Flying in snow
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: At home
T.C. is quite correct in that the EC 135 doesn't have a C of G problem. It has a landing gear position problem.
PANews spoke of the shot of one ship that had landed across a levee or similar and it had pivoted about the rear of the skids and was stuck tail down nearly vertical down the embankment. Probably happened as the pilot stepped out. Great shot but what an embarrassment.
Pity EC can't move the rear cross-tube back another 6 inches or so though as it seems it is currently positioned directly on the C of G. Even picking the bird up with a Tug-a-lug generally requires placing some ballast on the front of the skids to prevent it from tipping backwards.
PANews spoke of the shot of one ship that had landed across a levee or similar and it had pivoted about the rear of the skids and was stuck tail down nearly vertical down the embankment. Probably happened as the pilot stepped out. Great shot but what an embarrassment.
Pity EC can't move the rear cross-tube back another 6 inches or so though as it seems it is currently positioned directly on the C of G. Even picking the bird up with a Tug-a-lug generally requires placing some ballast on the front of the skids to prevent it from tipping backwards.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: At home
Lima Oscar
I agree that you didn't say it had a problem, just that it "is really on the rear". I was simply agreeing with TC that it didn't. Other than the nasty trait of wanting to sit on its tail on the ground, it is a delightful little machine.
I agree that you didn't say it had a problem, just that it "is really on the rear". I was simply agreeing with TC that it didn't. Other than the nasty trait of wanting to sit on its tail on the ground, it is a delightful little machine.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Originally Posted by SawThe Light
Lima Oscar
I agree that you didn't say it had a problem, just that it "is really on the rear". I was simply agreeing with TC that it didn't. Other than the nasty trait of wanting to sit on its tail on the ground, it is a delightful little machine.
I agree that you didn't say it had a problem, just that it "is really on the rear". I was simply agreeing with TC that it didn't. Other than the nasty trait of wanting to sit on its tail on the ground, it is a delightful little machine.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Austria
EC-135 landing an take-off
Hi folks,
this is Gilbert, the Austrian EC135 pilot (shown in action on the video)!
Of course, I did! I also told the HEMS-crew to get out and report, wether the snow-skids where fully on the ground and how the surface is. He reported: "both skids well on ground, surface is hard"!
I shut down and when the rotor stopped, I went out normally. Just when my feet touched the ground, I heard a "sort of scratching" noise and the EC sunk rearwards, until the Fenestron-housing stopped it!
Actually the surface was frozen hard, but there was sort of powder-snow down under. The snow-skids would sink, including a greater piece of the hard surface!
Never experienced this before - flying EC135 since 1997 in mountainous areas of Austria.
I have checked the situation of the Fenstron eagerly and decided, NOT to dig it out because I was afraid, it could sink even deeper?
We also tried to pull the aircraft into it`s normal attitude - no way!
The "recovery" maneuver was not a real problem - despite I should have made it a bit less harsh!? No limit on mast-moment, no uncommon feeling - she moved a bit too fast but, well, that was it! (No such training ever before!)
Losses: the tail-bumper was slightly damaged, replaced and a special-check was carried out. No further damages.
Reliable aircraft? I guess....
Kind regards,
old Gil.
this is Gilbert, the Austrian EC135 pilot (shown in action on the video)!
......if the pilot had test the density of the snow during landing, by "jerking" the collective up and down in a gentle manner, maybe he could avoid the situation. ....
Of course, I did! I also told the HEMS-crew to get out and report, wether the snow-skids where fully on the ground and how the surface is. He reported: "both skids well on ground, surface is hard"!
I shut down and when the rotor stopped, I went out normally. Just when my feet touched the ground, I heard a "sort of scratching" noise and the EC sunk rearwards, until the Fenestron-housing stopped it!
Actually the surface was frozen hard, but there was sort of powder-snow down under. The snow-skids would sink, including a greater piece of the hard surface!
Never experienced this before - flying EC135 since 1997 in mountainous areas of Austria.
I have checked the situation of the Fenstron eagerly and decided, NOT to dig it out because I was afraid, it could sink even deeper?
We also tried to pull the aircraft into it`s normal attitude - no way!
The "recovery" maneuver was not a real problem - despite I should have made it a bit less harsh!? No limit on mast-moment, no uncommon feeling - she moved a bit too fast but, well, that was it! (No such training ever before!)
Losses: the tail-bumper was slightly damaged, replaced and a special-check was carried out. No further damages.
Reliable aircraft? I guess....
Kind regards,
old Gil.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Hi Gilbert, sorry I didn't want to offence you. But you are right I saw similar thing happen in Canada. An Astar land by a lake, where the snow seem to be ok but when the rotor stop and the pilot disembark, the A/C sunk in the snow. I was flying by and the pilot call me to look during he attemp a take off, same as yours. Basically good job.
Cheers
Dick
Cheers
Dick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Austria
EC135 take-off
Hi Phoinix
yeah, was thinking about this (even the snow on top of the skid was not the real reason for "sinking")
Finally, I decided, not to remove snow or dig somehow for not to destabilise the tricky ground!
Seen retrospectively, I would move more slowly (but I had to consider the mast-moment limit, of course) !
Lesson learned: TAKE ADDITIONAL CARE - NEVER TRUST THE SNOW TOO MUCH!
Kindest regards,
old Gil.
yeah, was thinking about this (even the snow on top of the skid was not the real reason for "sinking")
Finally, I decided, not to remove snow or dig somehow for not to destabilise the tricky ground!
Seen retrospectively, I would move more slowly (but I had to consider the mast-moment limit, of course) !
Lesson learned: TAKE ADDITIONAL CARE - NEVER TRUST THE SNOW TOO MUCH!
Kindest regards,
old Gil.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Austria
Hi Warrigal
Yeah - my wording! Thank you!
Another lesson learned, yes!
This time, tricky terrain and conditions every day!
Foggy weather, fresh snow, poor visibility - many missions!
Last weekend, we had stormy northwind - up to 80 kts max. in 12000ft!
Hard winter this year!
You`re better off in Australia, rather than in Austria, at the time beeing?
I dream so....
Kind regards,
old Gil
Yeah - my wording! Thank you!
Another lesson learned, yes!
This time, tricky terrain and conditions every day!
Foggy weather, fresh snow, poor visibility - many missions!
Last weekend, we had stormy northwind - up to 80 kts max. in 12000ft!
Hard winter this year!
You`re better off in Australia, rather than in Austria, at the time beeing?
I dream so....
Kind regards,
old Gil
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Midwest USA
Q's about flying in snow
Hello,
Anyone have any rules of thumb about flying in snow. More like when icing may occur, ie...temps, relative humidity freezing level? I fly vfr and am familiar with when icing may occur when in the clouds, but there isn't much info I can find on icing when it comes to flying while it's snowing.
Thanks for your help
S
Anyone have any rules of thumb about flying in snow. More like when icing may occur, ie...temps, relative humidity freezing level? I fly vfr and am familiar with when icing may occur when in the clouds, but there isn't much info I can find on icing when it comes to flying while it's snowing.
Thanks for your help
S