Civilian Helicopter down in Iraq
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SAS
At risk of getting away from the thread let me say that I tremble every time I hear Americans talking about terrorist bombers. For 30 years we had to put up with the IRA bombers killing our innocents with bombs that were paid for with funds raised, quite openly, in America. Terrorism was something that happened somewhere else until 9/11 and then, and only then did we see those funds begin to wane and the IRA begin to talk turkey.
It was just 5 years ago that I got on my bicycle (literally) and cycled down to Portsmouth, got on a ferry to Le Havre and then cycled along the Normandy beaches. I went all the way to the Omaha Beach Cemetery to pay my personal homage to the young Americans who gave their lives so that I could have the freedom to berate some of their sons and grandsons for seeing the light on Terrorism a little late in the day. Churchill once said "you can always trust the Americans to do the right thing - eventually". Well, I'm waiting.
G
It was just 5 years ago that I got on my bicycle (literally) and cycled down to Portsmouth, got on a ferry to Le Havre and then cycled along the Normandy beaches. I went all the way to the Omaha Beach Cemetery to pay my personal homage to the young Americans who gave their lives so that I could have the freedom to berate some of their sons and grandsons for seeing the light on Terrorism a little late in the day. Churchill once said "you can always trust the Americans to do the right thing - eventually". Well, I'm waiting.
G
Thread Starter
I suppose visiting a grave yard is might be a way of claiming the high moral ground in a debate. Perhaps, it is the mass graves in Iraq that Saddam's regime filled with his victims that would be the more appropriate venue to use for such a basis to an argument.
I do love the IRA funding argument, and it does have some validity, however to think the IRA got a support from the vast majority of the American population is a real stretch. I will bet you 999 of a 1000 Americans do not even know the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland much less why the fuss that went on.
I will also bet those same folks could not find the place on any map of the world. Remember, we are the folks who do not have passports or speak anything but American English.
I do love the IRA funding argument, and it does have some validity, however to think the IRA got a support from the vast majority of the American population is a real stretch. I will bet you 999 of a 1000 Americans do not even know the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland much less why the fuss that went on.
I will also bet those same folks could not find the place on any map of the world. Remember, we are the folks who do not have passports or speak anything but American English.
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Oh dear!
We're going to get our wrists slapped if we carry on like this SAS but I'm the right side of a hot toddy (going down with the flu) and the debate is more stimulating than swotting for my tech exam (Friday).
1. I do not tar the great American population with the same brush as you say but the folk on the hill would not listen to our pleas for help until 9/12.
2. Saddam Hussein was not a terrorist. He was a brutal dictator and we hate what he stood for and what he did. Only history will judge whether his removal was worth the lives and mayhem a poorly run war has caused. Building a case for war on lies and half truths is not, however, a very good start.
I respect your position SAS, maybe we should move on before we get our arses kicked for playing out our feelings in what is meant to be a serious forum.
Geoffers
1. I do not tar the great American population with the same brush as you say but the folk on the hill would not listen to our pleas for help until 9/12.
2. Saddam Hussein was not a terrorist. He was a brutal dictator and we hate what he stood for and what he did. Only history will judge whether his removal was worth the lives and mayhem a poorly run war has caused. Building a case for war on lies and half truths is not, however, a very good start.
I respect your position SAS, maybe we should move on before we get our arses kicked for playing out our feelings in what is meant to be a serious forum.
Geoffers
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 24th Jan 2007 at 20:52.
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SAS
If you're right about the average American's knowledge of affairs in the rest of the world, it would explain why it was so easy for President Bush and his Administration to con so many people into transferring their understandable anger following 9/11 from Osama bin Laden/Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein.
'Get Bin Laden' was cleverly (credit due) turned into 'Get Saddam Hussein' remarkable quickly.
Although to be entirely fair, from what I read and hear direct, a substantial proportion of them now realise they were conned and aren't too happy about it.
If you're right about the average American's knowledge of affairs in the rest of the world, it would explain why it was so easy for President Bush and his Administration to con so many people into transferring their understandable anger following 9/11 from Osama bin Laden/Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein.
