Pilot Brits abroad: Why not come back to the UK?
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If all the Brits who go abroad to HAI/ SA/ NZ or Oz were to return overnight the job market would crumble, stock markets would crash, France would invade Britain, and nuclear war would be inevitable, Armageddon would not be far off.l
Pilots undercutting fellow pilots to the point were flying for food would seem like the dream.
JAA is a blessing, and shouldn't be constantly mocked on here by those who havn't done it!!
Pilots undercutting fellow pilots to the point were flying for food would seem like the dream.
JAA is a blessing, and shouldn't be constantly mocked on here by those who havn't done it!!
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Originally Posted by autosync
Pilots undercutting fellow pilots to the point were flying for food would seem like the dream.
JAA is a blessing, and shouldn't be constantly mocked on here by those who havn't done it!!
JAA is a blessing, and shouldn't be constantly mocked on here by those who havn't done it!!
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The truth is, for British heli pilots, there are more players than tables. The CAA with their over the top regulation, halts investment, thus culling piloting oppotunities. The CAA makes a mint from the exam system. The FAA is funded by taxation. The CAA is its own master and provides some pretty good jobs for its employees. If you want to do something interesting in a helicopter and not suffer the usual crappy attitudes found in the UK, then you have to get yourself abroad. So what, the pay aint as good, but there's no pockets in a shroud !
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The reasons why I'm not returning to my JAA-compliant place of birth:
Which is why British helicopter manufacturers are supplying the world with aircraft, British flight schools are inundated with foreign students clamouring to be trained under JARs, and the rest of the world is looking to JAA as a model of how civil aviation should be regulated, I suppose.
- Bad weather
- Exorbitant taxes
- Naff rules
- Public antipathy bordering on hatred of helicopters and those who fly them
JAA is a blessing, and shouldn't be constantly mocked on here by those who havn't done it!!
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Italian and French manufacturers seem to be doing fine with it; the Agusta Westland EH101 is doing well also
You can’t blame JAR for high fuel and insurance costs.
You don't get a JAR license by sending off a stamped addressed envelope like you can in other countries you have to work hard for it, its a professional qualification, and not something that you can "bang out" in a summer off (Now I know this is going to wind up pilots from other countries, but screw it, that’s the way it is, and that’s what keeps us in a job)
People love to come on here and complain about how difficult it is to get the JAR license but don’t complain about the decent wages that they can expect.
And that all comes down to Supply and demand, if the thousands of HAI grads came flooding back, what do you think would happen to these wages?
All the time here, we hear the tired old "It’s not fair" line...
It is fair... Its simple, you put the work in you get the license...
What’s not fair about that?
Who knows you may even learn something new, that may make you a slightly better pilot, I know that i did.
What would be unfair is if they change the rules to accommodate the whiners and the big business who would love nothing more then to bring people in who would work for a lot less.
Now how would that be fair to the people who have jumped through all of the hoops?
Some rules are silly, but at the end of the day most of them are safety related, and every Authority is guilty of that to some extent.
You can’t blame JAR for high fuel and insurance costs.
You don't get a JAR license by sending off a stamped addressed envelope like you can in other countries you have to work hard for it, its a professional qualification, and not something that you can "bang out" in a summer off (Now I know this is going to wind up pilots from other countries, but screw it, that’s the way it is, and that’s what keeps us in a job)
People love to come on here and complain about how difficult it is to get the JAR license but don’t complain about the decent wages that they can expect.
And that all comes down to Supply and demand, if the thousands of HAI grads came flooding back, what do you think would happen to these wages?
All the time here, we hear the tired old "It’s not fair" line...
It is fair... Its simple, you put the work in you get the license...
What’s not fair about that?
Who knows you may even learn something new, that may make you a slightly better pilot, I know that i did.
What would be unfair is if they change the rules to accommodate the whiners and the big business who would love nothing more then to bring people in who would work for a lot less.
Now how would that be fair to the people who have jumped through all of the hoops?
Some rules are silly, but at the end of the day most of them are safety related, and every Authority is guilty of that to some extent.
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You don't get a JAR license by sending off a stamped addressed envelope like you can in other countries you have to work hard for it
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It hasn't got anything to do with JAA or not. It's just different in Europe in general.
The market is basically closed, it's who you know and not what you know.
On the other hand, for various reasons you fly a lot less in Europe than say the USA. Yes, the pay is much better but the cost of living is also very high.
