Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)

[uncle ian]

I took myself off to foreign climes for my birthday to avoid surprise parties and inappropriate jokes!

Now I'm back thanks to all of you who wished me well in my absence.

Now the magic date is passed we can commence legal action. I applied for an exemption to the age 60 rule today. I'll keep you posted. Does anyone else fancy asking for an exemption? If we do get the rules changed and you have suffered an decrease in income in the meantime you will have a much stronger case for compensation from the CAA if an exemption has been refused.

Ian Evans

[DennisK]

AD

"Is it too late for Uncle Dennis here at 74 ???? -!!!!!"

Good luck Ian and just to re-affirm my standard donation to the fund when it is wanted.

DRK

[wassatboing?]

Does anyone else fancy asking for an exemption?

Yes Uncle Ian, I will give it a go. Any advice on wording?
Best of luck
Ian

[uncle ian]

wording the exemption request

This is a new one so it's not like asking for, for example, a rule 5 exemption.

I've said something like "Until the issue of age discrimination has been determined in Court my position is ambiguous. This will have a severely detrimental effect on my life, career and income. Accordingly I request an exemption to the prohibition to conduct single pilot public transport operations contained in Part A Section 1 Sub-Section 1 (2) (3) (e) of Sschedule 8 of the ANO 2005 in accordance with your discretion under Section 153 of the ANO."

But you may wish to consult a lawyer first.

Good luck

[thekite]

From Thekite

Just to give closure on my contribution re Australian Class 1 medical; dated 31 March 07:

CASA have confirmed that I can instruct, but only to pilots who are already endorsed on type.

So why the hell would they need me?

I also hold a British ATPL, so can relate to you guys, who are rudely grounded at 60. I'm 66, so I suppose that I am lucky to be off the ground at all!

But off the ground I still am, test flying as required after maintenance, helicopters that I have assembled as a LAME.

Plus I can instruct in my ultralights, aerobat my syndicate's YAK 52, and go sailplaning in the club's Blanik. Plus, I have a kit Mosquito helicopter due in 2-3 months (read 6), to build and fly, so perhaps life is not so bad....

thekite (Did I mention riding the Harley to the airstrip?)

[cyclicmick]

Uncle Ian,
Have just received a letter from my MP, post his visit to my home earlier this month and, at his request, a detailed follow up letter from me, and he confirms that he has written to Douglas Alexander (Sec of State for Transport) and Robert Sturdy MEP, asking them both to review the matter.
Regards
MH
PS: Uncle Ian please check your PM

[Anotherflapoperator]

Dear Uncle Ian and the rest of you old codgers who still enjoy the best job there is, the very best of luck in your case. I've signed up to the petition, and if funds are needed, I'm in too. All that and I'm only 38 as well!

Happy Birthday Uncle!

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Petition signed. Good luck

[RVR800]

Signed

RV

[Bittern]

Dear Brother Ian (I'm 59 so thought 'Uncle' was inappropriate)

Well done and I hope that the CAA concur. You have my pledge for £100.

At my ACM last week my AME suggested that, if necessary, some extra tests one of which involves a treadmill could be done for 60+. If successful, it would give the chance of a cardio-vascular episode at .6% which is rather less than average for the next lower age group.

I wish to continue flying HEMS if at all possible and plan to continue instructing anyway. As has been said many times already, we should be allowed to work providing that we are fit & competent beyond a limit that in this day & age is somewhat arbitrary.

Good Luck

[Oracle]

70 Limit on the horizon.

I am told by an infomed authority that discussions have already taken place within ICAO/FAA/JAA/CAA to increase the mandatory retirement age for PT/CAT pilots to 70 years of age.

Plank pilots over 40 on twin-pilot aircraft no longer have to do (or shortly will not have to) a bi-annual medical, but may revert to once a year probing!

One hopes that this will induce a sensible response from the CAA for we venerable helicopter chappies, enabling even the most knackered, yet stil pulsating veteran to operate a commercial helicopter single-pilot or as PIC until the age of 65 and then until 70 with another Captain to ensure his pace-maker battery is charged!

[SmokinHole]

Isn't that missing the point?

Surely a forced retirement at any age is discrimination?

[Oracle]

There is only One - Highlander!

Sorry, I was talking about those of us who are not still peeing about with broadswords at the age of 70, - or even thinking about such things! Personally at least by 75 I want to be on my own wee yacht d
somewhere off Turkey enticing teenage eastern european crewmembers on board.............

[Whirlygig]

....by 75 I want to be on my own wee yacht d
somewhere off Turkey enticing teenage eastern european crewmembers on board....

That reminds me of someone. Now. Who could it be!

Cheers

Whirls

[uncle ian]

I do hope you don't mean me, Whirls!

[uncle ian]

Fighting the CAA

An old friend of mine asked me today how he could help my fight with the CAA over age limits........"why don't you look for financial help through PPrune" he said! (He's a regular reader/subscriber).

So I thought I'd better start a new thread for those who never bothered to read "Age Discrimination......" , and, frankly, who could blame you?

My lawyers have just filed papers with the Industrial Tribunal regarding the CAA's policy of not reviewing the regulations preventing single pilot public transport operations for pilots aged 60 to 65. We argue that such a policy amounts to Age Discrimination, unlawful since the end of last year.

