SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Red Wine,
I do partially agree with you about definitive care at the roadside, however, there is a change in some ambulance services which is going back to stabilise and mobilise. Definitive Care will always be in the hospital for major cases. The ambulance deals with the situation and then gets the cas to hospital in the most expeditious and safe manner. This is why we have air ambulances/SAR etc.
As for me being blunt - point taken and apologies alround.
I do partially agree with you about definitive care at the roadside, however, there is a change in some ambulance services which is going back to stabilise and mobilise. Definitive Care will always be in the hospital for major cases. The ambulance deals with the situation and then gets the cas to hospital in the most expeditious and safe manner. This is why we have air ambulances/SAR etc.
As for me being blunt - point taken and apologies alround.
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Sar Pilot Aptitude Test
Ladies and Gentlemen
Tio all aspiring SAR pilots, may I present the ultimate aptitude test. It is Community Race Relations friendly, and perhaps the standard we should all aspire to
http://www.emergency.qld.gov.au/aviation/kids/[URL=http://]
Tio all aspiring SAR pilots, may I present the ultimate aptitude test. It is Community Race Relations friendly, and perhaps the standard we should all aspire to
http://www.emergency.qld.gov.au/aviation/kids/[URL=http://]
Join Date: May 2002
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County, based in the Midlands, operates according to Pre-Hospital Trauma Life Support (PHTLS), which a Royal College of Surgeons (England) course.
Basically, emphasis is on "platinum 10 minutes" on scene in a "time critical" patient (ie. one with serious injuries) - only actions on scene being securing of the airway (if necessary) and spinal immobilisation. Then continue rest of treatment en route to hospital - drips, intravenous fluids, analgesia, immobilising factures, etc.
Based on evidence from Sheffield University showing a higher risk of dying the longer that is spent on-scene.
Anton
Basically, emphasis is on "platinum 10 minutes" on scene in a "time critical" patient (ie. one with serious injuries) - only actions on scene being securing of the airway (if necessary) and spinal immobilisation. Then continue rest of treatment en route to hospital - drips, intravenous fluids, analgesia, immobilising factures, etc.
Based on evidence from Sheffield University showing a higher risk of dying the longer that is spent on-scene.
Anton
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Conservative logic.......
Sorry, but there will always be horses for courses....!!
As I first stated, the main land UK was the slowest to adopt the concept of Paramedic and acute Pre-hospital care by specially trained personnel....and is still the most conservative in this discipline.
With the danger of ruffling a few feathers, the UK also has the most conservativelly trained pre-hostipal professionals in the Western World.....just conservative.
As far as horses for courses are concerned......remember you can fit the UK into Australia about 32 times [what a awful thought.
]......my point???......I would be only half way to my first refuelling point when you are back in bed......so hence we must train harder and higher, and do things a little different, or our injured will suffer.
We are all on the same side.........
As I first stated, the main land UK was the slowest to adopt the concept of Paramedic and acute Pre-hospital care by specially trained personnel....and is still the most conservative in this discipline.
With the danger of ruffling a few feathers, the UK also has the most conservativelly trained pre-hostipal professionals in the Western World.....just conservative.
As far as horses for courses are concerned......remember you can fit the UK into Australia about 32 times [what a awful thought.
]......my point???......I would be only half way to my first refuelling point when you are back in bed......so hence we must train harder and higher, and do things a little different, or our injured will suffer.We are all on the same side.........
Join Date: May 2002
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Completely agree about conservative nature of pre-hospital care in the UK. Our paramedisc still do not perform Rapid Sequence Induction, put in chest drains, naso-gastric tubes, urinary catheters, cardiovert (small shocks for treatment of a rapid pulse), etc., etc.
Some is due to the short distances, but mostly due to the forces of conservatism to which you refer!!
Some of the best jobs I have done have taken the best part of a day worth of travelling, etc., in Africa.
Our long-distance stuff is over half an hour here!!
Cheers
Anton
Some is due to the short distances, but mostly due to the forces of conservatism to which you refer!!
Some of the best jobs I have done have taken the best part of a day worth of travelling, etc., in Africa.
Our long-distance stuff is over half an hour here!!