The way of living is different, for me the standard is just higher here. So I like the UK. Glad to be here.
The market is basically closed, it's who you know and not what you know.
On the other hand, for various reasons you fly a lot less in Europe than say the USA. Yes, the pay is much better but the cost of living is also very high.
The way of living is different, for me the standard is just higher here. So I like the UK. Glad to be here.
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UK Pilots jobs
Just another slant....
New CPL graduates with 200 hours as we all know have to be very lucky to find jobs, so anyone with a J1 Visa, i would suggest you use it. There is also the other question about what type of flying goes on in the UK..?
Well, there is the OffShore option and there is the VIP market. Police and EMS (Which is another niche market) with little utility flying jobs. All of these require a few hours under the belt, which the new graduate is unlikely to get into, unless they have golden balls.
The remaining shortfall is fed by the ex-military chaps with the experience and therefore makes it hard for the new graduate to be lured back and remain within the UK market.
A definate supply and demand situation withe the old chicken and egg scenario going on. Lets not get sucked into the old JAR argument of who has the hardest exams etc..
As he stands back and waits...
MD
New CPL graduates with 200 hours as we all know have to be very lucky to find jobs, so anyone with a J1 Visa, i would suggest you use it. There is also the other question about what type of flying goes on in the UK..?
Well, there is the OffShore option and there is the VIP market. Police and EMS (Which is another niche market) with little utility flying jobs. All of these require a few hours under the belt, which the new graduate is unlikely to get into, unless they have golden balls.
The remaining shortfall is fed by the ex-military chaps with the experience and therefore makes it hard for the new graduate to be lured back and remain within the UK market.
A definate supply and demand situation withe the old chicken and egg scenario going on. Lets not get sucked into the old JAR argument of who has the hardest exams etc..
As he stands back and waits...
MD
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Originally Posted by Heliport
So in which countries do you claim you can get a licence 'by sending off a stamped addressed envelope' (or similar)??
User freindly, maybe, but not fair on the guy whos job you may be taking
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Assuming what you say is correct -
If someone has qualified for an ICAO licence, what do you say is wrong with the FAA recognising that qualification and issuing an FAA licence on the strength of it?
Do you think licensing requirements should be used to protect jobs? (Or should that be the role of some other government department?)
If someone has qualified for an ICAO licence, what do you say is wrong with the FAA recognising that qualification and issuing an FAA licence on the strength of it?
Do you think licensing requirements should be used to protect jobs? (Or should that be the role of some other government department?)
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Originally Posted by Heliport
If someone has qualified for an ICAO licence, what do you say is wrong with the FAA recognising that qualification and issuing an FAA licence on the strength of it?
Do you think licensing requirements should be used to protect jobs? (Or should that be the role of some other government department?)
Do you think licensing requirements should be used to protect jobs? (Or should that be the role of some other government department?)
It’s not a cartel, it’s a professional standard.
It may not necessarily make you better at flying the machine then a guy with thousands of hours long lining or gold seal instructor etc etc.
But why should standards be changed to accommodate those people those who wish to work in a different jurisdiction? Or the large companies hoping to get cheaper labour?
It keeps the playing field level.
And besides to the best of my knowledge there is no other government department that can legally prevent someone with all of the right paperwork from working in a country.
So licensing is the only way of the industry legally policing itself.
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Ok…. I’m not really a Limey, but got a Limey passport as well as Yank and Frog…So technically I’m a Limey/Frog /Yank or vice versa? I live in Paris and my kids won’t speak English unless I beat them into it.
I’m married to a frog, whose half frog and half wop (Sicilian) but more frog than wop because she was born and raised in Paris. After her half wop, half frog parents moved to Paris is 1950…
When my wop/frog ‘in laws’ arrived in France. A job was hard to come by for father-in law, because the Frog/Frogs in Marseilles said “ Your not Frog” to which my father-in –law replied, “ here’s my Frog passport” you stupid Frog ****…or something similar….
Having been raised in a frog Private school in Tunis, Father-in-law was and is, in his dotage. More frog than General De Gaulle….. Although with a distinct Sicilian accent.
My brother-in law is a Wop/Wop (Napoli) married to my wife’s sister, who’s a Wop/Frog but more wop than frog…I can’t tell you why, just don’t know! She has also spent her entire life in Paris, but only speaks French if no one is around who speaks Italian.
