Banner Towing
Join Date: Apr 2002
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thanks Cross-eyed, that's exactly what I want... information! I did follow the link mentioned above and the pictures are quite impressive, but I want to know what is involved and how is it put on the licence!
I have asked the "authorities-that-be" here in Germany, i.e. the LBA, but they are squirming around about it (I think they realised that something was forgotten during the transition to JAR-FCL oooops) so they are no help at all! Yet there are heli ops that are doing it here I'm sure, I just haven't found yet who and where. So, I would like to know what the "experts" at pprune feel about it and their experiences with it!
OK guys.. give a gal some support here
Westy
I have asked the "authorities-that-be" here in Germany, i.e. the LBA, but they are squirming around about it (I think they realised that something was forgotten during the transition to JAR-FCL oooops) so they are no help at all! Yet there are heli ops that are doing it here I'm sure, I just haven't found yet who and where. So, I would like to know what the "experts" at pprune feel about it and their experiences with it!
OK guys.. give a gal some support here
Westy
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Banner (Underslung)
My understanding is a little less than that of Rod or the guys at Cabair however it, I believe, is a little like this...
The cable which supports the flag is hooked to the hooking system on an AS355 (in the UK). The aircraft has pilot and crewmand on board, the crewman I believe is for manual release of the load and to guide the pilot when landing and taking off.
The flag is weighted by sand and in an emergency upon auto or manual release of the flag the weight is dispersed into the air and the flag floats (possibly with a form of parachute) to the ground.
It was quite a lengthy and costly exercise to get the approvals from the UK CAA, however as most can see from the photos etc they are quite impressive when airborne.
The cable which supports the flag is hooked to the hooking system on an AS355 (in the UK). The aircraft has pilot and crewmand on board, the crewman I believe is for manual release of the load and to guide the pilot when landing and taking off.
The flag is weighted by sand and in an emergency upon auto or manual release of the flag the weight is dispersed into the air and the flag floats (possibly with a form of parachute) to the ground.
It was quite a lengthy and costly exercise to get the approvals from the UK CAA, however as most can see from the photos etc they are quite impressive when airborne.
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Just a warning to those of you intending to tow banners.
I have towed banners a couple of times this year for about 40 hours, and I had a bad experience recently at Long Beach, Ca towing a banner.
Firstly, there are 2 types of system out there that I have come across, the first one involves a large sand bag at the bottom of the line with the banner just above it and the second involves the banner behind the helo on about a 400' to 600' line depending on the size of the banner you are towing. The second one is the one I have experience in.
I was on my last tow of the weekend and on pick up the banner didn't open properly; it folded and didn't open and was doing a slow roll. After trying to get it to open by increasing speed slightly I opted to return to the airport to drop it off and start again. At this point there was nothing wrong with the load; it's basically a sling load weighing about 200lbs so it should theoretically stay below me at the speed of 30kts. I was using a mirror to see what the banner was doing at the time but once the rope was along the aircraft belly I had to be careful how I flew the helo as I couldn't see the banner anymore. On my final approach to drop off the banner at 300', the load stopped rolling and turned in to a foil and flew like a para-glider (eyewitness accounts as I can't see the banner).
As the banner flew up it took out my tail rotor and pulled it from the aircraft ( it was found about 150' from the crash site ). I can't remember the last 15 seconds of the flight but I was conscious throughout the whole ordeal and survived the crash.
The reason I didn't punch off the banner in the beginning was that I was working between 3 active runways at the time, the load wasn't a problem, it was just a regular sling load and there were no emergency procedures for a banner that doesn't open... guess it never happened before.
So if you do fly the system where you have to do a slight forward movement on take off, PUNCH OFF THE BANNER IF IT DOESN'T OPEN UP WITH IN THE FIRST 200' AND TELL THE TOWER.
If I had known then what I know now that is what I would have done regardless of what the banner company would have said.
This isn't to scare people off of doing a job, but I won't be flying banners again, not worth it. When we flew them we had one person onboard using a mirror and from the state of the aircraft I’m glad I was the only one.
I have pictures of the crash but not sure if I can post them on here...first time post.
