Northern North Sea ATC: Q & A thread
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Northern North Sea ATC: Q & A thread
Following on from the thread "What does ATC do that irks you?", this is a thread for the North Sea helicopter crews operating out of the Ice Station.
What do we do (if anything!) that annoy you, confuse you etc?
Are there things that we do that you want to know the reason why?
Ask away and hopefully you will get an answer...
On the flip side of this, what are the things that you do that annoy us offshore ATCOs? If we can find out why you do whatever it is that annoys us, then it will hopefully lead to a greater mutual understanding of what we are both trying to achieve.
Over to you all.....
Odi
What do we do (if anything!) that annoy you, confuse you etc?
Are there things that we do that you want to know the reason why?
Ask away and hopefully you will get an answer...
On the flip side of this, what are the things that you do that annoy us offshore ATCOs? If we can find out why you do whatever it is that annoys us, then it will hopefully lead to a greater mutual understanding of what we are both trying to achieve.
Over to you all.....
Odi
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Minor one but...
The order of priority is aviate, navigate, communicate.
If you have something that is going to affect my future ability to aviate, like someone coming the other way at my level then I need to know about it urgently. If you just want to identify me then (for the time being at least) you come into the communication bracket.
When I lift off a platform in the ESB I want to first make sure that we are flying correctly (aviate), This takes the first 500 ft. I then want to do after take off checks (navigate). This takes the second 500 ft. Once at cruising level, I will want to do top of climb checks (navigate again). This takes about 1 minute. If, while I am aviating or navigating you require me to squawk ident, then read back change of service you are promoting the communication above higher priority tasks.
Some controllers already wait for us to level, do essential tasks and offer estimates. From our side this is ideal. (& if for some reason we havn't communicated within 2 minutes of levelling, then I accept that a nudge is appropriate). It would be great if all could do the same unless, of course there is a possible confliction. But then you would normally have told us about it before we lifted.
OA
The order of priority is aviate, navigate, communicate.
If you have something that is going to affect my future ability to aviate, like someone coming the other way at my level then I need to know about it urgently. If you just want to identify me then (for the time being at least) you come into the communication bracket.
When I lift off a platform in the ESB I want to first make sure that we are flying correctly (aviate), This takes the first 500 ft. I then want to do after take off checks (navigate). This takes the second 500 ft. Once at cruising level, I will want to do top of climb checks (navigate again). This takes about 1 minute. If, while I am aviating or navigating you require me to squawk ident, then read back change of service you are promoting the communication above higher priority tasks.
Some controllers already wait for us to level, do essential tasks and offer estimates. From our side this is ideal. (& if for some reason we havn't communicated within 2 minutes of levelling, then I accept that a nudge is appropriate). It would be great if all could do the same unless, of course there is a possible confliction. But then you would normally have told us about it before we lifted.
OA
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Probably going to get shot down in flames with this one! 
Working out of Aberdeen, I have had to return to the ramp for a top up of fuel at least three times during the last six months. This is because of the congestion around 0700, 0730 etc and because the client has taken all the load offered (even after allowing for extra holding fuel at C3). Why does everyone and his dog seem to want to depart at 0700? I know what the management will say (because they have said it already!);- "the client wants 0700, therefore he will get 0700". The client is always right! Yeah!!
Question for ATC (and airport management):- would allocating take off slot times during the busy period between 0645 and 0830 make any difference? Let's face it, even with 1 minute between departures, there can be only five nominal 0700 take offs (0658, 0659 0700, 0701 and 0702); and thats for everyone on the airfield, rotary and fixed wing! And doesn't take into account arrivals!
Any thoughts?
bondu
PS I think you guys in ATC Aberdeen do a great job: Aberdeen is probably just as busy as Gatwick at times!