So my other sister-in-law is frog/frog who denies (more or less) her wop heritage…she’s my wife’s second oldest sister, and is a civil servant in Paris.
She’s killed two husbands already…
Ok; my wife say’s its just bad luck. And she hasn’t killed them, just outlived them…
Ok, but she’s only 40 years old and outlived
Two husbands!
Anyway, she’s fixing to marry a guy from Normandy (first error), who’s half Dutch (second error) but was born in France. When he speaks Dutch, he has a French accent, that’s how Dutch he is…
Anyway, we’re having a get-together a few months back, in our place in the country.
Which is actually just out of Paris, but could be medieval France.
Now, I worked in West Berlin when it was West Berlin, and not just Berlin. So I’ve invited 3 friends from W. Berlin days, to come down as well.
So here we are, in our mini ranchette just east of Senlis…
B-B-Q is just waning to the perfect temperature, steaks have been marinading for three days in a mix I picked up in Silver City, NM. A few years ago (region 23,Initial attack and Rap crew for Geo Seis)
My wife comes over and say’s…”Gotta change the seating”…
What she actually said was “X… ne peut pas se reposer à côté de… Y
X being my sister-in-law, Y being my brother-in-law to be..
Why’ I ask?
She says…” Sister-in-law won’t sit next to the protestant…
Who’s the fu**ing protestant I ask…?
The Dutchy…
What Dutchy?
The Dutchy who’s going to marry my sister!
He was born in France for crying out loud; He’s as French as you are!
I’m not French! ………..
What do you mean you’re not French? We have two kids and they’re French….
No they’re not. They’re half French and half American but I’m Italian….
Whaddya mean you’re Italian…if you’re Italian and I’m American, how can we have two French kids???
Well here’s error number one for the day… I’m supposed to know that my French wife is now Italian, my sister-in-law won’t sit next to a protestant because they’re boring and cold, and no-one really wants to talk with my friends from Berlin because they have bad accents and they bombed Uncle Thierry’s place in Drancy in 1940
(Thierry’s place was a farm on the outskirts of Paris; it’d be worth nine gazillion bucks if he still had it today)
It turns out the protestants don’t know how to have fun, and if you get stuck next to one in a party, it’s all downhill from there!
The Dutch are more or less Germans who won’t fess up, and the guys we’ve hired in to do the catering are really not French but Swiss German with French names and therefore have no idea how to cook….Why?…..
Because they have German accents!
There should be a law against people pretending to be French…. Just because their family name sounds French…If we wanted watches or chocolate OK, But cooking?
This is the reason no sane person returns to Europe…
Because it doesn’t exist!!!!
All we have are a bunch of countries with disparate views on just about everything…. and some genius thought it would be a good idea to call it Europe! And while we’re at it! Let’s create a union among the various states and call it JAA.
The choices for driving forces within this new union should be some state or states, with nothing else going for them…Let’s pick the Netherlands and the UK…
No one speaks Dutch, which is the only thing you can say against the Dutch….
And no one cares about England, least of all the Brits!
Although, to be fair, most people like the Irish, Scots and Welsh.
It’s just the English no one really cares for….
As a breed, they’re convinced of moral, literal and practical superiority, and they play the game as no one else in Europe, they actually think UK aviation has an impact on the world aviation scene… And that somehow this tiny forgotten island, has a superior import than, shall we say Finland, which I would choose as a far superior aviation nation than poor old blighty…Having flown in both….
What you have in the UK, in basic form, is a bunch of people desperately trying to keep alive an untenable industry. It’s sad, and ‘in extremis’ but will survive because the stalwarts really believe, truly believe!, that their little world of private site to private site IS helicopter aviation.
The guys within the CAA have never seen helicopter aviation at it’s finest…These guys have never experienced the joys of working Rocket City, WY in the late seventies, 2D seismic…They wouldn’t let one eyed Phil fly here. Claiming having only one eye would be against the public interest…
Oh Yeah… Lets compare the CAA guys and their real worl knowledge to One eyed Phil, Danny B,. Jimmy C, Skip F, Mark F….
You deadbeats within the CAA haven’t lost the plot…you never saw the fu**ing plot. I don’t have the answers because I can’t isolate the problems within the CAA....
I’m too far away from the epicenter….
And I would be ashamed to get any closer….