Be safe and be careful.
I have towed banners a couple of times this year for about 40 hours, and I had a bad experience recently at Long Beach, Ca towing a banner.
Firstly, there are 2 types of system out there that I have come across, the first one involves a large sand bag at the bottom of the line with the banner just above it and the second involves the banner behind the helo on about a 400' to 600' line depending on the size of the banner you are towing. The second one is the one I have experience in.
I was on my last tow of the weekend and on pick up the banner didn't open properly; it folded and didn't open and was doing a slow roll. After trying to get it to open by increasing speed slightly I opted to return to the airport to drop it off and start again. At this point there was nothing wrong with the load; it's basically a sling load weighing about 200lbs so it should theoretically stay below me at the speed of 30kts. I was using a mirror to see what the banner was doing at the time but once the rope was along the aircraft belly I had to be careful how I flew the helo as I couldn't see the banner anymore. On my final approach to drop off the banner at 300', the load stopped rolling and turned in to a foil and flew like a para-glider (eyewitness accounts as I can't see the banner).
As the banner flew up it took out my tail rotor and pulled it from the aircraft ( it was found about 150' from the crash site ). I can't remember the last 15 seconds of the flight but I was conscious throughout the whole ordeal and survived the crash.
The reason I didn't punch off the banner in the beginning was that I was working between 3 active runways at the time, the load wasn't a problem, it was just a regular sling load and there were no emergency procedures for a banner that doesn't open... guess it never happened before.
So if you do fly the system where you have to do a slight forward movement on take off, PUNCH OFF THE BANNER IF IT DOESN'T OPEN UP WITH IN THE FIRST 200' AND TELL THE TOWER.
If I had known then what I know now that is what I would have done regardless of what the banner company would have said.
This isn't to scare people off of doing a job, but I won't be flying banners again, not worth it. When we flew them we had one person onboard using a mirror and from the state of the aircraft I’m glad I was the only one.
I have pictures of the crash but not sure if I can post them on here...first time post.
Be safe and be careful.
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thanks for all the input! It's a lot more interesting then I thought!
I know how dangerous banner towing can be with fixed wing.... I saw the remains of a plane after a missed pick-up... plane crashed, burned, was not a pretty sight.
So far it seems that the requirements before being able to do the tows with heli's is very lenient. And since normally EVERYTHING is regulated, I really wonder that this isn't... or it seems it isn't.
Westy
I know how dangerous banner towing can be with fixed wing.... I saw the remains of a plane after a missed pick-up... plane crashed, burned, was not a pretty sight.
So far it seems that the requirements before being able to do the tows with heli's is very lenient. And since normally EVERYTHING is regulated, I really wonder that this isn't... or it seems it isn't.
Westy
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This one is from a tow over sydney, it was approved as an overland tow as we or the crewman can release the sand from the bag prior to it being jettisoned from AC in the event of an emergency. the length of this flag from AC to sand bag is 200' with about 100kg of sand bag. doing max 40kts
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Tony,
I am not entirely sure of the legislation, Cabair obtained the original permission from the CAA in order to carry out the flag flying - this I know was quite a lengthy process. However I am relatively sure that once the system has been proven and the permission has been granted, the CAA, I am fairly sure, would not reject a request from another operator in order to maintain a fair commerical environment. As long as the system being operated was identical and the op's manual / FSI covering the banner towing contained similar height restrictions etc to that which has already been approved. They may of course request to see proof that the other operator is able to maintain the safety margins required by demonstration similar to Cabair.
It might also be that the system is under license and Cabair have the contract to carry out UK ops.
Hope this helps.
I am not entirely sure of the legislation, Cabair obtained the original permission from the CAA in order to carry out the flag flying - this I know was quite a lengthy process. However I am relatively sure that once the system has been proven and the permission has been granted, the CAA, I am fairly sure, would not reject a request from another operator in order to maintain a fair commerical environment. As long as the system being operated was identical and the op's manual / FSI covering the banner towing contained similar height restrictions etc to that which has already been approved. They may of course request to see proof that the other operator is able to maintain the safety margins required by demonstration similar to Cabair.