Cheers
Anton
Join Date: Apr 2000
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After reading through this thread and also a few years 'in the seat' I would also like to add a few points that seemed to have slipped throught the net.
The public tend to see a helicopter in a low hover and for whatever reason think they need to stand under it
The aircraft is normally tasked and in constant radion contact with the Rescue Co-ordination center. Through this contact the crew will be informed of the stability of the patient and also the need to remain on scene should the stability situation change.
The crew will also be in contact with the rescue services 'on the ground', normally through harbour radio IMM16. The rescue services will generally be more concerned with a rapid pickup in the case of an injured person suddendly becoming worse than the loss of a pair of dinghys. In general damage caused as a direct result of SAR helo ops can be claimed for through the MOD.
Downwash is of great concern to SAR crews, especially when operating over cliffs or mountains. Remeber the crews do this job, 10ft away from the hard stuff day and night, VMC or IMC. Judge for yourself the training level.
The public tend to see a helicopter in a low hover and for whatever reason think they need to stand under it
The aircraft is normally tasked and in constant radion contact with the Rescue Co-ordination center. Through this contact the crew will be informed of the stability of the patient and also the need to remain on scene should the stability situation change.
The crew will also be in contact with the rescue services 'on the ground', normally through harbour radio IMM16. The rescue services will generally be more concerned with a rapid pickup in the case of an injured person suddendly becoming worse than the loss of a pair of dinghys. In general damage caused as a direct result of SAR helo ops can be claimed for through the MOD.
Downwash is of great concern to SAR crews, especially when operating over cliffs or mountains. Remeber the crews do this job, 10ft away from the hard stuff day and night, VMC or IMC. Judge for yourself the training level.
DeepC, without doubt every SAR pilot in the UK is painfully aware of the destructive capability of the Sea King downwash and will usually go to great lengths to avoid putting it in the wrong place. However comma an unconscious man in a RIB has presumably suffered a head injury and having the Air ambulance on scene does not mean a paramedic is with the casualty - therefore the priority must be to extract the casualty quickly or at least place the winchman (paramedic trained) with the casualty so he can assess the level of injury. Frankly this comes first and foremost and the fact that a couple of yotties will have to claim on their insurance for a new outboard comes a very poor second to saving someones life (casualties with head injuries can deteriorate very quickly). As for the other situation which you imply was well under control - a cliff sticker/faller can be just about to fall the 5m that might kill him and a cliff rescue team takes a while to rope up and deploy once they have arrived on scene. Therefore as captain of the aircraft do you take immediate action to prevent loss of life and rescue the cliff sticker/faller or do you watch him drop off the cliff and break himself. Again the scattering of a few peoples picnics is not much of a price to pay. Coastguard units often have big problems with clearing the public away from SARops as everyone wants to rubberneck and none of them can anticipate the effects of the downwash.
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Crab,
Thanks for the reply. A few thoughts from where I stood. Regarding the couple of yotties needing to fork out for a new motor comment. I would agree that in the situation I saw the downwash casualties were limited to a couple of capsizing empty RIBs and the subsequent loss of their motors and therefore it was a small price to pay. The fact was that not ten minutes before, there were two young lads (around 10 years old) paddling around in a couple of small inflatable dinghies. Shouldn't think they weighed much more than an RIB with an outboard attached. Saying that, I could be selling the pilots short and they had checked the contents of all inflatable boats in the area.
Regarding the beach incident. I was wondering at the time why he did not hover over the sea or over nearby farmland from where the response time would have been just as quick.
I should not really criticise you so please take this as questions rather than criticism.
Thanks
DeepC
Thanks for the reply. A few thoughts from where I stood. Regarding the couple of yotties needing to fork out for a new motor comment. I would agree that in the situation I saw the downwash casualties were limited to a couple of capsizing empty RIBs and the subsequent loss of their motors and therefore it was a small price to pay. The fact was that not ten minutes before, there were two young lads (around 10 years old) paddling around in a couple of small inflatable dinghies. Shouldn't think they weighed much more than an RIB with an outboard attached. Saying that, I could be selling the pilots short and they had checked the contents of all inflatable boats in the area.