I can’t and don’t want to imply that I speak for everyone, just for me. But I have to say for myself. That you’re the saddest bastards I’ve ever heard of!
I’m married to a frog, whose half frog and half wop (Sicilian) but more frog than wop because she was born and raised in Paris. After her half wop, half frog parents moved to Paris is 1950…
When my wop/frog ‘in laws’ arrived in France. A job was hard to come by for father-in law, because the Frog/Frogs in Marseilles said “ Your not Frog” to which my father-in –law replied, “ here’s my Frog passport” you stupid Frog ****…or something similar….
Having been raised in a frog Private school in Tunis, Father-in-law was and is, in his dotage. More frog than General De Gaulle….. Although with a distinct Sicilian accent.
My brother-in law is a Wop/Wop (Napoli) married to my wife’s sister, who’s a Wop/Frog but more wop than frog…I can’t tell you why, just don’t know! She has also spent her entire life in Paris, but only speaks French if no one is around who speaks Italian.
So my other sister-in-law is frog/frog who denies (more or less) her wop heritage…she’s my wife’s second oldest sister, and is a civil servant in Paris.
She’s killed two husbands already…
Ok; my wife say’s its just bad luck. And she hasn’t killed them, just outlived them…
Ok, but she’s only 40 years old and outlived
Two husbands!
Anyway, she’s fixing to marry a guy from Normandy (first error), who’s half Dutch (second error) but was born in France. When he speaks Dutch, he has a French accent, that’s how Dutch he is…
Anyway, we’re having a get-together a few months back, in our place in the country.
Which is actually just out of Paris, but could be medieval France.
Now, I worked in West Berlin when it was West Berlin, and not just Berlin. So I’ve invited 3 friends from W. Berlin days, to come down as well.
So here we are, in our mini ranchette just east of Senlis…
B-B-Q is just waning to the perfect temperature, steaks have been marinading for three days in a mix I picked up in Silver City, NM. A few years ago (region 23,Initial attack and Rap crew for Geo Seis)
My wife comes over and say’s…”Gotta change the seating”…
What she actually said was “X… ne peut pas se reposer à côté de… Y
X being my sister-in-law, Y being my brother-in-law to be..
Why’ I ask?
She says…” Sister-in-law won’t sit next to the protestant…
Who’s the fu**ing protestant I ask…?
The Dutchy…
What Dutchy?
The Dutchy who’s going to marry my sister!
He was born in France for crying out loud; He’s as French as you are!
I’m not French! ………..
What do you mean you’re not French? We have two kids and they’re French….
No they’re not. They’re half French and half American but I’m Italian….
Whaddya mean you’re Italian…if you’re Italian and I’m American, how can we have two French kids???
Well here’s error number one for the day… I’m supposed to know that my French wife is now Italian, my sister-in-law won’t sit next to a protestant because they’re boring and cold, and no-one really wants to talk with my friends from Berlin because they have bad accents and they bombed Uncle Thierry’s place in Drancy in 1940
(Thierry’s place was a farm on the outskirts of Paris; it’d be worth nine gazillion bucks if he still had it today)
It turns out the protestants don’t know how to have fun, and if you get stuck next to one in a party, it’s all downhill from there!
The Dutch are more or less Germans who won’t fess up, and the guys we’ve hired in to do the catering are really not French but Swiss German with French names and therefore have no idea how to cook….Why?…..
Because they have German accents!
There should be a law against people pretending to be French…. Just because their family name sounds French…If we wanted watches or chocolate OK, But cooking?
This is the reason no sane person returns to Europe…
Because it doesn’t exist!!!!
All we have are a bunch of countries with disparate views on just about everything…. and some genius thought it would be a good idea to call it Europe! And while we’re at it! Let’s create a union among the various states and call it JAA.
The choices for driving forces within this new union should be some state or states, with nothing else going for them…Let’s pick the Netherlands and the UK…
No one speaks Dutch, which is the only thing you can say against the Dutch….
And no one cares about England, least of all the Brits!
Although, to be fair, most people like the Irish, Scots and Welsh.
It’s just the English no one really cares for….
As a breed, they’re convinced of moral, literal and practical superiority, and they play the game as no one else in Europe, they actually think UK aviation has an impact on the world aviation scene… And that somehow this tiny forgotten island, has a superior import than, shall we say Finland, which I would choose as a far superior aviation nation than poor old blighty…Having flown in both….