It might also be that the system is under license and Cabair have the contract to carry out UK ops.
Hope this helps.
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Somebody, presumably Cabair were on H4 at lunchtime today. Very gusty, and the banner was "downwind" so couldn't work out what it said anyway! How windy can it get before you cannot fly? If you have a 40kt VNe, and a 39kt tailwind, does it get dangerous?
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Banner Towing
From the newsgroups..
"According to a caller to BBC Cambridge, the helicopter & banner have parted company in Bluntisham. The banner is apparently in someone's garden after getting snagged on a tree."
Here is the "before" photo..
(Credit to Stuart Moore in Cambridge)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...helicopter.jpg
Anyone got the "after"?
"According to a caller to BBC Cambridge, the helicopter & banner have parted company in Bluntisham. The banner is apparently in someone's garden after getting snagged on a tree."
Here is the "before" photo..
(Credit to Stuart Moore in Cambridge)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...helicopter.jpg
Anyone got the "after"?
Last edited by cwatters; 29th Nov 2005 at 17:55.
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I had thought that it was because of potential accidents such as this that such banner towing was prohibited over built-up areas.
And yet, just week ago, a helicopter was towing just such a giant banner over central London. The results of such a large, albeit soft object falling suddenly on a busy street of traffic would be unfortunate, to say the least. It appears however that someone somewhere has decided that the risk is worth taking; maybe the Cambridge incident will show that the chances of it happening are greater than they thought.
And yet, just week ago, a helicopter was towing just such a giant banner over central London. The results of such a large, albeit soft object falling suddenly on a busy street of traffic would be unfortunate, to say the least. It appears however that someone somewhere has decided that the risk is worth taking; maybe the Cambridge incident will show that the chances of it happening are greater than they thought.
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The results of such a large, albeit soft object falling
I was also surprised by during a telecast of the Oval test to see a banner being towed down Balham way. I thought that was a piece of air you people used.
Avoid imitations
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It it very obvious that the incident was caused by what must have been a very close encounter with that "mother ship" in the photo.
I also spotted those "chemtrails" following behind.
It's a government plot, I tell you........
I also spotted those "chemtrails" following behind.
It's a government plot, I tell you........
I agree with the first comment, a falling banner could be a hazard to traffic. The weight however is designed to empty itself (sand) on the way down so no problem there (if it works).
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Seloco
Your concern for people in London is understandable.
Believe it or not, they allow cars and even buses and trucks to travel at 30 mph (and even 40 mph in some places) , only feet from pedestrians!
It would be very unfortunate if something went wrong.
Your concern for people in London is understandable.
Believe it or not, they allow cars and even buses and trucks to travel at 30 mph (and even 40 mph in some places) , only feet from pedestrians!
It would be very unfortunate if something went wrong.
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IT LANDED SAFELY IN CONNINGTON
STORY WAS A HOAX....THEY LAND THE BANNER IN AREA CHARLIE SAFELY IN CONNINGTON AIRFIELD....BANNER FOR ANTI PIRACY....FLOWN BY EXPERIENCE CAPTAINS..BY AEXPERIENCE CHARTER PROVIDER....THATS WHAT I HEAR..AND THEY BEIND HIRED IN JAPAN....APPARENTLY...BIG COMPANIES ARE COMING IN...SO WHY COMPLAIN JOBS.....IT WAS AGREAT JOB BY THE PILOTS ON THE SQURILL THIS MORNING.....
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STORY WAS A HOAX....THEY LAND THE BANNER IN AREA CHARLIE SAFELY IN CONNINGTON AIRFIELD....BANNER FOR ANTI PIRACY....FLOWN BY EXPERIENCE CAPTAINS..BY AEXPERIENCE CHARTER PROVIDER....THATS WHAT I HEAR..AND THEY BEIND HIRED IN JAPAN....APPARENTLY...BIG COMPANIES ARE COMING IN...SO WHY COMPLAIN JOBS.....IT WAS AGREAT JOB BY THE PILOTS ON THE SQURILL THIS MORNING.....