Regarding the beach incident. I was wondering at the time why he did not hover over the sea or over nearby farmland from where the response time would have been just as quick.
I should not really criticise you so please take this as questions rather than criticism.
Thanks
DeepC
DeppC, without actually being in the aircraft at the time it is impossible to know exactly what the crew were doing or what other inputs and information they had regarding the situation - if you know where the cab came from then give them a ring and ask.
The point of my post was to highlight the priorities for the captain - ie safety of the aircraft and crew first, then the saving of life/prevention of loss of life. Sitting around having a chat and waiting for someone else to come and do the job really isn't an option, I suspect you would be less than happy if an ambulance crew drove without the blues and twos and then had a tea break when they arrived at your house after you had called 999 because one of your family was sick/ill/dying.
I don't really understand your comments about the beach job, if you need to get the winchman to the casualty you either land on close by and let him walk in or winch him straight to the casualty - hovering over the sea or nearby farmland wouldn't have achieved much. The crew must have decided that the casualty was in danger and that their priority was the prevention of the loss of life or injury that could have occurred if the cliff sticker had fallen/jumped.
The point of my post was to highlight the priorities for the captain - ie safety of the aircraft and crew first, then the saving of life/prevention of loss of life. Sitting around having a chat and waiting for someone else to come and do the job really isn't an option, I suspect you would be less than happy if an ambulance crew drove without the blues and twos and then had a tea break when they arrived at your house after you had called 999 because one of your family was sick/ill/dying.
I don't really understand your comments about the beach job, if you need to get the winchman to the casualty you either land on close by and let him walk in or winch him straight to the casualty - hovering over the sea or nearby farmland wouldn't have achieved much. The crew must have decided that the casualty was in danger and that their priority was the prevention of the loss of life or injury that could have occurred if the cliff sticker had fallen/jumped.
Engine failure during rescue work
I do not have the excact details but this week an Austrian helicopter had to drop a member of a mountain rescue team hanging underslung into a nearby lake after experiencing engine governing problems.
The helicopter made a successful emergency landing on a nearby airfield but the man is still missing presumed drowned after falling into the lake carrying all his mountain rescue gear.
I do not know the type of helicopter they where using and what the problem was excactly but I would be interested to hear what procedures pilots use to safely land with someone hanging underneath them if they experience an engine failure.
All Austrian mountain rescue helicopters now use a underslung technique and not a winch to rescue people of mountains to give them extra space (they don't need a dedicated winchman) in the helicopter (EC135).
Any comments???
The helicopter made a successful emergency landing on a nearby airfield but the man is still missing presumed drowned after falling into the lake carrying all his mountain rescue gear.
I do not know the type of helicopter they where using and what the problem was excactly but I would be interested to hear what procedures pilots use to safely land with someone hanging underneath them if they experience an engine failure.
All Austrian mountain rescue helicopters now use a underslung technique and not a winch to rescue people of mountains to give them extra space (they don't need a dedicated winchman) in the helicopter (EC135).
Any comments???
Sounds like they are just getting set up for the start of next years Fire Diving season!
Join Date: Dec 2001
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The subject is a thorny one, and one that bedevils certification and operating authorities the world over.
You can make a case for allowing someone to be firmly attached to a helicopter (not on a hoist/ winch) for the purposes of saving lives - the risk to the person underneath the helicopter of an engine failure having bad consequences is outweighed by the benefit to the person being rescued. But there is always a risk that things will go wrong, and when they do, there are folks who will say "I told you so".
This could generate a lot of discussion - my sympathies to the family of the missing man, and to the pilot of the helicopter who had to make that decision.
Shawn
You can make a case for allowing someone to be firmly attached to a helicopter (not on a hoist/ winch) for the purposes of saving lives - the risk to the person underneath the helicopter of an engine failure having bad consequences is outweighed by the benefit to the person being rescued. But there is always a risk that things will go wrong, and when they do, there are folks who will say "I told you so".
This could generate a lot of discussion - my sympathies to the family of the missing man, and to the pilot of the helicopter who had to make that decision.