Working out of Aberdeen, I have had to return to the ramp for a top up of fuel at least three times during the last six months. This is because of the congestion around 0700, 0730 etc and because the client has taken all the load offered (even after allowing for extra holding fuel at C3). Why does everyone and his dog seem to want to depart at 0700? I know what the management will say (because they have said it already!);- "the client wants 0700, therefore he will get 0700". The client is always right! Yeah!!
Question for ATC (and airport management):- would allocating take off slot times during the busy period between 0645 and 0830 make any difference? Let's face it, even with 1 minute between departures, there can be only five nominal 0700 take offs (0658, 0659 0700, 0701 and 0702); and thats for everyone on the airfield, rotary and fixed wing! And doesn't take into account arrivals!
Any thoughts?
bondu
PS I think you guys in ATC Aberdeen do a great job: Aberdeen is probably just as busy as Gatwick at times!
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Slot times are great until you lose yours!
Just one little greenie snag and you're stuffed. No, I'll just wait in line for
now thanks.
And yes, Aberdeen ATC is just great - thank you.
Wiz
Just one little greenie snag
and you're stuffed. No, I'll just wait in line for now thanks.
And yes, Aberdeen ATC is just great - thank you.
Wiz
Bondu makes a good point, though I think the answer is not slot times but simply to insist on different departure times for the client. At one point when I was in Aberdeen we (BHL) had 27 AS332s flying and frequently flew 65 flights a day. One day I counted 15 0700 departures on the schedule, and they were just ours!
The crazy thing was (is) that you could be 10 minutes late departing, and had to fill in a delayed departure form to apease the client, and yet you could arrive at the destination earlier than on a previous day where you'd left 5 minutes early, due to wind variations. Airline passengers aren't bothered by their departure time: it's the arrival time that matters!
OvertAuk makes some interesting observations about N. Sea checklists, but that another topic.........
The crazy thing was (is) that you could be 10 minutes late departing, and had to fill in a delayed departure form to apease the client, and yet you could arrive at the destination earlier than on a previous day where you'd left 5 minutes early, due to wind variations. Airline passengers aren't bothered by their departure time: it's the arrival time that matters!
OvertAuk makes some interesting observations about N. Sea checklists, but that another topic.........
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212man
The problem we face today, is that most of the oil companies have penalty clauses written into the contracts with the helicopter operators. Flights 'departing' more than five minutes late can mean a hefty penalty payment. I stress 'departure' as it doesn't seem to matter to the customer if the delay is caused by congestion or weather (low viz procedures) and the inevitable ATC delay (not ATCs fault!!). Even if we taxy with pax five to ten minutes before scheduled take off time, if we are delayed, it can initiate the penalty. It doesn't seem to matter that the arrival offshore can vary markedly due to winds, as you rightly state. It just appears to my cynical mind to be another way the oil companies screw the heli operators, who are either too weak or too frightened to say anything! Of course, if the operators can state that the changing of departure times is down to congestion and that a new plan based on ATC advice can ease or even clear the congestion problem, then the oil companies may relent! Who knows, until someone tries!
Wiz
I know what your saying, but if the slots are designated as 'company' slots, not specific to a particular flight, then what's the problem? For example:
0650 2x slots for Eastern
0655 2x slots for CHC
0700 2x slots for Bristow
0705 1x slot for Eastern
0710 2x slots for Bond
and so on. You would only need to do it for an hour or so until the first mad rush is complete.
Perhaps it is time we all joined the 21st century! Or God forbid, applied some common sense! Oh, I forgot, we aren't allowed to think like that any more, are we!
bondu
The problem we face today, is that most of the oil companies have penalty clauses written into the contracts with the helicopter operators. Flights 'departing' more than five minutes late can mean a hefty penalty payment. I stress 'departure' as it doesn't seem to matter to the customer if the delay is caused by congestion or weather (low viz procedures) and the inevitable ATC delay (not ATCs fault!!). Even if we taxy with pax five to ten minutes before scheduled take off time, if we are delayed, it can initiate the penalty. It doesn't seem to matter that the arrival offshore can vary markedly due to winds, as you rightly state. It just appears to my cynical mind to be another way the oil companies screw the heli operators, who are either too weak or too frightened to say anything! Of course, if the operators can state that the changing of departure times is down to congestion and that a new plan based on ATC advice can ease or even clear the congestion problem, then the oil companies may relent! Who knows, until someone tries!
