Flying in snow
Or are resources stretched past their limit due to ignorance.??
MD900,
Familiar refrain, I first heard it about 1953 when British Railways couldn't cope with snow on the tracks
I suspect the NS lads may have something to say about ability to fly in snow, etc. Horrible memories of Brent Field shuttles in driving snow, relying on the 212 intakes not to clog up
Familiar refrain, I first heard it about 1953 when British Railways couldn't cope with snow on the tracks
I suspect the NS lads may have something to say about ability to fly in snow, etc. Horrible memories of Brent Field shuttles in driving snow, relying on the 212 intakes not to clog up
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 573
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does your Flight Manual say about flying in snow. If it says you should not, then don't. If it says you can, then be sure to understand the limitations that are prescribed. Whiteout is always likely on take-off and landing. Do you know and have been instructed on snow take-offs and landings.
Saw a swan who hadn't had mums instructions and supervision on landing on the white stuff come to grief in a spectacular landing as white out conditions existed and the poor swan thought that the surface was several feet lower than it actually was. There were feathers and snow all mixed up, and it took a while for the swan to rearrange it's feathers back into flying condition.
If your pitot hasn't heat then for sure you should stay in bed.
Saw a swan who hadn't had mums instructions and supervision on landing on the white stuff come to grief in a spectacular landing as white out conditions existed and the poor swan thought that the surface was several feet lower than it actually was. There were feathers and snow all mixed up, and it took a while for the swan to rearrange it's feathers back into flying condition.
If your pitot hasn't heat then for sure you should stay in bed.
Passion Flying Hobby Science Sponsor Work
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Belgium
Age: 68
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alpine Approaches
Meribel, Alpe d'Huez
Some pictures taken in the summer of 2003.
Tried to post that last May but did not really got the IT to work.
Finally got it figured out.
I hope that this still has some value in view of the delay.....
http://www.e-sign.be/Private/heli
Alpe d'Huez Approach
Alpe d'Huez Final
Meribel Approach 1
Meribel approach 3
Delta3
Some pictures taken in the summer of 2003.
Tried to post that last May but did not really got the IT to work.
Finally got it figured out.
I hope that this still has some value in view of the delay.....
http://www.e-sign.be/Private/heli
Alpe d'Huez Approach
Alpe d'Huez Final
Meribel Approach 1
Meribel approach 3
Delta3
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ref switching to IFR, all "Nos"! Firstly you wouldn't go from VFR to IFR in snow due to icing, assuming helo is is not icing approved, which only some bigger types are. Nor would you switch at low level, unless you were intending to climb up to MSA in which case you'd need to know that icing wasn't a risk. Which it almost certainly would be. And finally you would go IFR at low speed - well not very low speed anyway - as there is always a minimum IMC speed - typically 55 kts.
Flying in snow can be ok though depending on acft (and snow) type, and severity. Not sure what Kent run but if AS355, off top of my head recall limit as unlimited time over 1500m vis, 10 mins from 800m to 1500m and no go under 800m. Of course not ideal and you'd still keep a careful watch on ice/snow build up. Where the engine air intake is positioned is important - eg 206's without snow baffles are bad news as snow can block up the forward facing intake quickly.
Prob not a drama. Don't forget snow looks a lot more when travelling at speed. Especially at night!
Flying in snow can be ok though depending on acft (and snow) type, and severity. Not sure what Kent run but if AS355, off top of my head recall limit as unlimited time over 1500m vis, 10 mins from 800m to 1500m and no go under 800m. Of course not ideal and you'd still keep a careful watch on ice/snow build up. Where the engine air intake is positioned is important - eg 206's without snow baffles are bad news as snow can block up the forward facing intake quickly.
Prob not a drama. Don't forget snow looks a lot more when travelling at speed. Especially at night!
Hi KMS
A couple of points here - Firstly, flight in dry falling or blowing snow is not, in itself, considered to be icing conditions. For this reason, subject to Flight Manual limitations, the helicopter may be able to fly in IMC in snow. However, if the climb to MSA involves a climb into cloud and the temperature is below zero, then the helicopter would have to have an Icing Clearance (usually larger machines only.)
The other thing to remember is that most of this snow is in the form of showers and is therefore easily identified and avoided if required.
Essentially, I can't see any problem with what you have reported.
Cheers
TeeS
A couple of points here - Firstly, flight in dry falling or blowing snow is not, in itself, considered to be icing conditions. For this reason, subject to Flight Manual limitations, the helicopter may be able to fly in IMC in snow. However, if the climb to MSA involves a climb into cloud and the temperature is below zero, then the helicopter would have to have an Icing Clearance (usually larger machines only.)
The other thing to remember is that most of this snow is in the form of showers and is therefore easily identified and avoided if required.
Essentially, I can't see any problem with what you have reported.
Cheers
TeeS
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is, of course, the rather important issue of landing and taking off. When hovering, recirculation of snow can be a problem to such an extent that the pilot experiences "whiteout" conditions and is unable to see anything outside the cockpit resulting in disorientation and an accident. Consequently, a takeoff should normally involve an immediate transition to forward flight. Equally, when landing, the pilot should aim for a "zero-zero" landing; that is to say, aim for an easily identifiable point on the ground and plan your approach so that you land on the ground (zero feet) with no forward speed (zero speed). That way, any recirculation should always be behind you. If you slow down too much so that recirculation catches up with you, go around and try again.
If you have never experienced this before, a flight with a suitably experienced instructor is probably a good idea.