Shawn
Accident occured at 12:00 on monday. A mountain rescuer was hanging on a fixed line underneath a A 119 for a rescue practice. It seems that during the practice the helicopter got a FADEC failure with a very strong governor overspeed. The RPM was only at climbing power to control. The (very experienced) pilot climbed up from approx. 3000 to 9000 ft with the rescuer on the fixed line. During that time all possible decisions was discussed by radio between ground crew, rescuer and pilot. At the end the decision was made to fly from the mountains to the great lake "Bodensee" between switzerland, germany and austria. After the flight to the lake all possible forces were on scene including some vessels and an other rescue helicopter "Christopherus 8" circled over the dropping area. The A 119 pilot cuted the engine to idle and autorotated from 9000 ft to the lake. In the last moment flat over the lake the pilot flared the helicopter, increased the engine power (to the old failure with overspeed) and dropped the rescuer in to the lake. The other rescue helicopter and some vessels were within some seconds at the dropping zone but - the man was gone and is still missed. The A 119 made an emergency touchdown at hohenems without greater damage. That's the known facts at the moment. I don't know the A119 and her engine control and i'm glad not to be the pilot.
Fixed line is a difficult business and i remember my thread "Technique and experience for mountain rescue". We discussed the fixed line and hoist operations.
My sincere condolences to the family of the rescuer and the pilot affected by this tragic accident.
Fixed line is a difficult business and i remember my thread "Technique and experience for mountain rescue". We discussed the fixed line and hoist operations.
My sincere condolences to the family of the rescuer and the pilot affected by this tragic accident.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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In this case, assuming the rope was attached to the side of the helicopter and not right underneath the belly, the rescuer could have climbed up the rope if he had had a pair of jumar clips. Cavers use what they call single rope technique to climb up hundreds of feet of freely hanging rope.
Obviously, this would be no use in a sudden engine failure, but might it have been a solution here?
Awful.
QDM
Obviously, this would be no use in a sudden engine failure, but might it have been a solution here?
Awful.
QDM
Join Date: Nov 2000
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After 13 years in Navy SAR, this is why we receive extra Hazardous duty pay.
I agree with Shawn, one has to weigh the benefits of making the rescue vs. someone on the line when things go south in the bird.
I can say that everyone who does that type of work knows, and (I hope) accepts those risks involved.
If I were taking my personal experiences into account for your question woolf, I would say that I am expendable out there, the pilot is going to land or make the maneuvers necessary to get the heli down safely, if that includes time to take me into account and maneuver, then (I believe) he/she will, but again, hoists have a cable cut as well. From tecpilot, it sounds like the guy had a good pilot who responded the best he could, placing him into the lake would have been preferable to land.
(Don't let my tone lead you elsewhere, I'm sorry to see that happen to anyone, condolances all around.)
I agree with Shawn, one has to weigh the benefits of making the rescue vs. someone on the line when things go south in the bird.
I can say that everyone who does that type of work knows, and (I hope) accepts those risks involved.
If I were taking my personal experiences into account for your question woolf, I would say that I am expendable out there, the pilot is going to land or make the maneuvers necessary to get the heli down safely, if that includes time to take me into account and maneuver, then (I believe) he/she will, but again, hoists have a cable cut as well. From tecpilot, it sounds like the guy had a good pilot who responded the best he could, placing him into the lake would have been preferable to land.
(Don't let my tone lead you elsewhere, I'm sorry to see that happen to anyone, condolances all around.)
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From the sounds of things, this was one of those days. It looks like the pilot did everything in his power to save the situation.
The analysis of the engine problem is going to be pretty interesting as well - was this failure a known type of failure?
The pilot must be congratulated in some way for his attempt - any suggestions with regards to awards?
Shawn
The analysis of the engine problem is going to be pretty interesting as well - was this failure a known type of failure?
The pilot must be congratulated in some way for his attempt - any suggestions with regards to awards?
Shawn
rescue
SASless-Bad taste!