Wiz
I know what your saying, but if the slots are designated as 'company' slots, not specific to a particular flight, then what's the problem? For example:
0650 2x slots for Eastern
0655 2x slots for CHC
0700 2x slots for Bristow
0705 1x slot for Eastern
0710 2x slots for Bond
and so on. You would only need to do it for an hour or so until the first mad rush is complete.
Perhaps it is time we all joined the 21st century! Or God forbid, applied some common sense! Oh, I forgot, we aren't allowed to think like that any more, are we!
bondu
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Bondu,
Quite some time ago we had one of the busiest days and we had to impose flow control into Offshore land because of staff problems.It was one heli departure every 5mins.The way we did it was start approved for a taxi time,first come first served.It worked really well with little delay at the hold,and still keeping up the movements with other inbounds and outbounds.The bad news was it put more strain on a very busy GMC.
Now the Oil compaines would have kittens with ATC slapping on 30 mins delay,but then isn't that whats happening now if you need a refuel.Also it really needs a Clearance Delivery to work properly.
Unfortunately it won't happen at Aberdeen,because there is not the will by ATC management to start upsetting the customer,in any way.Well the system did not work in the 80's and surprise surprise it still doesn't work.
It would be nice if ATC management were aware the we were as busy as KK.Might get the £18K extra they get,with only half the ratings.
Quite some time ago we had one of the busiest days and we had to impose flow control into Offshore land because of staff problems.It was one heli departure every 5mins.The way we did it was start approved for a taxi time,first come first served.It worked really well with little delay at the hold,and still keeping up the movements with other inbounds and outbounds.The bad news was it put more strain on a very busy GMC.
Now the Oil compaines would have kittens with ATC slapping on 30 mins delay,but then isn't that whats happening now if you need a refuel.Also it really needs a Clearance Delivery to work properly.
Unfortunately it won't happen at Aberdeen,because there is not the will by ATC management to start upsetting the customer,in any way.Well the system did not work in the 80's and surprise surprise it still doesn't work.
It would be nice if ATC management were aware the we were as busy as KK.Might get the £18K extra they get,with only half the ratings.
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Hand over to Ground during landing
I echo the comments of the other posts, I think the ATC at ABZ is really good. I have certainly seen the difference when I have been elsewhere and been treat like a fixed wing.
My slight moan is that we are usually handed over to Ground just before we touchdown. This is the one time I don't want to be looking in the cockpit to change frequency. Some of the Tower controllers wait until we have landed which is much better. It would be great if this was always the case, but I appreciate that they do have other aircraft to think about as well.
My slight moan is that we are usually handed over to Ground just before we touchdown. This is the one time I don't want to be looking in the cockpit to change frequency. Some of the Tower controllers wait until we have landed which is much better. It would be great if this was always the case, but I appreciate that they do have other aircraft to think about as well.
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Bondu,
re: slots - as TAD has already said, it's been tried before for Helicopter departures and it didn't work. Too many failed to make the time which knocks on everybody else and means missed runway opportunities. You also have to remember that many of the fixed wing deps are already on CFMU issued slots which we have to comply with and vary from day to day (and even hour to hour) so issuing your "company slots" is really a non-starter. The answer has to lie with the operators - having so many departures scheduled at the same time is just plain silly. (Flame proof suit donned). I am surprised that it (from what has been written) that it is actual take-off times that matter! Fixed - wing schedules work to "off-blocks" and that is how the CAA compile on-time statistics. That also explains why you often see a bmi Airbus sitting at D2 first thing - it will have a CFMU slot "delay" but pushes back (off-blocks) on time then sits and waits thereby recording an on-time departure (again silly really!)