What you have in the UK, in basic form, is a bunch of people desperately trying to keep alive an untenable industry. It’s sad, and ‘in extremis’ but will survive because the stalwarts really believe, truly believe!, that their little world of private site to private site IS helicopter aviation.
The guys within the CAA have never seen helicopter aviation at it’s finest…These guys have never experienced the joys of working Rocket City, WY in the late seventies, 2D seismic…They wouldn’t let one eyed Phil fly here. Claiming having only one eye would be against the public interest…
Oh Yeah… Lets compare the CAA guys and their real worl knowledge to One eyed Phil, Danny B,. Jimmy C, Skip F, Mark F….
You deadbeats within the CAA haven’t lost the plot…you never saw the fu**ing plot. I don’t have the answers because I can’t isolate the problems within the CAA....
I’m too far away from the epicenter….
And I would be ashamed to get any closer….
I can’t and don’t want to imply that I speak for everyone, just for me. But I have to say for myself. That you’re the saddest bastards I’ve ever heard of!
Last edited by 170'; 28th Mar 2006 at 07:48.
Autosync,
Come on out into the middle of the street.....stand your ground...I am calling you out.
Name these countries where you can mail in a boxtop and get an ATPL....just one will do.
You might be able to get a PPL based upon the JAR license in the USA but it will still reference the JAA license and require the same limitations and privileges.
I listened to this crap when I worked in the UK.....and usually waited for some pompous ass to carry on long enough about the FAA system and the caliber of FAA pilots....before I informed him that I had both....and unless he had the same....he was talking out his ass.
Is that the case here?
Justifying the JAA licensing system by using it as one very large, complex, damned expensive hurdle that has to be gotten over in order to earn a living flying a helicopter is utter tripe in my book.
It is not the price of fuel that is killing aviation in the UK....it is user fees, license fees, exam fees, medical fees, landing fees, airways fees, fees fees, and more fees. It is the insurance regulations that killed the B-17 from flying and nothing else.
How many airfields are car factories, raceways, and vacant rotting expanses of concrete and macadam these days? How many closed last year? How many will close this year? How many operators are going out of business? How many folks are moving to foreign registrations to avoid the unnecessary expense of the UK/JAA system?
What keeps you in a job is the demand for aviation services....when you price/regulate yourself out of the market....you will no longer be in demand and thus might find yourself wondering what happened when the doors at your place slam shut and you find yourself on the dole.
Come on out into the middle of the street.....stand your ground...I am calling you out.
You don't get a JAR license by sending off a stamped addressed envelope like you can in other countries you have to work hard for it, its a professional qualification, and not something that you can "bang out" in a summer off (Now I know this is going to wind up pilots from other countries, but screw it, that’s the way it is, and that’s what keeps us in a job)
You might be able to get a PPL based upon the JAR license in the USA but it will still reference the JAA license and require the same limitations and privileges.
I listened to this crap when I worked in the UK.....and usually waited for some pompous ass to carry on long enough about the FAA system and the caliber of FAA pilots....before I informed him that I had both....and unless he had the same....he was talking out his ass.
Is that the case here?
Justifying the JAA licensing system by using it as one very large, complex, damned expensive hurdle that has to be gotten over in order to earn a living flying a helicopter is utter tripe in my book.
It is not the price of fuel that is killing aviation in the UK....it is user fees, license fees, exam fees, medical fees, landing fees, airways fees, fees fees, and more fees. It is the insurance regulations that killed the B-17 from flying and nothing else.
How many airfields are car factories, raceways, and vacant rotting expanses of concrete and macadam these days? How many closed last year? How many will close this year? How many operators are going out of business? How many folks are moving to foreign registrations to avoid the unnecessary expense of the UK/JAA system?
What keeps you in a job is the demand for aviation services....when you price/regulate yourself out of the market....you will no longer be in demand and thus might find yourself wondering what happened when the doors at your place slam shut and you find yourself on the dole.
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Ok 170, you don’t like the English, or the Europeans thats your prerogative, nothing wrong with that, but the CAA is not the JAA.
If you feel inferior by their perceived superiority that’s just too bad.
My personal gripe is whinging Aussies, hopefully the chip will fall off both our shoulders some day!!
SASless...
As for you.... I would nearly have a bit of respect for your post if you deleted the cowboy routine..
Fighting on the internet is like winning a medal in the Special Olympics... you may feel like you won.......... But at the end of the day you are still handicapped!