This sad accident reminds me of a time and a place in the Far East ,in the mid-60`s when we were required to pick-up some of the Men-in-black from Hereford,if they found themselves on the hot-foot from the enemy and no LZfor p/up.We carried several sets of abseil-tapes(before ropes were used) and a couple of rescue strops,attached to one end of the tapes,plus sand-bag as ballast;the other ends were attached to the winch cable,or the para-rail.Said troops would then attach themselves and be hauled skywards to a safe location,2at a time,repeat op/a/r until all are safe. At the time we were also experiencingengie computer problems which if you were unlucky could give a runaway up/down/freeze,but you could use manual throttle,assuming you didn`t surge as well.A couple of SOP`S were tucked away (as this was not approved by any higher authority),that in the event of engine problems,anyone on the tapes would be cut-away over a river,or along a beach,or in the worst case into the trees,or if stuck at high power,then if possible,be dropped-off on a fly-through on a ridge at about 5000ft where on would be short of OGE hover power,and then sort the a/c out from there.Fortunately ,we never had to try the SOP`S in anger,but they may give a little food for thought.
A couple of further thoughts come to mind,sitting in a comfortable chair; Could rescuers on a long-line also wear an emergency -type `chute,or have one attached by static -line to the a/c,at the a/c end of the long-line?What about a mini life-jacket as well? I know there are mobility problems for the rescuer,but I`m sure that there must be kit that is available that you Ppruners know about/use/seen and can share the information around,so we hopefully won`t see a similar tragedy again.
My sincere condolences to all the families and compatriots.
This sad accident reminds me of a time and a place in the Far East ,in the mid-60`s when we were required to pick-up some of the Men-in-black from Hereford,if they found themselves on the hot-foot from the enemy and no LZfor p/up.We carried several sets of abseil-tapes(before ropes were used) and a couple of rescue strops,attached to one end of the tapes,plus sand-bag as ballast;the other ends were attached to the winch cable,or the para-rail.Said troops would then attach themselves and be hauled skywards to a safe location,2at a time,repeat op/a/r until all are safe. At the time we were also experiencingengie computer problems which if you were unlucky could give a runaway up/down/freeze,but you could use manual throttle,assuming you didn`t surge as well.A couple of SOP`S were tucked away (as this was not approved by any higher authority),that in the event of engine problems,anyone on the tapes would be cut-away over a river,or along a beach,or in the worst case into the trees,or if stuck at high power,then if possible,be dropped-off on a fly-through on a ridge at about 5000ft where on would be short of OGE hover power,and then sort the a/c out from there.Fortunately ,we never had to try the SOP`S in anger,but they may give a little food for thought.
A couple of further thoughts come to mind,sitting in a comfortable chair; Could rescuers on a long-line also wear an emergency -type `chute,or have one attached by static -line to the a/c,at the a/c end of the long-line?What about a mini life-jacket as well? I know there are mobility problems for the rescuer,but I`m sure that there must be kit that is available that you Ppruners know about/use/seen and can share the information around,so we hopefully won`t see a similar tragedy again.
My sincere condolences to all the families and compatriots.
SASless, you are so funny... 
be shure unfortunately we don't understand your kind of humour.
I would like to give you a free ride fixed on a 150 ft rope underslung a single engine helicopter through the alps on Oktober at zero temperatures. May be your wet pants could be frozen. And i'm shure you could also get the ride from all mountain pilots who made such rescue flights and have lost a brave man, compeer and friend.
Your ignorance is really greater than your mind.
be shure unfortunately we don't understand your kind of humour.
I would like to give you a free ride fixed on a 150 ft rope underslung a single engine helicopter through the alps on Oktober at zero temperatures. May be your wet pants could be frozen. And i'm shure you could also get the ride from all mountain pilots who made such rescue flights and have lost a brave man, compeer and friend.
Your ignorance is really greater than your mind.
Presumably this is the 'Koala' helo?
Anyone qualified on this, out there.
If so: should a FADEC failure leading to a runaway up, occur, can't it be controlled by selecting manual?
Again out of curiosity, if the pilot could enter and recover from auto, resulting in a diversion to land, why didn't he simply land in the first instance?
Not trying to point the finger...genuinely curious in the mechanics of the failure???
Anyone qualified on this, out there.
If so: should a FADEC failure leading to a runaway up, occur, can't it be controlled by selecting manual?
Again out of curiosity, if the pilot could enter and recover from auto, resulting in a diversion to land, why didn't he simply land in the first instance?
Not trying to point the finger...genuinely curious in the mechanics of the failure???