Maybe the operators should go to the clients and re-negotiate to off-blocks as the criteria.....
It isn't going to get any better in the near future - more fixed - wing schedules from the summer timetables (end March).
Re: Changing to Ground
As one who usually waits til wheels down - I agree with the comments HOWEVER, some Controllers take the view that there are 2 of you on the flight deck - it shouldn't be a problem changing whilst in the air. If you wish it to change then speak up here!
DD
PS: on behalf of my colleagues - thanks for the positive compliments!
re: slots - as TAD has already said, it's been tried before for Helicopter departures and it didn't work. Too many failed to make the time which knocks on everybody else and means missed runway opportunities. You also have to remember that many of the fixed wing deps are already on CFMU issued slots which we have to comply with and vary from day to day (and even hour to hour) so issuing your "company slots" is really a non-starter. The answer has to lie with the operators - having so many departures scheduled at the same time is just plain silly. (Flame proof suit donned). I am surprised that it (from what has been written) that it is actual take-off times that matter! Fixed - wing schedules work to "off-blocks" and that is how the CAA compile on-time statistics. That also explains why you often see a bmi Airbus sitting at D2 first thing - it will have a CFMU slot "delay" but pushes back (off-blocks) on time then sits and waits thereby recording an on-time departure (again silly really!)
Maybe the operators should go to the clients and re-negotiate to off-blocks as the criteria.....
It isn't going to get any better in the near future - more fixed - wing schedules from the summer timetables (end March).
Re: Changing to Ground
As one who usually waits til wheels down - I agree with the comments HOWEVER, some Controllers take the view that there are 2 of you on the flight deck - it shouldn't be a problem changing whilst in the air. If you wish it to change then speak up here!
DD
PS: on behalf of my colleagues - thanks for the positive compliments!
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Data Dad
You don't need a flame proof suit! I think we all agree that scheduling by the operators/clients is just plain stupid! I wasn't aware of a previous attempt at issuing slot times for helicopters: when was it tried out? As for the 'off blocks' times, I don't think you will have much disagreement from the pilots, if only the operator managements' could find a backbone from somewhere!
bondu
You don't need a flame proof suit! I think we all agree that scheduling by the operators/clients is just plain stupid! I wasn't aware of a previous attempt at issuing slot times for helicopters: when was it tried out? As for the 'off blocks' times, I don't think you will have much disagreement from the pilots, if only the operator managements' could find a backbone from somewhere!
bondu
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Perhaps in ATC we should be looking at how we work rather than trying to get the helis to schedule.There are increasingly as many arrivals as departures at 07.30,so perhaps we should be delaying them at bit.For example 10 mile gaps to allow the backlog of departures.At the moment Tower can get pressured by Radar always wanting visuals,or using spacing where there is no gap.
Also cutting down on co-ordination is a start,and having laid down spacing that Radar must achieve,especially in low-vis,would help the overall flow.
Helis wanting circuit training is a major headache.Unlike in the 80's,Longside has gone,so a lot of training is being requested at peak times.Controllers will try to fit this in,but it usually means delaying scheduled.Also trying to conduct circuits in bad wx,when the Tower has to separate traffic is becoming impossible.I had to hold a circuiter for 48 mins at Brimmond in SVFR,because I had nowhere else to go.
If Tower is given a chance then it's amazing how quickly you can move departures,especially if there is a mix of fixed wings.I think we should be more structured and work to help each other.Sometimes it's seems like the opposite.
Also cutting down on co-ordination is a start,and having laid down spacing that Radar must achieve,especially in low-vis,would help the overall flow.
Helis wanting circuit training is a major headache.Unlike in the 80's,Longside has gone,so a lot of training is being requested at peak times.Controllers will try to fit this in,but it usually means delaying scheduled.Also trying to conduct circuits in bad wx,when the Tower has to separate traffic is becoming impossible.I had to hold a circuiter for 48 mins at Brimmond in SVFR,because I had nowhere else to go.
