Banner Towing
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Banner Towing
Hi all,
Just wondering if anybody(s) out there have any experience with banner towing.
I was in Akl NZ a while back and saw both H300 and AS350 a/c towing overhead the city/suburbs. Initially blown away as I thought underslung loads a definite no.no above the unsuspecting heads of the innocent public.
Had a rig explained to me as I know a weight is required to keep the line tightish to not ruin the hang(readability) of the important message. Anyway the rig as explained had either water/sand as the ballast and if dropped (pilot finger trouble or line breakage) the rig would invert, spill the ballast and the ballast container(a bit like a bambi bucket) would behave like a parachute. Sounds good, not too sure, but would assume during design the feds would have seen the lot pickled several times to insure it worked as expected (no squashed company ground crew = a big tick).
The rig had a main line down to the ballast, plus a secondary line spliced into the main with a number of short lines linking the two in a semi parallel arangement. The secondary line and connections were to take the "curve" out of the primary so the banner leading edge started as straight as possible.
The H300 banners were a decent size and very readable from 1500'AGL(eyeballometer), the AS350 jobbies were HUGE.
Appreciate any info on design, operation and any experience with CAA, FAA, or CASA in certification of banner ops.
Cheers & fly Safe
Hone
Just wondering if anybody(s) out there have any experience with banner towing.
I was in Akl NZ a while back and saw both H300 and AS350 a/c towing overhead the city/suburbs. Initially blown away as I thought underslung loads a definite no.no above the unsuspecting heads of the innocent public.
Had a rig explained to me as I know a weight is required to keep the line tightish to not ruin the hang(readability) of the important message. Anyway the rig as explained had either water/sand as the ballast and if dropped (pilot finger trouble or line breakage) the rig would invert, spill the ballast and the ballast container(a bit like a bambi bucket) would behave like a parachute. Sounds good, not too sure, but would assume during design the feds would have seen the lot pickled several times to insure it worked as expected (no squashed company ground crew = a big tick).
The rig had a main line down to the ballast, plus a secondary line spliced into the main with a number of short lines linking the two in a semi parallel arangement. The secondary line and connections were to take the "curve" out of the primary so the banner leading edge started as straight as possible.
The H300 banners were a decent size and very readable from 1500'AGL(eyeballometer), the AS350 jobbies were HUGE.
Appreciate any info on design, operation and any experience with CAA, FAA, or CASA in certification of banner ops.
Cheers & fly Safe
Hone
PPRuNe Enigma
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<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
The thought of that lot wrapped around the tail rotor.
No thanks !!!
The thought of that lot wrapped around the tail rotor.
No thanks !!!
Senis Semper Fidelis
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I have seen the big Royal Navy Helis do this in the past , but never any civvie one's, sound a tad riskkkeee!
My Regards <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
My Regards <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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Hi all,
Yeah have to agree sounds risky, but that pretty much sums up all external sling loads.
Watched the H300 setup, normal Veritcal ref style initial pickup (ground crew sorting lines, banner so clean hang) then a normal slingload transition from the hover.
Lines were approx 150-200' and ballast kept the lot hanging under the a/c. Transition to fwd flt saw the banner start to stream. Looked fairly straight forward to me and having done a decent amount of underslung loads recognize the 6 P's play an important part in reducing the gear into tail rotor scenario.
Seen banners towed in up to 20kts under the H300 can only assume the banner didn't affect controllability as the pilot carried on chugging away. Have only seen banner tows by civvie a/c as in NZ the forces aren't allowed to have any fun (hence the removal of toys + allowaces).
Any input from the WWW?
Cheers & Fly Safe
Hone
PS: The 6 P's ????
Proper,Pre-flight, Planning, Prevents, P!sspoor, Performance. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: Hone22 ]</p>
Yeah have to agree sounds risky, but that pretty much sums up all external sling loads.
Watched the H300 setup, normal Veritcal ref style initial pickup (ground crew sorting lines, banner so clean hang) then a normal slingload transition from the hover.
Lines were approx 150-200' and ballast kept the lot hanging under the a/c. Transition to fwd flt saw the banner start to stream. Looked fairly straight forward to me and having done a decent amount of underslung loads recognize the 6 P's play an important part in reducing the gear into tail rotor scenario.
