Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)
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I've had no chance since friday to thank all of you who have continued to support the cause with your physical presence in London, your money and your good wishes. With deep irony I was asked to cover a hot news story for one of the TV channels over the weekend........I could hardly say no, could I?
With time to reflect on Fiday's proceedings I am cautiously optomistic. At the very least the fact that no verdict can be reached quickly shows that we have a good case that needed to be brought.
Anyway, until we hear the verdict, thanks very much. I'll publish the result here first but I expect many of you will hear or see it in the news. If I should loose the press will have a field day!
Ian
With time to reflect on Fiday's proceedings I am cautiously optomistic. At the very least the fact that no verdict can be reached quickly shows that we have a good case that needed to be brought.
Anyway, until we hear the verdict, thanks very much. I'll publish the result here first but I expect many of you will hear or see it in the news. If I should loose the press will have a field day!
Ian
Ian: It's not the winning that counts...blah blah.
You took it upon yourself to take one step fwd and you should be very proud of yourself.
Irrespective of the outcome, you have changed the course of aviation law (in no small way) and whether it happens now or 5 yrs from now....IT WILL HAPPEN.
You have generated movement, now get on a plane to barbados and spend all our dosh before it's too late!!
Maintaining a listening watch............................
You took it upon yourself to take one step fwd and you should be very proud of yourself.
Irrespective of the outcome, you have changed the course of aviation law (in no small way) and whether it happens now or 5 yrs from now....IT WILL HAPPEN.
You have generated movement, now get on a plane to barbados and spend all our dosh before it's too late!!
Maintaining a listening watch............................
Hovering AND talking
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Originally Posted by Thomas
now get on a plane to barbados and spend all our dosh before it's too late!!
Along with a wodge of Counsel's fees to pay!!!!
Cheers
Whirls
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Hi Guys,
First of all I’d like to show my complete support for Ian Evans and wish him all the very best of luck, regarding something which affects current pilots and those like me, looking to start their training and career in the near future. DennisK, I was wondering if it would be at all possible to get the full hearing, if you have it, as I am due to sit an EU Law discrimination paper soon for my final LLB law Exams. I have been following the developments on pprune, and this would be most helpful to me in my forthcoming examinations. My email is below if you are able to forward any more information on the case.
Best
Docash1983
[email protected]
First of all I’d like to show my complete support for Ian Evans and wish him all the very best of luck, regarding something which affects current pilots and those like me, looking to start their training and career in the near future. DennisK, I was wondering if it would be at all possible to get the full hearing, if you have it, as I am due to sit an EU Law discrimination paper soon for my final LLB law Exams. I have been following the developments on pprune, and this would be most helpful to me in my forthcoming examinations. My email is below if you are able to forward any more information on the case.
Best
Docash1983
[email protected]
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Age discrimination.
Hallo Doc,
The Tribunal hearing ran to nine working days and I imagine the full transcript might run to a hundred pages minimum. You'll know better than me but based on other Court cases, I believe the transcript can be purchased, but on a High Court hearing I was involved in a while ago, the figure was several hundred pouns.
I have produced and am attaching a precis that is the basis of the article I am writing for Loop, an aviation newspaper. (April Issue) There'll be a ton of facts & figs that might help your legal studies.
Incidentally, a few accident figures became available at the hearing and I have since researched these a little further.
The CAA list the figures for a twenty year period from 1987 to 2006. In that time a total of 503 reportable accidents were recorded. Of those - 21 were where the Captain was over 59. ie some 4.17%.
Again from CAA published figures. In 2005 there was a grand total of 3,796 helicopter licenced pilots on the CAA database. 322 of these were over 59! ie 8.48%.
So it appears that while the over 60s make up 8.48% of the total pilot force, they are involved in only 4.17% of accidents. (only one of which was fatal)
One might argue that a passenger is 50% less likely to be involved in an accident when flown by one of the old boys!
I haven't yet researched the figures for flying hours, but my experience tells me that the bulk of private pilots fly less than 100 hours per year, whereas professional pilots will normally fly four or five times that amount.