If Tower is given a chance then it's amazing how quickly you can move departures,especially if there is a mix of fixed wings.I think we should be more structured and work to help each other.Sometimes it's seems like the opposite.
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Data Dad and Throw a Dyce
Sounds to me that we all agree that there are some problems and that the solutions are quite clear. Instead of pursuing this issue here, is this now the time to have a formal sit down together and figure out a way forward? I know there are meetings between the various parties at different levels, but these tend to cover other subjects. Any thoughts?
bondu
Sounds to me that we all agree that there are some problems and that the solutions are quite clear. Instead of pursuing this issue here, is this now the time to have a formal sit down together and figure out a way forward? I know there are meetings between the various parties at different levels, but these tend to cover other subjects. Any thoughts?
bondu
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Well getting the chief pilots of the helicopter companies to speak to Nats management and BAA as well is a good start.
I have mentioned some of these topics before to the higher levels of ATC and recieved very mixed reactions.From positive to downright hostile.So I have just crawled back under my stone.I think it needs a combination of spacing heli departures a little more,combined with ATC working more like the Heathrow,Gatwicks etc and you'll solve most of the problem.
The oil/heli companies have had 30 years of free for all.In the 80's the system(or lack of it) creaked,and it's creaking again.There is a max hourly movement rate,and we are trying to move 45mins worth into 10 mins.It just will not work.
I have mentioned some of these topics before to the higher levels of ATC and recieved very mixed reactions.From positive to downright hostile.So I have just crawled back under my stone.I think it needs a combination of spacing heli departures a little more,combined with ATC working more like the Heathrow,Gatwicks etc and you'll solve most of the problem.
The oil/heli companies have had 30 years of free for all.In the 80's the system(or lack of it) creaked,and it's creaking again.There is a max hourly movement rate,and we are trying to move 45mins worth into 10 mins.It just will not work.
I echo the comments of the other posts, I think the ATC at ABZ is really good. I have certainly seen the difference when I have been elsewhere and been treat like a fixed wing.
My slight moan is that we are usually handed over to Ground just before we touchdown. This is the one time I don't want to be looking in the cockpit to change frequency. Some of the Tower controllers wait until we have landed which is much better. It would be great if this was always the case, but I appreciate that they do have other aircraft to think about as well.
My slight moan is that we are usually handed over to Ground just before we touchdown. This is the one time I don't want to be looking in the cockpit to change frequency. Some of the Tower controllers wait until we have landed which is much better. It would be great if this was always the case, but I appreciate that they do have other aircraft to think about as well.
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I hammer it into my trainees (not literally nowadays!) not to talk to helis until after they touchdown; telling them how busy you chaps are in this phase of flight
Feel free to transfer before touching down. We can then either check in with ground straight away or if someone feels they are too busy they can come to a stop and do it in there own time.
Remember many of the more modern helis have the ground freq pre programmed as the next freq so it is just a flick of the switch.
How about "When ready, call ground.......".
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Without knowing what a kn**ber is Chris ( it must be an army word) I suspect I am not, but once again YOU demonstrate your skills by the high quality of your argument.
Just as well you were not applying for a job with CHC now. The shrinks would have had a field day with you.
Just as well you were not applying for a job with CHC now. The shrinks would have had a field day with you.
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I think ATC at ABZ are great and often say how lucky we are not to have slot times, it would be a nightmare! Just take a bit more fuel in the mornings and I think oil companies use taxi time and not take off time as an on time departure so no idea what all that fuss is about.
But only really posting to let the ATC guys know which controller is called Miss Whiplash by double bogey and many others, she's the one who always used to say "correct" in a certain way!?
But only really posting to let the ATC guys know which controller is called Miss Whiplash by double bogey and many others, she's the one who always used to say "correct" in a certain way!?