Seen banners towed in up to 20kts under the H300 can only assume the banner didn't affect controllability as the pilot carried on chugging away. Have only seen banner tows by civvie a/c as in NZ the forces aren't allowed to have any fun (hence the removal of toys + allowaces).
Any input from the WWW?
Cheers & Fly Safe
Hone
PS: The 6 P's ????
Proper,Pre-flight, Planning, Prevents, P!sspoor, Performance. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: Hone22 ]</p>
We have been flying flags for >10years, although only over water. One operator has approval for an overland system in Australia.
Largest that I have flown was about 35,000 sq ft. The BK was hard pushed to manage, cruise at 25kts was OK until flying back into a 12 knot headwind!
Obviously all done on a very long line, sometimes up to 300ft to the weights. As mentioned, flags are cut on a bias so that at the spec. speed the curve on the leading edge leaves the rest of the flag 'square', and able to be recognised. The whole rig has to be flown off the ground, describing an arc around the weight until it, too, is off the groud. Similar technique for landing, the flag must also be kept out of the downwash during TO and landing.
Largest that I have flown was about 35,000 sq ft. The BK was hard pushed to manage, cruise at 25kts was OK until flying back into a 12 knot headwind!
Obviously all done on a very long line, sometimes up to 300ft to the weights. As mentioned, flags are cut on a bias so that at the spec. speed the curve on the leading edge leaves the rest of the flag 'square', and able to be recognised. The whole rig has to be flown off the ground, describing an arc around the weight until it, too, is off the groud. Similar technique for landing, the flag must also be kept out of the downwash during TO and landing.
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Hi John,
A BK hard pressed for 25kts, now i've heard it all. I guess i'll have to reconsider my wishlist for next crissy
Thanx for the input John, could you pls elaborate on the overwater/land approval. My understanding is the overwater towing you carry out needs no official nod as the load/sling doesn't pass over public land/heads/etc (or am i completly wrong here?) The overland I can understand would have to go through channels (or is that enter channels never to be seen again) what co. has the Australian approval?
Hope you're having time off, feet up, hot grub and somit cool to finish up.
cheers & fly safe
Hone
A BK hard pressed for 25kts, now i've heard it all. I guess i'll have to reconsider my wishlist for next crissy
Thanx for the input John, could you pls elaborate on the overwater/land approval. My understanding is the overwater towing you carry out needs no official nod as the load/sling doesn't pass over public land/heads/etc (or am i completly wrong here?) The overland I can understand would have to go through channels (or is that enter channels never to be seen again) what co. has the Australian approval?
Hope you're having time off, feet up, hot grub and somit cool to finish up.
cheers & fly safe
Hone
Flag flying has been a (political) hot potato since a certain Labour pollie got terribly upset when a flag was towed past his BBQ at Kirribilli House, around Sydney Harbour. Upshot is that CASA decreed Sydney Harbour to be a 'populous area', thereby requiring special permission to fly a flag!
The rest of the country isn't quite so bad, except that the interpretation of flag flying became a further moot point, since any sensible operator approached it as an underslung load job (as you would....). For various reasons, a legal interpretation came out of Canberra to refute this, and it is now considered to be Banner Towing, thus requiring a specfic approval on an AOC, and an Ops Manual supplement.
As a sling load operation, it was (and is) approached along the lines that a load must not be flown over people or property such that the dropping of a load could cause injury or damage on the ground. Hence the flying of flags overwater, following a beach where maximum exposure can be gained.
A Sydney operator has spent a lot of time and effort into developing a system very similar to that first described, whereby the flag has been approved by CASA to be flown over land, and thus over built up areas. The why's and wherefore's of the operation are not something that I can comment upon as there are a number of differing views from Australian operators, none of which I wish to be aligned with. As an approved operation, it appears very successful.
A number of factors often appear to be ommitted when considering flags to be flown, the major one (IMHO) being the drag of the material. Whilst the rig may only weigh a few hundred kilos, the wind drag of a flag is well documented (reference library will help) and can reach 1,000's of kg, depending on wind strength, thus creating either a breaking strain upon the flagpole, or exceeding the hook weight of the helicopter towing the beast. Hence the 25-30kt limit for most flag flying, above which the drag exceeds the hook capability.
