EC145
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Even though I never tried , and never hope to try, apparently the 145 can be flow without hydraulics in the event of a dual failure, the 135 however is a no go.
As Spinwing says, both hyd systems are active (pumps running) but #2 is in bypass (no pressure) until #1 fails.
A Bo105 in the UK did have a temporary (long enough to scare the sh*t out of the pilot) dual hyd system failure, in flight, about 4 - 5 years ago.
Last edited by nodrama; 10th Sep 2010 at 08:15.
And possibly needless to say but I will - DO NOT TOUCH THE "HYD TEST" SWITCH IN FLIGHT!!!
Join Date: Apr 2003
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I might be wrong, If i am, I apologize for giving you grief, but please, then tell me how to interpret this one ( I tried to insert a picture of the page but can't figure it out, I will type it instead):
Page 04-32, Eurocopter EC145 (BK117-C2) training manual states (word for word):
Redundancy provision:
The hydraulics power system is a dual system. It has two identical pressure supply systems, system 1 and system 2, that operate independently. Under normal operating conditions both pressure supply systems simultaneously generate the entire pressure for boosting the main rotor controls. System 2 in addition boosts the tail rotor controls. If one of the pressure supply systems fails, the remaining system continues to supply the main rotor actuators. This causes the operating force of the mechano-hydraulically operated main rotor actuators to decrease to half.
Now I am not an engineer, just a pilot and my knowledge is from what I read. How am I reading this wrong?
I hear what you say about the BK, quote:
One of the systems (system1) is the MAIN system the other system (system 2) is the STANDBY system. Under normal operating conditions ONLY the MAIN system functions as the (controls) booster. If there is any malfunction within the MAIN system, it will be immediately cutoff and the standby system will be actuated automatically.
But I assure you, and I just read the damned chapter 3 times and this is non existing or no mentioning regarding a MAIN and STANDBY function of any of the systems in the EC145 manual.
I will email you a scanned copy of chapter 4 if you pm me your email address. I don't mind being wrong, it's all part of "learning", but I sure as hell want to know where I am going wrong if so the case... otherwise all this was a waste of energy.
Page 04-32, Eurocopter EC145 (BK117-C2) training manual states (word for word):
Redundancy provision:
The hydraulics power system is a dual system. It has two identical pressure supply systems, system 1 and system 2, that operate independently. Under normal operating conditions both pressure supply systems simultaneously generate the entire pressure for boosting the main rotor controls. System 2 in addition boosts the tail rotor controls. If one of the pressure supply systems fails, the remaining system continues to supply the main rotor actuators. This causes the operating force of the mechano-hydraulically operated main rotor actuators to decrease to half.
Now I am not an engineer, just a pilot and my knowledge is from what I read. How am I reading this wrong?
I hear what you say about the BK, quote:
One of the systems (system1) is the MAIN system the other system (system 2) is the STANDBY system. Under normal operating conditions ONLY the MAIN system functions as the (controls) booster. If there is any malfunction within the MAIN system, it will be immediately cutoff and the standby system will be actuated automatically.
But I assure you, and I just read the damned chapter 3 times and this is non existing or no mentioning regarding a MAIN and STANDBY function of any of the systems in the EC145 manual.
I will email you a scanned copy of chapter 4 if you pm me your email address. I don't mind being wrong, it's all part of "learning", but I sure as hell want to know where I am going wrong if so the case... otherwise all this was a waste of energy.
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Gentleman,
Here we go. Since the outcome so far was not satisfactory to me at all and I didn't feel I walked away from this discussion, wrong or right, having learned something, I took it upon myself to call an old acquaintance of mine under who's command I once had the privilege of working and now is a prominent figure in the Eurocopter division of my area (Americas).
The EC145 hydraulic pack is essentially the same as the EC135 hydraulic pack. Eurocopter quote: for whom this might be unacceptable, verify part numbers BK117 A series through C1 series and note the difference of that of the BK117 C2 (EC145). Therefore, as stated in the EC145 manual and now twice word for word quoted to you for your information, both pressure supply systems simultaneously generate the entire pressure for boosting the main rotor controls. In contrary to the earlier BK series, there is no such thing as an active and standby system.
Mr spinwing, I rest my case. The EC145, which is not a BK117 in the sense of its entire design, although some/a lot of similarities, is something you might want to reeducate yourself on if my answer still is not to your satisfaction. I invite you to call Eurocopter yourself if you feel the need to do so.
