SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
Don't know about FADEC. Is it possible to manual govern a FADEC controlled engine (fuel control lever?)?
The pilot couldn't land in autorotation with the person still hanging underneath.
The pilot couldn't land in autorotation with the person still hanging underneath.
Thomas coupling- It's a "koala" called "Robin 2" rescue helicopter operated by "schenk air" at ischgl / austria.
Try www.schenkair.at
The technical aspects are under investigation by Agusta and the authorities. Governor overspeed means that the N2 (power turbine) in the engine is above the limits. Due to the direct link between transmission and main rotor also the NR is to high. That could result in some damages in rotor and transmission. But the main problem is the turbine stage. For any turbine there are limits in overspeed in link with the turbine temperature T4. Cracks in turbine and some other mechanical problems results in a complete loss of power or an explosion and fire. If the pilot is able to increase the blade angle, he could control the N2 (direct link), but the helicopter climbs up. On autorotation N2 isn't the problem. A complete engine failure is the safe death of the underslung rescuer. Therefore the pilot made the described decision. After dropping the rescuer, the helicopter climbed up because of the still remaining governor overspeed up to hohenems with an emergency touchdown.
Try www.schenkair.at
The technical aspects are under investigation by Agusta and the authorities. Governor overspeed means that the N2 (power turbine) in the engine is above the limits. Due to the direct link between transmission and main rotor also the NR is to high. That could result in some damages in rotor and transmission. But the main problem is the turbine stage. For any turbine there are limits in overspeed in link with the turbine temperature T4. Cracks in turbine and some other mechanical problems results in a complete loss of power or an explosion and fire. If the pilot is able to increase the blade angle, he could control the N2 (direct link), but the helicopter climbs up. On autorotation N2 isn't the problem. A complete engine failure is the safe death of the underslung rescuer. Therefore the pilot made the described decision. After dropping the rescuer, the helicopter climbed up because of the still remaining governor overspeed up to hohenems with an emergency touchdown.
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First of all I would like to say that I have never flown a FADEC......but the question remains .......can a FADEC be manually controlled by throttle?.......or does a governor failure in these machines necessitate an autorotation.....
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I must echo TC's and Xnr's postings. I don't think we are getting all the relevant information on the incident. While I am not an expert on the A119, I can't believe any aviation authority would certify an aircraft whose engine is uncontrollable in the event of a FADEC or governor failure. Any FADEC controlled aircraft I am fimiliar with can be manually controlled.
Giving the pilot the benefit of the doubt, this sounds like a fuel control problem.
Is there an official website where one can read the accident report?
Giving the pilot the benefit of the doubt, this sounds like a fuel control problem.
Is there an official website where one can read the accident report?
I am familiar with FADEC, I fly with 2 of them. As mentioned above though I have yet to learn of an a/c which doesn't allow manual overide. Just crack the throttle open and your FADEC fault is no longer a problem.
However, I did read about a year ago, of an Agusta 109 over in Manilla, disappearing off radar due to a suspected FADEC run up which was uncontained (the a/c was seen to be flying along on radar at about 4000' and then climbed without permission to 8000' before disappearing off radar. Wreckage was found in the vicinity and it was reported that it suffered a FADEC fault. [Don't quote me on this, it's a faint memory recall]
Also: if he could auto to the overshoot, which would obviously entail a minimum fwd speed, why didn't he do that over the airfield he landed at (eventually) and pickle the rescuer off then, over the grass??
However, I did read about a year ago, of an Agusta 109 over in Manilla, disappearing off radar due to a suspected FADEC run up which was uncontained (the a/c was seen to be flying along on radar at about 4000' and then climbed without permission to 8000' before disappearing off radar. Wreckage was found in the vicinity and it was reported that it suffered a FADEC fault. [Don't quote me on this, it's a faint memory recall]
Also: if he could auto to the overshoot, which would obviously entail a minimum fwd speed, why didn't he do that over the airfield he landed at (eventually) and pickle the rescuer off then, over the grass??
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It seems to me that forward speed isn't the problem. I've never flown an Agusta, but I suspect autorotation would entail >1500ft/min rate of descent, which would certainly involve serious injuries to the pendulum on the end of the rope, at a minimum. Never mind the fact that the deceleration in forward speed would likely sling him forward, so the helicopter may land on him at touchdown. It doesn't take much swinging movement to make any contact with a solid object lethal. I've known of skydivers making landings to the water & who were killed because they got too much lateral movement when they overcontrolled the chute near the bottom. I certainly wouldn't want to be either individual in this situation.