I have also flown multiple flags, with 3-4 flags stacked above each other. Very heavy weights required to keep the line straightish, and a rad alt would have been quite useful when GTV9 advised me that the bottom weight was actually skipping over the waves Last AirShow DownUnder I flew three flags at night, equally interesting experience <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
As for time off, w're now into day 22 of the NSW fires, and current estimate is another couple of weeks before we wrap it up. 10+ hours a day almost every day, we're beginning to wish it was over. Current drops from the BK are >2500 since the start of fires, so we've put >2,000,000 litres from one little BK, some of which actually hit the flames <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> The Victorian loan aircraft are now wending their way back across the border, but all pilots and operators are undoubtedly going to be very short for a month or two when crews have to catch up on duty and flight hour dispensations. The RAN also returned to their homes today, further indication that we're in the mopping up stage.
(Edited to sort out grammar & spelling. Too long a day on the fires!!!)
[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>
The rest of the country isn't quite so bad, except that the interpretation of flag flying became a further moot point, since any sensible operator approached it as an underslung load job (as you would....). For various reasons, a legal interpretation came out of Canberra to refute this, and it is now considered to be Banner Towing, thus requiring a specfic approval on an AOC, and an Ops Manual supplement.
As a sling load operation, it was (and is) approached along the lines that a load must not be flown over people or property such that the dropping of a load could cause injury or damage on the ground. Hence the flying of flags overwater, following a beach where maximum exposure can be gained.
A Sydney operator has spent a lot of time and effort into developing a system very similar to that first described, whereby the flag has been approved by CASA to be flown over land, and thus over built up areas. The why's and wherefore's of the operation are not something that I can comment upon as there are a number of differing views from Australian operators, none of which I wish to be aligned with. As an approved operation, it appears very successful.
A number of factors often appear to be ommitted when considering flags to be flown, the major one (IMHO) being the drag of the material. Whilst the rig may only weigh a few hundred kilos, the wind drag of a flag is well documented (reference library will help) and can reach 1,000's of kg, depending on wind strength, thus creating either a breaking strain upon the flagpole, or exceeding the hook weight of the helicopter towing the beast. Hence the 25-30kt limit for most flag flying, above which the drag exceeds the hook capability.
I have also flown multiple flags, with 3-4 flags stacked above each other. Very heavy weights required to keep the line straightish, and a rad alt would have been quite useful when GTV9 advised me that the bottom weight was actually skipping over the waves
Last AirShow DownUnder I flew three flags at night, equally interesting experience <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> As for time off, w're now into day 22 of the NSW fires, and current estimate is another couple of weeks before we wrap it up. 10+ hours a day almost every day, we're beginning to wish it was over. Current drops from the BK are >2500 since the start of fires, so we've put >2,000,000 litres from one little BK, some of which actually hit the flames <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> The Victorian loan aircraft are now wending their way back across the border, but all pilots and operators are undoubtedly going to be very short for a month or two when crews have to catch up on duty and flight hour dispensations. The RAN also returned to their homes today, further indication that we're in the mopping up stage.
(Edited to sort out grammar & spelling. Too long a day on the fires!!!)
[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>
Vfrpilotpb said: "I have seen the big Royal Navy Helis do this in the past , but never any civvie one's, sound a tad riskkkeee!"
Sorry to hog the thread, but I have an air to air photo I took over Leeds in (about) 1971, where we flew a White Ensign and a Leeds flag under a couple of Wessex (Wessie??). No idea what we used as weights, or how the concept came about or was tested, but there is certainly nothing new under the sun
Sorry to hog the thread, but I have an air to air photo I took over Leeds in (about) 1971, where we flew a White Ensign and a Leeds flag under a couple of Wessex (Wessie??). No idea what we used as weights, or how the concept came about or was tested, but there is certainly nothing new under the sun
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Good Morning John,
It was a Wessex that I observed doing this about the early 70's I wonder , it could have been you, that Chequered flag seems a litte to big to run up my house pole, it must weigh quitea bit as well as the drag factor, good picci though.