I expect that my further research will reveal that a higher percentage of the older pilots hold professional licences and fly more. But I won't jump to any immediate conclusions. Just hope the CAA will take note and perhaps re-examine their 'age differences' stance.
It may show that unlike fixed wing, perhaps the experience of older pilots is more relevent in rotary flying.
I'll post the better researched figures when I am finished.
Uncle Ian, have a super break and keep off the fags! Booze allowed.
Best wishes to all,
Dennis Kenyon.
The Tribunal hearing ran to nine working days and I imagine the full transcript might run to a hundred pages minimum. You'll know better than me but based on other Court cases, I believe the transcript can be purchased, but on a High Court hearing I was involved in a while ago, the figure was several hundred pouns.
I have produced and am attaching a precis that is the basis of the article I am writing for Loop, an aviation newspaper. (April Issue) There'll be a ton of facts & figs that might help your legal studies.
Incidentally, a few accident figures became available at the hearing and I have since researched these a little further.
The CAA list the figures for a twenty year period from 1987 to 2006. In that time a total of 503 reportable accidents were recorded. Of those - 21 were where the Captain was over 59. ie some 4.17%.
Again from CAA published figures. In 2005 there was a grand total of 3,796 helicopter licenced pilots on the CAA database. 322 of these were over 59! ie 8.48%.
So it appears that while the over 60s make up 8.48% of the total pilot force, they are involved in only 4.17% of accidents. (only one of which was fatal)
One might argue that a passenger is 50% less likely to be involved in an accident when flown by one of the old boys!
I haven't yet researched the figures for flying hours, but my experience tells me that the bulk of private pilots fly less than 100 hours per year, whereas professional pilots will normally fly four or five times that amount.
I expect that my further research will reveal that a higher percentage of the older pilots hold professional licences and fly more. But I won't jump to any immediate conclusions. Just hope the CAA will take note and perhaps re-examine their 'age differences' stance.
It may show that unlike fixed wing, perhaps the experience of older pilots is more relevent in rotary flying.
I'll post the better researched figures when I am finished.
Uncle Ian, have a super break and keep off the fags! Booze allowed.
Best wishes to all,
Dennis Kenyon.
The Original Whirly
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One might argue that a passenger is 50% less likely to be involved in an accident when flown by one of the old boys!
Ok, sorry, I'll get my coat.
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The old girls & Age Discrimination.
Hi Whirly B,
Very simple M'Lady ... there ain't a single ATPL or CPL female over 60.
My records list the oldest at 54. Hope its not you! So 'old boys' it has to remain.
Take care,
Dennis K.
Very simple M'Lady ... there ain't a single ATPL or CPL female over 60.
My records list the oldest at 54. Hope its not you! So 'old boys' it has to remain.
Take care,
Dennis K.
The Original Whirly
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My records list the oldest at 54. Hope its not you!
So if that's wrong, should we be trusting any of the figures on that list of yours?
The Original Whirly
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Oooo, I LIKE that special formula, Bertie.
There's just one problem....in that case, what do I do about my 60th Birthday Bash, planned for later this year?
There's just one problem....in that case, what do I do about my 60th Birthday Bash, planned for later this year?
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Age and the Lady formula
Hi again Whirly B,
Checked my CAA figs again, and they show the highest time lady to be 54 as mentioned in my previous post. The figs were for 2005, so now you've confessed all, that would be your good self. Have a good birthday bash next year!
On the PPL side, they have one at 59, 2 at 60, 1 at 62 and 1 at 63. Nothing private or professional over that. Gay Barrett ... where are you?
The figs can be downloaded from the CAA site. 'Pilot Licence holders by age and sex' who held a valid medical in 2005.
No further notes on Uncle Ian's case here, but thanks all those who have PM'd me with information.
Take care all.
Dennis Kenyon.
PS. And looking round the CAA's DAE meeting today at Old Warden, we sure need to draw in new blood.
