got easier, I got used it, it helped pay the bills, and I used someone else's coffee and heating all winter.
But it reminded me just what "normal" working life is like. So I wouldn't change my instructing job - when I have one - for anything. But that's not the point - it shouldn't have to be like that!!!!!
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It's a sad state of affairs when someone has to spend £40-£50k on their career, then to put up with not enough money to even live on and to put up with crappy operators exploiting them. It would be fine if once you reach a certain number of hours you can easily get a flying job that pays the national average salary, but that's just not the case in the UK.