My Regards
It was a Wessex that I observed doing this about the early 70's I wonder , it could have been you, that Chequered flag seems a litte to big to run up my house pole, it must weigh quitea bit as well as the drag factor, good picci though.
My Regards
The towing over populated areas is conducted using a certified and patented system designed by an Australian operator, similar to that Hone described above. I dont know who the operator is but I believe they fly BK117s on the fires. Maybe John Eacott knows?
Banner Towing
Just curious as to what it takes to be able to do this. Yesterday, Sunday 17 April, there was a huge blue commercial advertisment, about the largest airborne banner I've ever seen, being dragged across Central/East London by a red helicopter for about 2 hours continuously, from 1700 to 1900 local, at I'm estimating 2,000 feet.
Now not being a rotary man I don't know how the regs are different for them. But I imagine if I request to fly myself single-engined in Class A airspace across a fully built up area tying up Thames Radar and the London City departures for this length of time there might be a few words said.
I know if he gets an engine failure he can auto-rotate down or manage to get clear if he is twin-engined, but I presume he would have to drop the banner in such circumstances. And as I said, it was huge.
Now not being a rotary man I don't know how the regs are different for them. But I imagine if I request to fly myself single-engined in Class A airspace across a fully built up area tying up Thames Radar and the London City departures for this length of time there might be a few words said.
I know if he gets an engine failure he can auto-rotate down or manage to get clear if he is twin-engined, but I presume he would have to drop the banner in such circumstances. And as I said, it was huge.
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Hmm - think I saw the same setup over St. Albans/Watford area at the backend of last week, about 18:00 on Friday 15th IIRC.
As well as the airspace & conflict issues I was really intrigued by the structure - I couldn't work out how a single aircraft was supporting what appearerd to be a rectangular banner (rather than the more usual streamer-type arrangement)
Rgds
IHF
As well as the airspace & conflict issues I was really intrigued by the structure - I couldn't work out how a single aircraft was supporting what appearerd to be a rectangular banner (rather than the more usual streamer-type arrangement)
Rgds
IHF
Paxing All Over The World
I did not see this but when I have seen helis towing a banner, there is a drop wire that has a weight at the base, this stabilises the wire to the vertical and allows the banner to stream. I have seen military choppers do this at displays with the flag/colours of the regiment.
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The banner system was developed in Australia and is currently flying all over the world. I am sure you are going to see alot more of these. Very easy to fly and extremely easy on the aircraft. I am sure airspace and confilct issues are not too great as you cannot do more than 30 - 40 kts with the banner. And being 12000 sq feet in size you are not too hard to miss. Safe as houses.
Skylark Promotions have developed an overland system for flag flying, circumventing the sling load requirement to avoid overflying people/property. They are marketing world wide, not sure of the web site since the Skylark one is down. Patent rights on the system, which is jettisonable, but the setup has been demonstrated in a full auto to touch down with the flag attached.
Normally a JetRanger will drag up to 12-15,000 sq ft, up to 40 kias. Larger flags need larger airframes, biggest I've dragged around was just under 40,000 sq ft, with a BK117. I'd be very careful about pulling a flag larger than the helicopter's capability, apart from undue stress, the tendency to pitch toward the cyclic limit will spoil your day!
Not much weight, but lots of drag. The cut of the flag is done to allow for the correct curve in the leading edge, so that the rest of the flag flies straight and the logo is legible. Weight at the bottom of the flag to stabilise, the line can be 1-200ft top to bottom.
Normally a JetRanger will drag up to 12-15,000 sq ft, up to 40 kias. Larger flags need larger airframes, biggest I've dragged around was just under 40,000 sq ft, with a BK117. I'd be very careful about pulling a flag larger than the helicopter's capability, apart from undue stress, the tendency to pitch toward the cyclic limit will spoil your day!
Not much weight, but lots of drag. The cut of the flag is done to allow for the correct curve in the leading edge, so that the rest of the flag flies straight and the logo is legible. Weight at the bottom of the flag to stabilise, the line can be 1-200ft top to bottom.