At the same time Mr spinwing: Thank you for this discussion, this is the ultimate way for me to increase my knowledge to the point of practical application and understanding. I could not have done so without you. I just hope you yourself learned something as well.
best regards
Otter
Here we go. Since the outcome so far was not satisfactory to me at all and I didn't feel I walked away from this discussion, wrong or right, having learned something, I took it upon myself to call an old acquaintance of mine under who's command I once had the privilege of working and now is a prominent figure in the Eurocopter division of my area (Americas).
The EC145 hydraulic pack is essentially the same as the EC135 hydraulic pack. Eurocopter quote: for whom this might be unacceptable, verify part numbers BK117 A series through C1 series and note the difference of that of the BK117 C2 (EC145). Therefore, as stated in the EC145 manual and now twice word for word quoted to you for your information, both pressure supply systems simultaneously generate the entire pressure for boosting the main rotor controls. In contrary to the earlier BK series, there is no such thing as an active and standby system.
Mr spinwing, I rest my case. The EC145, which is not a BK117 in the sense of its entire design, although some/a lot of similarities, is something you might want to reeducate yourself on if my answer still is not to your satisfaction. I invite you to call Eurocopter yourself if you feel the need to do so.
At the same time Mr spinwing: Thank you for this discussion, this is the ultimate way for me to increase my knowledge to the point of practical application and understanding. I could not have done so without you. I just hope you yourself learned something as well.
best regards
Otter
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Mmm
Otter .....
Without a doubt I have learned something .... that the Hyd packs though similar DO operate in a different manner ...
As I said in my posts I was only intimately familiar with the Bo105/BK117 set up and was not aware of any differences ... you have proved to me those differences and I can only say that I think that is a good thing ... obviously Eurocopters have improved the operation of those packs by having them now operate simultaneously ... from an engineering and safety point of view that is a product improvement ...
Having said all that we still have an aircraft that cannot be flown with both hydraulic packs disabled
Keep on with the probing questions .... tenacity can be good ... for everybody
Cheers and take care .....
Otter .....
Without a doubt I have learned something .... that the Hyd packs though similar DO operate in a different manner ...
As I said in my posts I was only intimately familiar with the Bo105/BK117 set up and was not aware of any differences ... you have proved to me those differences and I can only say that I think that is a good thing ... obviously Eurocopters have improved the operation of those packs by having them now operate simultaneously ... from an engineering and safety point of view that is a product improvement ...
Having said all that we still have an aircraft that cannot be flown with both hydraulic packs disabled
Keep on with the probing questions .... tenacity can be good ... for everybody
Cheers and take care .....
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Congratulations to Spinwing and Otter!
Some sensible, reasonable and well researched debate has led to an outcome that even bystanders, such as myself, can learn from.
I hope some other Ppruner's can follow your example in future and help keep this forum worth reading, i.e, without reverting to a slanging match when one has a differing opinion and one is able to graciously accept being corrected in the end.
Good work gentlemen.
Some sensible, reasonable and well researched debate has led to an outcome that even bystanders, such as myself, can learn from.
I hope some other Ppruner's can follow your example in future and help keep this forum worth reading, i.e, without reverting to a slanging match when one has a differing opinion and one is able to graciously accept being corrected in the end.
Good work gentlemen.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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EC145 front doors off
I need some specific info on the Front Doors Off limitation.
Looking at the ec145 flight manual supplement F M S 9.1–2, it would seem that one is limited to 30kts with either or both the front (crew) doors removed.
We are looking at using the ec145 for vertical reference sling work (100-200') precision stuff. We previously used the BK117B2/C1, and it works very nicely with the front door removed. Does anybody know of any operators using the ec145 for VR yet?
As flying around doing drill moves at 30 kts is not really an option. According to this thread, there is some sort of device that locks the door into place, about 100mm wide gap between the door and floor. Perhaps someone/an operator has some experience with this.
Any info would be greatly appreciated,
Red Ant
Looking at the ec145 flight manual supplement F M S 9.1–2, it would seem that one is limited to 30kts with either or both the front (crew) doors removed.
We are looking at using the ec145 for vertical reference sling work (100-200') precision stuff. We previously used the BK117B2/C1, and it works very nicely with the front door removed. Does anybody know of any operators using the ec145 for VR yet?