The US Army did this exact same type operation using what became known as the Maguire Rig during the Vietnam war years and continue to do so. In those years we used the UH-1 series of helicopter which is single engine. The protocol for an engine failure or other forced landing was to make the autorotative approach as normal except for the procedure being altered to land the underslung man/men on the ground first.....then sidestep and land the helicopter as best possible. It was accepted that our first responsibility was to the men hanging 150 feet under the aircraft. Our priority was the safe landing of the underslung personnel and the helicopter second. The procedure for landing in such and emergency evolved from the procedures used for landing underslung loads following an engine failure.
Different helicopter, different approach to the problem, apparantly a different attitude as to what is more precious, human life or a machine. We accepted the fact that the odds of getting the machine down safely was greatly diminished but still possible.
Sounds like a plan was developed, that was sound , and called upon every resource available . It is tragic a man died. I suggest the 35 year old procedure adopted by the US Army might have prevented that death.
Yes......I have ridden the system as the guy on the end of the string.....most units had the requirement that the pilots flying the operation would ride the string first to fully appreciate what the troops being flown faced.
Different helicopter, different approach to the problem, apparantly a different attitude as to what is more precious, human life or a machine. We accepted the fact that the odds of getting the machine down safely was greatly diminished but still possible.
Sounds like a plan was developed, that was sound , and called upon every resource available . It is tragic a man died. I suggest the 35 year old procedure adopted by the US Army might have prevented that death.
Yes......I have ridden the system as the guy on the end of the string.....most units had the requirement that the pilots flying the operation would ride the string first to fully appreciate what the troops being flown faced.
Rotormad:
Full Authority Digital Engine Control.
It is an electro mechanical way of controlling the fuel supply to the engine. It anticipates the demand via a resolver and stepper motors so as to keep the Nr (rotor speed) steady (almost!). The pilot then doesn't have to worry about the rotor speed slowing down when he/she raises the collective or vica versa.
Problem starts when the FADEC fails. Should this happen (on a benign FADEC system) then the fuel supply will simply freeze at that flow rate. Now, if the pilot lowers the collective (thus asking for less power), then they will still get that (greater) frozen fuel supply, resulting in more fuel suplied than is necessary, and so the rotor speeds up. If this isn't checked then the rotor will overspeed.
Some FADEC faults could give rise to erroneous signals giving constant "too much fuel" or "too little fuel". This results in a rotor overspeed or droop respectively.
In the overspeed instance the pilot has to pull up on the collective to maintain the rotor speed within manageable parameters, otherwise the blades/transmission etc will become overstressed.
In this accident it appears the pilot had to pull on the collective to contain Nr and consequently climbed to 9000' before things settled down.
NORMALLY a FADEC fault can be contained by simply selecting MANUAL thus bypassing the entire FADEC system....
We'll have to read the accident report to find out why/how/etc..
Does this help?
Full Authority Digital Engine Control.
It is an electro mechanical way of controlling the fuel supply to the engine. It anticipates the demand via a resolver and stepper motors so as to keep the Nr (rotor speed) steady (almost!). The pilot then doesn't have to worry about the rotor speed slowing down when he/she raises the collective or vica versa.
Problem starts when the FADEC fails. Should this happen (on a benign FADEC system) then the fuel supply will simply freeze at that flow rate. Now, if the pilot lowers the collective (thus asking for less power), then they will still get that (greater) frozen fuel supply, resulting in more fuel suplied than is necessary, and so the rotor speeds up. If this isn't checked then the rotor will overspeed.
Some FADEC faults could give rise to erroneous signals giving constant "too much fuel" or "too little fuel". This results in a rotor overspeed or droop respectively.
In the overspeed instance the pilot has to pull up on the collective to maintain the rotor speed within manageable parameters, otherwise the blades/transmission etc will become overstressed.
In this accident it appears the pilot had to pull on the collective to contain Nr and consequently climbed to 9000' before things settled down.
NORMALLY a FADEC fault can be contained by simply selecting MANUAL thus bypassing the entire FADEC system....
We'll have to read the accident report to find out why/how/etc..
Does this help?
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To add to Thomas's comment - Fuel flow fixed FADEC Failure which is what most will do should there is a fault detected, is far easier to handle in a twin than a single. The remaining engine will still govern the RPM for you down to the point where the Wf of the failed engine is equal to the power requirement and up to the point of Wf of the failed engine plus the good one equals Max Q. The indications will be split all over the place but the RRPM remains under control for most normal flight states.
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Thanks for that, learnt something new!!! Just starting my ATPL groundschool with Bristol so no doubt i will be abel to partake in these conversations in the near future. Thanks again..