'Get Bin Laden' was cleverly (credit due) turned into 'Get Saddam Hussein' remarkable quickly.
Although to be entirely fair, from what I read and hear direct, a substantial proportion of them now realise they were conned and aren't too happy about it.
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Any correlation between the Iraqi invasion and the war on terrorism is fictional, and existed only in the minds of several top US officials who now admit they were wrong. Even Chaney said that he "never said there was a link between Iraq and Al Queda." The back-peddling by the administration is eye-watering.
Only those who cannot think still believe that the war on Iraq has been good for the war on terrorism. Even the CIA has publiclly said otherwise. And every time I read some right winged warmonger tell me he can sleep better because we killed 100,000 Iraqis, I know we need another election, fast.
Only those who cannot think still believe that the war on Iraq has been good for the war on terrorism. Even the CIA has publiclly said otherwise. And every time I read some right winged warmonger tell me he can sleep better because we killed 100,000 Iraqis, I know we need another election, fast.
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Since the beginning of the year 2007 contractors are subject to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Before that they were immune to the iraqi law. I wonder if we will see that they find other legal loopholes.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justi.../a/civucmj.htm
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justi.../a/civucmj.htm
Thread Starter
RJ....
Perhaps a check on the time line between votes in Congress authorizing the war and the time when things started going south, would show an amazing correlation between those now screaming foul and that point in the time line.
You reckon some of the current naysayers contemplated a short sweet deal like Gulf One and now that anything but that has developed....they are now embarrassed they did not challenge the decision they supported at the time of their vote.
I would suggest they see the war as a tar baby and are trying their best to blame anyone but themselves for not standing on principle. If they were so opposed to war, this war, or any war....why did they not take that principled stand and vote against it before they voted for it. Just the opposite of John Kerry who voted for it before he voted against it.
Perhaps a check on the time line between votes in Congress authorizing the war and the time when things started going south, would show an amazing correlation between those now screaming foul and that point in the time line.
You reckon some of the current naysayers contemplated a short sweet deal like Gulf One and now that anything but that has developed....they are now embarrassed they did not challenge the decision they supported at the time of their vote.
I would suggest they see the war as a tar baby and are trying their best to blame anyone but themselves for not standing on principle. If they were so opposed to war, this war, or any war....why did they not take that principled stand and vote against it before they voted for it. Just the opposite of John Kerry who voted for it before he voted against it.
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Couple of problems with your point of view, kimo sabe:
1) Those who voted for the war simply agreed with Bush, who flim-flammed the US into believing things which were since proved wrong. Don't blame those of us who were tricked, blame the trickster. Unless you think Bush needed those votes, in which case, why did he say the other day he didn't care what Congress said, he was building up troop levels (against the advice of everyone in sight.)
2) If you think everybody is against the war because it is going badly, you are right. You LIKE how Bush has run it? Why is a badly run war something to hold onto?
3) Regardless of what you thought then, if you still think it was a good idea to attack Iraq, you ought to get out more and find out what has been found out since. No WMD, No link to Al Queda, No yellowcake, No aluminum tubes, No mobile biological trucks. Just lies.
OK let me say helicopter. There I said it.
1) Those who voted for the war simply agreed with Bush, who flim-flammed the US into believing things which were since proved wrong. Don't blame those of us who were tricked, blame the trickster. Unless you think Bush needed those votes, in which case, why did he say the other day he didn't care what Congress said, he was building up troop levels (against the advice of everyone in sight.)
2) If you think everybody is against the war because it is going badly, you are right. You LIKE how Bush has run it? Why is a badly run war something to hold onto?
3) Regardless of what you thought then, if you still think it was a good idea to attack Iraq, you ought to get out more and find out what has been found out since. No WMD, No link to Al Queda, No yellowcake, No aluminum tubes, No mobile biological trucks. Just lies.
OK let me say helicopter. There I said it.
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SAS, GIC, RJ:
I believe that this topic could be better debated at the Steak&Ale.
If they have enough alcohol, we could get into religion.
Can anyone check out the occupancy rate of the drunk tank?
Just planning ahead.
Chas A
I believe that this topic could be better debated at the Steak&Ale.