Checked my CAA figs again, and they show the highest time lady to be 54 as mentioned in my previous post. The figs were for 2005, so now you've confessed all, that would be your good self. Have a good birthday bash next year!
On the PPL side, they have one at 59, 2 at 60, 1 at 62 and 1 at 63. Nothing private or professional over that. Gay Barrett ... where are you?
The figs can be downloaded from the CAA site. 'Pilot Licence holders by age and sex' who held a valid medical in 2005.
No further notes on Uncle Ian's case here, but thanks all those who have PM'd me with information.
Take care all.
Dennis Kenyon.
PS. And looking round the CAA's DAE meeting today at Old Warden, we sure need to draw in new blood.
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Disappointing news today. The tribunal will not reconvene until 4th June. I guess the, written, verdict will not hit my desk for another week after that.
I, for one, will be another year older by then. Whirlybird will be joining me for a couple of weeks only! (Or is your birthday much later this year?)
You can be sure I'll post the verdict here as soon as I have it. Fingers crossed everyone but even if it goes against me I doubt this war will be lost; there will surely be more battles ahead.
Ian
I, for one, will be another year older by then. Whirlybird will be joining me for a couple of weeks only! (Or is your birthday much later this year?)
You can be sure I'll post the verdict here as soon as I have it. Fingers crossed everyone but even if it goes against me I doubt this war will be lost; there will surely be more battles ahead.
Ian
Hovering AND talking
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That's nearly a whole quarter! Not sure whether that bauds ill or good!
Perhaps I should take a leaf out of Father Ted's books and have the funds "resting" in a high-interest account.
Cheers
Whirls
Perhaps I should take a leaf out of Father Ted's books and have the funds "resting" in a high-interest account.
Cheers
Whirls
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We Oldies
Ian ... At the Old Warden DAE meeting today, I chatted with four CAA quite senior 'pilot bods' Everyone in their department is rooting for you and wanting a 'yes' decision from the Tribunal.
DRK
DRK
The Original Whirly
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Uncle Ian,
I don't hit the big six-oh till August.
Dennis,
I don't want to make too much of this, especially when it involves my age, but neither you nor the CAA can count...I was older than that in 2005. Also, Jennifer Murray must have been at least 64, because she told me she's nearly 68 now. Hmmmm.... Anyway, I have no intention of giving up instructing till they make me, and I don't think Jennifer's giving up flying (even if she says there'll be no more record breaking trips) so those stats will change.
I don't hit the big six-oh till August.
Dennis,
I don't want to make too much of this, especially when it involves my age, but neither you nor the CAA can count...I was older than that in 2005. Also, Jennifer Murray must have been at least 64, because she told me she's nearly 68 now. Hmmmm.... Anyway, I have no intention of giving up instructing till they make me, and I don't think Jennifer's giving up flying (even if she says there'll be no more record breaking trips) so those stats will change.
Hovering AND talking
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Am I the only mathematician here? I make it 1 year and 4 months??? Could be worse Ian; you could be old enough to be .....
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
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Thankyou Whirls. I wasn't going to mention it, having already told Dennis that he and the CAA can't count. Nice to know that even though I'll soon be officially 'old', my brain still works fine. 
I wasn't going to mention it, having already told Dennis that he and the CAA can't count. Nice to know that even though I'll soon be officially 'old', my brain still works fine.
Hovering AND talking
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Pr'haps it's a girl thing, this numbers lark!!
Anyway, my theory .... the CAA compile figures based on those who held medicals. However, although the figures are published for 2005, they are probably based on medicals from around three years earlier i.e. 2002 which would work (I think). I'm sorry but I can't imagine that the CAA are that up to date with their data especially after what DRK said about them not even having the figures for post-60 medical holders vs accidents.
Cheers
Whirls
Anyway, my theory .... the CAA compile figures based on those who held medicals. However, although the figures are published for 2005, they are probably based on medicals from around three years earlier i.e. 2002 which would work (I think). I'm sorry but I can't imagine that the CAA are that up to date with their data especially after what DRK said about them not even having the figures for post-60 medical holders vs accidents.
Cheers
Whirls