But that aside, in answer to some of your questions,
Yes their are landing charges, airport fees, license fees, exam fees, medical fees expensive fuel and all sorts of other fees.
That’s one of the problems with living in countries small insize with small populations and economies, governments cannot afford to fund an industry in the same way that the FAA can subsidies the US industry, its a pleasure to fly in the US, but its not going to happen in Europe, because these economies just cannot afford to work that way, so its left to the user, which is unfortunate for the person paying the bill.
Land is also at a premium, and massive sums are being paid by developers to rezone the land, which is worth far more as a housing estate then as an airfield.
To convert a CPL/ATPL licence to FAA I would just have to sit down for a couple of days and study the small question bank and sit the written test at any time of my choosing then do a flight test for about an hour and a half.
Yes it is user friendly and painfree cheap and fast but there is a massive massive government funded support network that is not available in JAR land because as said before, the local governments just cannot afford that!
And thats the way it is, so if you want to fly in Europe, just jump through the hoops and stop crying. If your not willing to jump through the hoops, then stop crying!
Basically..... Shut the F*** up with all the whinging!
If you feel inferior by their perceived superiority that’s just too bad.
My personal gripe is whinging Aussies, hopefully the chip will fall off both our shoulders some day!!
SASless...
As for you.... I would nearly have a bit of respect for your post if you deleted the cowboy routine..
Fighting on the internet is like winning a medal in the Special Olympics... you may feel like you won.......... But at the end of the day you are still handicapped!
But that aside, in answer to some of your questions,
Yes their are landing charges, airport fees, license fees, exam fees, medical fees expensive fuel and all sorts of other fees.
That’s one of the problems with living in countries small insize with small populations and economies, governments cannot afford to fund an industry in the same way that the FAA can subsidies the US industry, its a pleasure to fly in the US, but its not going to happen in Europe, because these economies just cannot afford to work that way, so its left to the user, which is unfortunate for the person paying the bill.
Land is also at a premium, and massive sums are being paid by developers to rezone the land, which is worth far more as a housing estate then as an airfield.
To convert a CPL/ATPL licence to FAA I would just have to sit down for a couple of days and study the small question bank and sit the written test at any time of my choosing then do a flight test for about an hour and a half.
Yes it is user friendly and painfree cheap and fast but there is a massive massive government funded support network that is not available in JAR land because as said before, the local governments just cannot afford that!
And thats the way it is, so if you want to fly in Europe, just jump through the hoops and stop crying. If your not willing to jump through the hoops, then stop crying!
Basically..... Shut the F*** up with all the whinging!
Last edited by autosync; 28th Mar 2006 at 00:16.
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Autosync - I think you need a little more research. I've not been through the FAA system, but I have been through the Canadian one, which is similar enough to enable me to say that the hour and a half flight test actually takes most of the day and you won't get airborne until you've sat with the examiner for a few hours going through the regs, etc - it is a lot more searching than answering exam questions. At least, that's what it should be - what individual examiners do may be different.
In principle, issuing the questions is just the same as issuing a syllabus - "these are the areas we want you to know about - now go study".
I heard all that stuff about how "superior" the European system is 40 years ago, but it sure ain't practical.
As one who is currently putting a JAA CPLH course through for approval, I can say that around 35% of the syllabus is completely irrelevant for modern-day flying however useful it might have been 100 years ago in the jungle where you maybe did have to repair your own radio (170' has it dead right). In fact, many of the questions are what you would find on an engineer's exam in any other country.
The answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Phil
In principle, issuing the questions is just the same as issuing a syllabus - "these are the areas we want you to know about - now go study".
I heard all that stuff about how "superior" the European system is 40 years ago, but it sure ain't practical.
As one who is currently putting a JAA CPLH course through for approval, I can say that around 35% of the syllabus is completely irrelevant for modern-day flying however useful it might have been 100 years ago in the jungle where you maybe did have to repair your own radio (170' has it dead right). In fact, many of the questions are what you would find on an engineer's exam in any other country.
The answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Phil
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Hi guys,
All I can say is this thread is priceless. The idea that somehow the Poms have a monopoly on world standards because their exams are less "accessible" for a variety of reasons, especially in terms of cost and time involved, is clearly ridiculous. But hey, whatever cranks your tractor...