If they have enough alcohol, we could get into religion.
Can anyone check out the occupancy rate of the drunk tank?
Just planning ahead.
Chas A
Thread Starter
Sir,
It does not take Alcohol to incur a bout of religion....flying with the G-Man will do it for you as well!
Our dear friend and colleague Nick Lappos is a dedicated Tee Totaller.....to the extent he will hide and swear his airline flight broke down rather than make an appearance at a bar (or else is merely afraid to drive in the dark).
To think I had a bottle of Middleton's and a back up bottle of Cardhu for him to enjoy....had to pour it down the drain instead.
It does not take Alcohol to incur a bout of religion....flying with the G-Man will do it for you as well!
Our dear friend and colleague Nick Lappos is a dedicated Tee Totaller.....to the extent he will hide and swear his airline flight broke down rather than make an appearance at a bar (or else is merely afraid to drive in the dark).
To think I had a bottle of Middleton's and a back up bottle of Cardhu for him to enjoy....had to pour it down the drain instead.
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"Perhaps the difference between our two countries is we prefer not fighting wars on our own ground and try to fight them in someone else's ground. That is both good and bad if you consider that makes such things a much more distant and less threatening situation for Joe Six Pack here in the USA"
I've heard that argument a couple of times before as justification for invading Iraq and every time I hear it, it strikes me as supremely cynical. I bet you wouldn't think that was such a great concept if you were an Iraqi civilian.
I've heard that argument a couple of times before as justification for invading Iraq and every time I hear it, it strikes me as supremely cynical. I bet you wouldn't think that was such a great concept if you were an Iraqi civilian.
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"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of simple mindedness"
Put another way, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
All countries throughout the history of man have funded the introduction of certain leaders only later to fund their downfall. The US helped put Saddam in power and funded him greatly when he was waring with Iran. The US funded the Taliban and its predecessors when they were waring with Russia where both sides undertook tactics very similar to "terorists" today. The US funded "freedom fighters" in Central America during the 80's who undertook tactics very similar to "terrorists" today. As a President of the US once said, "He may be an SOB, but he is our SOB."
The fact is that all countries, clans, religous groups and other organized bodies since the beginning of time have funded these types of activities and will do so as long as it serves their current strategic, tactical or political position at the time. All of us will simply be labled a terrorist if you are on "their" side and a freedom fighter if you are on "our" side.
As a final observation, I am quite sure that the British could make an argument that the Continental Militias were in essence terrorists and undertook terrorist activities because many units did not think standing in a field facing british artillery and firepower was such a great tactic. Naturally, the founding fathers would argue otherwise.......I think it is pretty difficult for any objective person not to accept these are simply the facts of human behaivor.
I suspect it simply depends upon which shoe you are standing in.......in either event, war is usually profitable for someone.
Put another way, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
All countries throughout the history of man have funded the introduction of certain leaders only later to fund their downfall. The US helped put Saddam in power and funded him greatly when he was waring with Iran. The US funded the Taliban and its predecessors when they were waring with Russia where both sides undertook tactics very similar to "terorists" today. The US funded "freedom fighters" in Central America during the 80's who undertook tactics very similar to "terrorists" today. As a President of the US once said, "He may be an SOB, but he is our SOB."
The fact is that all countries, clans, religous groups and other organized bodies since the beginning of time have funded these types of activities and will do so as long as it serves their current strategic, tactical or political position at the time. All of us will simply be labled a terrorist if you are on "their" side and a freedom fighter if you are on "our" side.
As a final observation, I am quite sure that the British could make an argument that the Continental Militias were in essence terrorists and undertook terrorist activities because many units did not think standing in a field facing british artillery and firepower was such a great tactic. Naturally, the founding fathers would argue otherwise.......I think it is pretty difficult for any objective person not to accept these are simply the facts of human behaivor.
I suspect it simply depends upon which shoe you are standing in.......in either event, war is usually profitable for someone.
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Hey!
Who done it? Fess up.
How come two posts , each with a picture, were censored?
How come two posts , each with a picture, were censored?