It does seem amazing though that still after all the resources that were utilized to try to save this man, that he still died. If there were boats and another helo on scene, probably with people already in the water, it does seem amazing that he didn't survive. An awful twist of fate i guess!!!!
Rotormad
It does seem amazing though that still after all the resources that were utilized to try to save this man, that he still died. If there were boats and another helo on scene, probably with people already in the water, it does seem amazing that he didn't survive. An awful twist of fate i guess!!!!
Rotormad
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Hi There!
In the Tirolean Newspapers they say that the Pilot droped the rescuer over the lake at a speed of 140kh to 150kh and at 20meters over ground,they also say that the chances of surviving such an impact are very small and that the man was probably allready unconscious at the moment of drop off,becouse the forces that act on the body flying at that speeds and at that altitudes are probably not survivival!!!
Today the search for the missing man was canceled!!!
Now the discussion here in Tirol will go on again becouse the Helicopter was operated by a private company
Robsibk1
In the Tirolean Newspapers they say that the Pilot droped the rescuer over the lake at a speed of 140kh to 150kh and at 20meters over ground,they also say that the chances of surviving such an impact are very small and that the man was probably allready unconscious at the moment of drop off,becouse the forces that act on the body flying at that speeds and at that altitudes are probably not survivival!!!
Today the search for the missing man was canceled!!!
Now the discussion here in Tirol will go on again becouse the Helicopter was operated by a private company
Robsibk1
Thomas Coupling - I am curious along the same lines you are - it will be intresting to examine the outcome.
Makes me VERY glad I have not had to face the same situation, but some quick observations:
I do love my twins - especially for this type of work. In Oz, you would probably be limited to a twin for this operation.
Also, as mentioned in our thread on what we would wish for in a helicopter, several of us mentioned the collective mounted throttle like the 212/412 with a decent arc of travel (unlike say the 206). Here is another incident where such a throttle could be desirable.
Makes me VERY glad I have not had to face the same situation, but some quick observations:
I do love my twins - especially for this type of work. In Oz, you would probably be limited to a twin for this operation.
Also, as mentioned in our thread on what we would wish for in a helicopter, several of us mentioned the collective mounted throttle like the 212/412 with a decent arc of travel (unlike say the 206). Here is another incident where such a throttle could be desirable.
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Engine failure during rescue
My symphathie to the families affected by this event.
The A119 uses a Electronic Engine Control (EEC) system for engine start and engine speed control when the throttle is in the normal flight idle position. There is a Mechanical back-up which is controlled by the beep (like the B206). The throttle is on the collective (same as B206). Also the throttle can be opened beyond normal flight idle in case of fuel flow difficulties. The rpm could have been controlled (and this is my understanding) by winding off enough throttle to contain the run away up situation. However, and this is a BIG however, there is nothing in the flight manual to comment on this situation other than reccommending going to Manual Over-ride system (MAN) and using the throttle, should fluctuations in engine rpm be experienced..
The EEC (Electronic Engine Control) fitted to the A119 is 'not' a FADEC system. It uses mechanical inputs to assist in engine speed control.
The A119 uses a Electronic Engine Control (EEC) system for engine start and engine speed control when the throttle is in the normal flight idle position. There is a Mechanical back-up which is controlled by the beep (like the B206). The throttle is on the collective (same as B206). Also the throttle can be opened beyond normal flight idle in case of fuel flow difficulties. The rpm could have been controlled (and this is my understanding) by winding off enough throttle to contain the run away up situation. However, and this is a BIG however, there is nothing in the flight manual to comment on this situation other than reccommending going to Manual Over-ride system (MAN) and using the throttle, should fluctuations in engine rpm be experienced..
The EEC (Electronic Engine Control) fitted to the A119 is 'not' a FADEC system. It uses mechanical inputs to assist in engine speed control.
The engine is sealed on the way to P&W Canada.
Authorities and police in Austria:
"There is no question, the pilot had done his best and there are no indications of maintenance deficits by the operator. We are looking for an engine problem! Therefore the engine will be investigated by P&W and austrian officers together. Investigations on the helicopter and to the pilot are finished."
Unfortunately the 36 years old rescuer is still missed. The pilot dropped the rescuer very low at aprox. 6ft above the water on order from a parallel flying a/c at 70kt. The rescuer from the "christopherus 8" rescue helicopter touched the unconscious man in the water, but was unable to keep him.
The pilot is one of the best pilots in Austria with a strong police and rescue background. There are clear indications that a manually engine control was impossible.