Unfortunately, the British (or should that be the English) have an unfortunate reputation for being somewhat pompous and stuffy when it comes to things such as "standards". Whilst there may be an element of truth to this, I'm sure the majority of operators there are not actually like that. Auto appears to not to be one of them and so creates the illusion that all those working in the UK subscribe to his conservative viewpoints (to which he is entirely within his rights to air publicly).
I am in the interesting situation in that I work for a British organisation but live and work in Australia. As such, we are required to travel to the UK once every two years for recurrency training and all our AS332L command upgrades are done in the UK to their "exacting" standards. My take on the whole thing from my time in the UK with work is:
1. The standards there are very high but no higher than those in Australia or indeed the US (we send our S76 people to Florida for their respective ongoing training and upgrades).
2. The operators I have dealt with (face to face) all appeared to be reasonable people who didn't profess to have a monopoly on world standards.
3. Operators in the UK think the JAA system is unecessarily complex, expensive etc.
4. They all want to live and work in Australia but be on UK wages.
Ah, there's the rub. With all the costs of getting qualified in the UK, just about the only place you could repay all your loans would be as an offshore pilot on the North Sea. I would imagine this would be a big turn off for UK trained aircrew to work elsewhere. Are they pricing themselves out of other markets with the exorbitant costs of training in the UK?
Perhaps then, Auto has a point in that only so many people will go to the trouble and expense of jumping through all the hoops in order to work in the UK, in the hope that it will eventually pay off. For the rest of us, I'm not sure why we'd bother, much less be concerned about it. It's a big world out there and the UK is only a very small part of it.
P68
(half Aussie/half Pom but no Wop, Seppo, Frog etc)
All I can say is this thread is priceless. The idea that somehow the Poms have a monopoly on world standards because their exams are less "accessible" for a variety of reasons, especially in terms of cost and time involved, is clearly ridiculous. But hey, whatever cranks your tractor...
Unfortunately, the British (or should that be the English) have an unfortunate reputation for being somewhat pompous and stuffy when it comes to things such as "standards". Whilst there may be an element of truth to this, I'm sure the majority of operators there are not actually like that. Auto appears to not to be one of them and so creates the illusion that all those working in the UK subscribe to his conservative viewpoints (to which he is entirely within his rights to air publicly).
I am in the interesting situation in that I work for a British organisation but live and work in Australia. As such, we are required to travel to the UK once every two years for recurrency training and all our AS332L command upgrades are done in the UK to their "exacting" standards. My take on the whole thing from my time in the UK with work is:
1. The standards there are very high but no higher than those in Australia or indeed the US (we send our S76 people to Florida for their respective ongoing training and upgrades).
2. The operators I have dealt with (face to face) all appeared to be reasonable people who didn't profess to have a monopoly on world standards.
3. Operators in the UK think the JAA system is unecessarily complex, expensive etc.
4. They all want to live and work in Australia but be on UK wages.
Ah, there's the rub. With all the costs of getting qualified in the UK, just about the only place you could repay all your loans would be as an offshore pilot on the North Sea. I would imagine this would be a big turn off for UK trained aircrew to work elsewhere. Are they pricing themselves out of other markets with the exorbitant costs of training in the UK?
Perhaps then, Auto has a point in that only so many people will go to the trouble and expense of jumping through all the hoops in order to work in the UK, in the hope that it will eventually pay off. For the rest of us, I'm not sure why we'd bother, much less be concerned about it. It's a big world out there and the UK is only a very small part of it.
P68
(half Aussie/half Pom but no Wop, Seppo, Frog etc)
Join Date: Jul 2003
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I don't have a problem with the JAA examination system, except for the fact that from what you read in some of the threads that it does little to nothing in educating pilots.
The lack of basic knowledge in aerodynamics and performance that is shown by european pilots, especially the English, after they have sat all of these examinations makes you wonder why they have them in the first place.
If the end result of this tiresome JAA system was a group of walking talking helicopter encyclopaedia pilots we could turn to for the good oil on helicopter operations we could all bow to the system but when you have the embarrassment of techincal questions posed on some threads by european (read English) instructors you can only cringe in disbelief and wonder how they ever achieved the qualification.
Autosync is obviously winding us up.
The lack of basic knowledge in aerodynamics and performance that is shown by european pilots, especially the English, after they have sat all of these examinations makes you wonder why they have them in the first place.