The Industrial tribunal is the least expensive route to justice in this instance and I have rejected a judicial review in the High Court as the costs are not just high but unpredictable. In common with most helicopter pilots I am rolling in money and don't really need to work (ask anyone who knows me) but even I can't commit an unlimited amount. Even the Industrial Tribunal can be expensive if you're not on legal aid (to which I am not, apparently, entitled being such a rich b*****d).

Thus far some 30 odd people have pledged to give me £100 (some more) towards my costs on the grounds that many will benefit when I win. I anticipate the costs will rise to between £8k and£10k if there is no appeal. Of course I'm prepared to meet much of these costs but I would appreciate a bit more help. The money will be handled by Whirlygig of this site who has accountancy qualifications so you can be sure I'll not run off to the Bahamas with it as some unkind soul who shall remain nameless, mbj, proposed.

I won't ask for it until I know I need it but it would be very helpful if you could pledge that sum now. If you don't subscrbe to PPrune you can do the same on [email protected] .

I'm told this case will not be heard for 3 to 6 months; that'll be a bit fast for the CAA to deal with but for me it's months of good flying time wasted. You can pledge now safe in the knowledge I won't come calling until you've had time to save up!

Looking forward to some helpful responses.

Ian Evans

[Brilliant Stuff]

Though I still have 30 years to go I am more than happy to pledge £100.

Thank you for fighting our collective corner.

[Bertie Thruster]

Hi Ian, Thanks for getting started on this.

I was hoping that BALPA were going to take a lead on this....but the vibes from BALPA HQ are not good.

Last straw there for me was finding that the email stream, on age 60+ pilots, passing around BALPA HQ is labelled "OAP's"

Please accept my £100 pledge to you.

Regards, BT

[smile 412]

Age 65 rule FAA

U.S. Airline Pilots Now Support Age-65 Retirement (Update3)

By John Hughes
May 24 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. airline pilots' largest union now supports lifting their retirement age to 65, ending almost three decades of opposition and boosting prospects for quicker government action to change the current quit-at-60 rule.
Today's shift by the 60,000-member Air Line Pilots Association ``absolutely'' will speed passage of legislation in Congress to implement an age-65 standard, said Paul Emens, a Southwest Airlines Co. pilot seeking the age change.
``This should bring walls tumbling down,'' Emens, chairman of Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination, said in an interview. ``ALPA has been the primary opposition to change. Now basically all pilots are pushing in the same direction.''
The biggest victors in the vote by the union's executive board are Southwest and JetBlue Airways Corp., which pushed for a higher retirement age more aggressively than rivals. The two airlines don't have defined-benefit pension plans, which get more expensive to maintain as employees stay on the job longer.
The Federal Aviation Administration, which set the age-60 rule in 1959 for safety reasons, has concluded that there is no medical justification for that standard. FAA chief Marion Blakey said Jan. 30 the agency will raise the retirement age to 65 in a rule-making process that may take two years or more.
Pilots getting closer to age 60 want Congress to make the change, saying it can act faster. The Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee approved an age-65 rule on May 16 as part of a four-year, $65 billion proposal to finance the FAA.
`Time Has Come'
``This is an idea whose time has come,'' said Bill Voss, chief executive officer of the non-profit Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Virginia. ``People are living longer. Our ability to monitor medical conditions is improving.''
Until today, ALPA's stance favored younger pilots, who viewed the age-60 retirement rule as helping their chances for promotion. Many older pilots sought to fly longer, including some who lost retirement benefits in airline bankruptcies.
The Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization, which recommends global air-safety regulations, adopted a standard that pilots should be allowed to fly to age 65 as long as the other pilot in the cockpit is younger than 60.
That standard took effect Nov. 23, and older pilots on foreign airlines have been able to fly in U.S. skies since then, if allowed by their carriers and governments. The FAA and Senate proposal mimic the international standard.
Pilots' union members as recently as November reaffirmed their opposition to a higher retirement age. All four voting union members on an FAA study panel supported age 60. The panel couldn't reach an agreement on whether to change the age.
Help, Not Fight
Since then, Blakey announced the change and the Senate committee voted. In a statement today, the union said it decided to help shape the way the retirement change is implemented rather than continue to fight the move.
``Pilots will be fully engaged,'' union President John Prater said in the statement. ``Any legislative or regulatory change needs to address ALPA's priorities.''
The union said its executive board voted 80 percent in favor of making the age change. The Washington-based union had fought a higher retirement age for 27 years.
About 200 pilots retire every month that the age-60 rule remains in place, Emens said.
To contact the reporter on this story: John Hughes in Washington [email protected] .
Last Updated: May 24, 2007 16:55 EDT

[JimL]

Flungdung,

I think you have to see this in context; the ICAO Standard has been retirement of pilots at 60 for CAT; most States enshrined this Standard in their regulations.

For a number of good reasons, there was a move - led by Europe - to have this raised. One mitigation was that only one of two crew members could be over 60 - i.e. it applied to "as or with".

The discussion on this thread is slightly different as it proposes removing the limitation for single-pilot CAT; to my knowledge this has not received wide debate - frankly because it would only apply to a limited population.

You should also see this debate in the context of the difference in the accident record between the Airlines and General Aviation; this can be one order or, depending where you take the measurement, two orders of magnitude.

I support the proposal but recognise that, in the general run of aviation, we are a very small community without much clout.

Jim