Further interesting informations on schenkair.at ( in german)
Authorities and police in Austria:
"There is no question, the pilot had done his best and there are no indications of maintenance deficits by the operator. We are looking for an engine problem! Therefore the engine will be investigated by P&W and austrian officers together. Investigations on the helicopter and to the pilot are finished."
Unfortunately the 36 years old rescuer is still missed. The pilot dropped the rescuer very low at aprox. 6ft above the water on order from a parallel flying a/c at 70kt. The rescuer from the "christopherus 8" rescue helicopter touched the unconscious man in the water, but was unable to keep him.
The pilot is one of the best pilots in Austria with a strong police and rescue background. There are clear indications that a manually engine control was impossible.
Further interesting informations on schenkair.at ( in german)
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First of all condolences to the families and support for the pilot in this moments.
This said, I would like to know points of view about how this type of operatios should be done. I see a lot of rescue jobs being done with long line on double hooks and itīs OK if there is not another way of doing it, but in my opinion the appropiate way of doing rescue jobs is with a hoist a winch man and all the stuff you may need. If you need more power get a more powerful aircraft. Just my 2 cents. I think you need the adecuate tool for the job, no matter which one it is.
This said, I would like to know points of view about how this type of operatios should be done. I see a lot of rescue jobs being done with long line on double hooks and itīs OK if there is not another way of doing it, but in my opinion the appropiate way of doing rescue jobs is with a hoist a winch man and all the stuff you may need. If you need more power get a more powerful aircraft. Just my 2 cents. I think you need the adecuate tool for the job, no matter which one it is.
rescues
Further to my earlier post on this sad event,it would be useful to know the tech. bits about " long-lining" rescues,such as how long is the line;where is it attached;what is its fail-strength;what load can you carry;is the rescuer in comms, with the pilot;?
Since this accident,have any of you guys thought about yourSOP`s;do you have SOP`s for this operation in the event of an emergency--even if you are in a twin?ie txmsn. failure,t/r failure,etc, etc?
I have been speaking today to a company that supplies equipment that is used by the military and could be adapted /installed for a weight penalty of about 8-10kgs,that may have(but probably would have) saved the rescuer.I won`t post their name,as they may be answering anyway;however,I will answer any priv.msgs to anyone interested.
Further thoughts; why was the rescuer presumed to be unconscious;was it hypothermia induced,as I cannot see the forces induced at 80kts would be that severe;except for the drop into the water;or was he spinning on the cable?Another thought,could he have been dropped on a snow-slope whilst the a/c climbed?better than dropped into the water?Only thoughts and not intended to reflect on the crew-unless you are in the cockpit,you don`t really know how it is at the time;-however,I hope people are more concerned about the survival/rescuer aspects than about the f****ng a/c-the`yre expendable,people are not!!
Since this accident,have any of you guys thought about yourSOP`s;do you have SOP`s for this operation in the event of an emergency--even if you are in a twin?ie txmsn. failure,t/r failure,etc, etc?
I have been speaking today to a company that supplies equipment that is used by the military and could be adapted /installed for a weight penalty of about 8-10kgs,that may have(but probably would have) saved the rescuer.I won`t post their name,as they may be answering anyway;however,I will answer any priv.msgs to anyone interested.
Further thoughts; why was the rescuer presumed to be unconscious;was it hypothermia induced,as I cannot see the forces induced at 80kts would be that severe;except for the drop into the water;or was he spinning on the cable?Another thought,could he have been dropped on a snow-slope whilst the a/c climbed?better than dropped into the water?Only thoughts and not intended to reflect on the crew-unless you are in the cockpit,you don`t really know how it is at the time;-however,I hope people are more concerned about the survival/rescuer aspects than about the f****ng a/c-the`yre expendable,people are not!!
@ sycamore
you can find the most aspects, problems and opinions about such operations in the thread " Technique and experience for mountain rescue " from 24.04.02
Anyway there will be a lot of different and critical views on such rescue flights. We can try as hard as possible, but 100% safety isn't to get and we have much more rescued lifes than lost rescuers. We can be proud, that we have a lot of collegues (pilots, rescuers, paramedics and ..., ... ) all over the world, ready to risk their lifes for other people.
you can find the most aspects, problems and opinions about such operations in the thread " Technique and experience for mountain rescue " from 24.04.02
Anyway there will be a lot of different and critical views on such rescue flights. We can try as hard as possible, but 100% safety isn't to get and we have much more rescued lifes than lost rescuers. We can be proud, that we have a lot of collegues (pilots, rescuers, paramedics and ..., ... ) all over the world, ready to risk their lifes for other people.