If the end result of this tiresome JAA system was a group of walking talking helicopter encyclopaedia pilots we could turn to for the good oil on helicopter operations we could all bow to the system but when you have the embarrassment of techincal questions posed on some threads by european (read English) instructors you can only cringe in disbelief and wonder how they ever achieved the qualification.
Autosync is obviously winding us up.
Guest
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Mmm... this is interesting. Having worked in the heli industry in the UK and the USA I will offer my viewpoints.
The main reason people train abroad, and let's assume we're talking about mostly HAI J1 people, is COST. If it were the same price as the UK people would stay in the UK. Why spend 50 grand to be able to fly as a job, when you can spend 30 grand?
I think what happens is people go train/work abroad and they simply can't afford to spend a further 10 grand getting JAA qualified/taking 6 months off work, especially when the JAA exams seem so irrelevant. Or the UK weather puts them off.
And... I think the opportunities for heli flying are more abroad. All the UK really has is R22 instruction (people soon tire of doing that), a bit of charter work, and the north sea. Most of the police/HEMs jobs are taken by ex-military types. Abroad you have the GOM/powerline patrol/utility work/fire fighting/more EMS/ etc...
I personally am doing the J1 thing, but I am heading back to the UK because I want to live "at home" and work in the UK long-term. I dont want to spend a further 10 grand, that I dont have, but I knew what I was getting in for at the start of this.
Although the JAA exams are over-the-top, they are at least keeping out the hoards abroad who are waiting for the hoops to get easier, so they can return. ie more opportunities for people in the UK.
As far as FAA licences being "easy" that depends on the school. I expect high standards from my CPL students, just as I will under JAA. Although not all FAA schools do the same.
Flying in the UK is very much the preserve of the middle-classes/military (like messing around with boats and horses). In the USA it's more accessible and the "average joe" can do it, because the US government funds most of it.
It's no doubt easier to succeed as a pilot in the USA. Qualify at 200 hours, teach until 1000, then off to the GOM/Alaska/Grand Canyon, get turbine time, the move on from there. No such 'easy' route exists in the UK. I know very capable instructors in the UK who are still spending most of their time teaching on robbies after 1,500 hours.
The main reason people train abroad, and let's assume we're talking about mostly HAI J1 people, is COST. If it were the same price as the UK people would stay in the UK. Why spend 50 grand to be able to fly as a job, when you can spend 30 grand?
I think what happens is people go train/work abroad and they simply can't afford to spend a further 10 grand getting JAA qualified/taking 6 months off work, especially when the JAA exams seem so irrelevant. Or the UK weather puts them off.
And... I think the opportunities for heli flying are more abroad. All the UK really has is R22 instruction (people soon tire of doing that), a bit of charter work, and the north sea. Most of the police/HEMs jobs are taken by ex-military types. Abroad you have the GOM/powerline patrol/utility work/fire fighting/more EMS/ etc...
I personally am doing the J1 thing, but I am heading back to the UK because I want to live "at home" and work in the UK long-term. I dont want to spend a further 10 grand, that I dont have, but I knew what I was getting in for at the start of this.
Although the JAA exams are over-the-top, they are at least keeping out the hoards abroad who are waiting for the hoops to get easier, so they can return. ie more opportunities for people in the UK.
As far as FAA licences being "easy" that depends on the school. I expect high standards from my CPL students, just as I will under JAA. Although not all FAA schools do the same.
Flying in the UK is very much the preserve of the middle-classes/military (like messing around with boats and horses). In the USA it's more accessible and the "average joe" can do it, because the US government funds most of it.
It's no doubt easier to succeed as a pilot in the USA. Qualify at 200 hours, teach until 1000, then off to the GOM/Alaska/Grand Canyon, get turbine time, the move on from there. No such 'easy' route exists in the UK. I know very capable instructors in the UK who are still spending most of their time teaching on robbies after 1,500 hours.
Quote Autosync 'That’s one of the problems with living in countries small insize with small populations and economies, governments cannot afford to fund an industry in the same way that the FAA can subsidies the US industry, its a pleasure to fly in the US, but its not going to happen in Europe, because these economies just cannot afford to work that way, so its left to the user, which is unfortunate for the person paying the bill.'
Sombody quickly hide this thread before we end up with user pays in Aust & Kiwiland and we all go broke!
Sombody quickly hide this thread before we end up with user pays in Aust & Kiwiland and we all go broke!