As flying around doing drill moves at 30 kts is not really an option. According to this thread, there is some sort of device that locks the door into place, about 100mm wide gap between the door and floor. Perhaps someone/an operator has some experience with this.
Any info would be greatly appreciated,
Red Ant
Join Date: Apr 2005
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yes there is an option for the forward doors that allows you to fly with the door slightly open or with a wider angle open. If you look in the flight manual supplement 9.1-2 operation with door open and look on page 3 you'll see the airspeed limitations. on top of page 4 you have the part number for this "spoiler" option : "Use of EXTENSION pos. is only possible when the door locking device P/N B520M4023051 and/or B520M4022051 is installed"
fully extended your speed is still limited t0 30 KIAS but with the small angle (spoiler position), you can fly up to 100 KIAS.
fully extended your speed is still limited t0 30 KIAS but with the small angle (spoiler position), you can fly up to 100 KIAS.
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hover RPM
Hi folks,
I have a question for 145 pilots:
At high density, during hover, in the NORM mode operation, I guess the rotor speed is between 101% and 103.5%..is it 102% like the 139 or slighly more?
I have a question for 145 pilots:
At high density, during hover, in the NORM mode operation, I guess the rotor speed is between 101% and 103.5%..is it 102% like the 139 or slighly more?
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I'm not quite sure of the question but the Nr will be at 103.5% in hover above 6500 ft density altitude. It's at 101% up to 3600 ft density and a constant increase from there to 6500 ft. Hope that answers your question.
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The NR is controlled by the VARTOM and the control law is as follow:
For IAS<55KIAS, Nr= 101% up to 3600ft DA. Then it will increase up to 103.5% above 6500ft DA.
For IAS>55KIAS, Nr= 96.5% up to 3600ft DA. Then it will increase up to 101% above 8800ft DA.
For a given altitude, the Nr will slightly increase with airspeed. For example at Vh, Nr will go up to ~97% up to 3600ft DA and up to 102% above 8800ft DA.
So to answer your question, if you're at high DA (let say above 8800ft), the Nr will be at 103.5% in hover and up to 55KIAS, passing 55KIAS it will drop to 101%
For IAS<55KIAS, Nr= 101% up to 3600ft DA. Then it will increase up to 103.5% above 6500ft DA.
For IAS>55KIAS, Nr= 96.5% up to 3600ft DA. Then it will increase up to 101% above 8800ft DA.
For a given altitude, the Nr will slightly increase with airspeed. For example at Vh, Nr will go up to ~97% up to 3600ft DA and up to 102% above 8800ft DA.
So to answer your question, if you're at high DA (let say above 8800ft), the Nr will be at 103.5% in hover and up to 55KIAS, passing 55KIAS it will drop to 101%
Join Date: Jan 2011
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thnks! really precise..
I thought that increasing the speed, at a fixed altitude, the NR would decrease in order to reduce as much as possible transonic effects on the advancing blade..
I thought that increasing the speed, at a fixed altitude, the NR would decrease in order to reduce as much as possible transonic effects on the advancing blade..
The odd thing is the local hype says 'an upgrade and a new type' and yet the suggestion is that what we are about to see are two upgrades, one to the AS350B3 and the other to the EC145/BK117C2. The latter is expected to be EC146/BK117C3 offering a number of [I]must have [I]features including FADEC and the fenestron. Certainly an airframe offering features the industry has wanted for a while.
If the 146 is indeed the 'new type' then it suggests that EC have caught the overhype bug that turned the magnificent Bell Magellan into 'just' a Bell 412upgrade.
If not........ then there may be a wow wow factor after all.
If the 146 is indeed the 'new type' then it suggests that EC have caught the overhype bug that turned the magnificent Bell Magellan into 'just' a Bell 412upgrade.
If not........ then there may be a wow wow factor after all.
Rumors say it may be called EC 145 T2
If eurocopter logic of type markings XX5 is for twin engine, than I can't see the "new type" as 146. EC145 T2 seems a bit more straight forward, following EC135's foot steps.
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EC 146 Photos...
The new BK 117-C3(?) (EC 146) tested in January 2011 at Donauwörth, Germany. EC145 with Fenestron and (just rumors for now) dual-channel FADEC.
Last edited by MrDrumpy; 5th Mar 2011 at 20:02.