I didn't say anything political, religious, or sexual. A picture maybe worth a 1000 words but the second picture was only of a pussycat playing with a shoelace.
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I did.
No, you didn't say anything political but, as you say, a picture is worth a 1000 words.
We're pushing our luck having a political discussion of any sort in this forum.
If it's pushed too far:
either those who support PPRuNe's 'no politics in the aviation forums' rule will object
or an Admin will move the thread to Jetblast (even if the Mods here don't)
or both.
No, you didn't say anything political but, as you say, a picture is worth a 1000 words.
We're pushing our luck having a political discussion of any sort in this forum.
If it's pushed too far:
either those who support PPRuNe's 'no politics in the aviation forums' rule will object
or an Admin will move the thread to Jetblast (even if the Mods here don't)
or both.
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SAS,
" had to pour it down the drain instead." I am assuming you re-cycled it before pouring it down the porcelin drain.
In the spirit of Globalism, perhaps the US can offer employment to out of work VC and bored American pilots. Think: Cobra's covering the guys in black pajamas sweeping through Fallujah. NVA Aerial Observers in the Loaches.
Then, on to Afghanistan, to meet with the people who destroyed the Bhuddist Statues.
Stopper back in the Laphroig. Must work tomorrow.
Heliport:
Hope you realize this is fantasy, not politics. The definitions blur.
Chas A
" had to pour it down the drain instead." I am assuming you re-cycled it before pouring it down the porcelin drain.
In the spirit of Globalism, perhaps the US can offer employment to out of work VC and bored American pilots. Think: Cobra's covering the guys in black pajamas sweeping through Fallujah. NVA Aerial Observers in the Loaches.
Then, on to Afghanistan, to meet with the people who destroyed the Bhuddist Statues.
Stopper back in the Laphroig. Must work tomorrow.
Heliport:
Hope you realize this is fantasy, not politics. The definitions blur.
Chas A
Thread Starter
SirV.....of course I believe in living "Green"....no way would I casually poison the ground water with Alcohol. I certainly did filter the polluting substances from the Whisky as all environmentally aware persons would do.
Gatvol
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"Exactly how legal is it for paid mercenaries to be flying armed helicopters or let off on rooftops to kill people? Where is the chain of command, and what is international law in that respect?"
My Nick, how times flys. Back in the days while you were in OD aircraft and some of your friends were in the White/Blue Hueys? Remember them ,and did you ask them?
Anyway not many of us have not been touched by Iraq and its mess. The pilot and friend of mine who was killed also had a brother flying a ship in the same sortie, Hes alive you can ask him.
My Opinion on the "Mercenary" title is that the American Military is so handcuffed by the politicians that they need someone who can get in and do certain things outside their rules. I am certainly not envious of the military folks over there who have to daily get their ass kicked and cannot kick back.
My rules say that if I receive one round from a House or Hotel, Mosque, the whole XXXXing block disappears. I guess thats why im not in charge.
CW4 Art Laguna was his name, and Im not gonna forget him.....
My Nick, how times flys. Back in the days while you were in OD aircraft and some of your friends were in the White/Blue Hueys? Remember them ,and did you ask them?
Anyway not many of us have not been touched by Iraq and its mess. The pilot and friend of mine who was killed also had a brother flying a ship in the same sortie, Hes alive you can ask him.
My Opinion on the "Mercenary" title is that the American Military is so handcuffed by the politicians that they need someone who can get in and do certain things outside their rules. I am certainly not envious of the military folks over there who have to daily get their ass kicked and cannot kick back.
My rules say that if I receive one round from a House or Hotel, Mosque, the whole XXXXing block disappears. I guess thats why im not in charge.
CW4 Art Laguna was his name, and Im not gonna forget him.....
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BSousa, I think you blame the wrong folks. Shakespeare said it best:
"But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath
a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and
arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind
them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it
will be a black matter for the king that led them to
it;"
Henry V, Act IV
The King has a heavy reckoning, Bert. He took us there, and he blew it.
"But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath
a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and
arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind
them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it
will be a black matter for the king that led them to
it;"
Henry V, Act IV
The King has a heavy reckoning, Bert. He took us there, and he blew it.