If you have never experienced this before, a flight with a suitably experienced instructor is probably a good idea.
Nay Laddy, hot rum toddies and an open fire with a ski bunny attached to yer arm....now that is the way to fly in snow!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KMS
VFR nav can be a little more tricky because the terrain looks very different and familiar landmarks may disappear. Lifting/putting down in fresh snow will result in a disconcerting white-out if you haven't been warned and told how to avoid it (Curtis gives one method) but even nondescript countryside looks beautiful covered in blanket of freshly fallen snow.
If you get the opportunity, take it.
If you feel uneasy about it, fly with a more experienced pilot until you feel comfortable.
It's an experience not to be missed.
VFR nav can be a little more tricky because the terrain looks very different and familiar landmarks may disappear. Lifting/putting down in fresh snow will result in a disconcerting white-out if you haven't been warned and told how to avoid it (Curtis gives one method) but even nondescript countryside looks beautiful covered in blanket of freshly fallen snow.
If you get the opportunity, take it.
If you feel uneasy about it, fly with a more experienced pilot until you feel comfortable.
It's an experience not to be missed.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He was with us at Thames radar this morning - he went fairly low in his chase for snow as he disappeared off the radar when around leeds Castle (I have heard of chasing twisters....! 
)
They then took a leisurely trip through H4/H10 back to Booker - getting lucky with LHR on Easterlies as they didn't need to hold.
Sounds like a fun morning out!
) They then took a leisurely trip through H4/H10 back to Booker - getting lucky with LHR on Easterlies as they didn't need to hold.
Sounds like a fun morning out!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kissmysquirrel:
I have flown in wet snow, dry snow, light snow, heavy snow, fluffy snow, re-circulating snow, blowing snow, drifting snow, snow pellets, snow grains, snow showers, snow squalls- day time and night time, VFR and IFR.
Taking-off and landing in conditions conducive to re-circulating snow is quite simple here’s how to do it.
Takeoff: Apply enough power to get the aircraft light on the landing gear and wait. The aircraft will become enveloped in a huge snow blizzard, eventually all the snow that is loose enough to blow will be blown away and you visibility will increase. When you have sufficient references do a towering take-off (trade-off airspeed for altitude) up to 30-50 feet or as required to get above the snowball before transitioning to forward flight.
On Landing: Arrive in a high hover 50-75 feet above the landing site and wait, as in the take-off phase the landing site will initially become obscured but after a while 1-2 minutes the landing references under the aircraft will be visible and then you can continue your decent to a normal landing. This is the easiest and safest way to do it; the no-hover landing technique requires more skill and you have to be certain that the landing site is suitable for your aircraft-not the type of procedure that you want to do in a confined area that you’ve never been into before.
Keep in mind that when using the above techniques your references could be inside the rotor disc so before you try it practice landings and take-offs with your references in close. You also have to ensure that you have Hover Out of Ground Effect (HOGE) performance.
Basically you use the helicopters rotor system as a snow blower.
I have flown in wet snow, dry snow, light snow, heavy snow, fluffy snow, re-circulating snow, blowing snow, drifting snow, snow pellets, snow grains, snow showers, snow squalls- day time and night time, VFR and IFR.
Taking-off and landing in conditions conducive to re-circulating snow is quite simple here’s how to do it.
Takeoff: Apply enough power to get the aircraft light on the landing gear and wait. The aircraft will become enveloped in a huge snow blizzard, eventually all the snow that is loose enough to blow will be blown away and you visibility will increase. When you have sufficient references do a towering take-off (trade-off airspeed for altitude) up to 30-50 feet or as required to get above the snowball before transitioning to forward flight.
On Landing: Arrive in a high hover 50-75 feet above the landing site and wait, as in the take-off phase the landing site will initially become obscured but after a while 1-2 minutes the landing references under the aircraft will be visible and then you can continue your decent to a normal landing. This is the easiest and safest way to do it; the no-hover landing technique requires more skill and you have to be certain that the landing site is suitable for your aircraft-not the type of procedure that you want to do in a confined area that you’ve never been into before.
Keep in mind that when using the above techniques your references could be inside the rotor disc so before you try it practice landings and take-offs with your references in close. You also have to ensure that you have Hover Out of Ground Effect (HOGE) performance.
Basically you use the helicopters rotor system as a snow blower.
"Arrive in a high hover 50-75 feet above the landing site and wait, as in the take-off phase the landing site will initially become obscured but after a while 1-2 minutes the landing references under the aircraft will be visible and then you can continue your decent to a normal landing."
You really don't have much experience do you? This "technique" would get you run out of the heli*ski business in about two landings.
You really don't have much experience do you? This "technique" would get you run out of the heli*ski business in about two landings.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: KPHL
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lama,
I've used IHL's technique and I've used other techniques in snow covered mountains. What IHL mentioned works extremely well in areas where you'd never take skiers.
I think we're seeing good reasons why flying in snow is best learned on a course rather than online. Like the rest of our job, there are many variations to what may at first seem simple.
I've used IHL's technique and I've used other techniques in snow covered mountains. What IHL mentioned works extremely well in areas where you'd never take skiers.
I think we're seeing good reasons why flying in snow is best learned on a course rather than online. Like the rest of our job, there are many variations to what may at first seem simple.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lama Bear :
Thanks for the attack and Happy New Year.
The original post had nothing to do with heli-skiing.
I stressed in my post that you need to have HOGE performance.
You don't have HOGE performance if your dropping off skiers at 10,ooo feet.
As for experience, I may not have as much experience as a lot of the other posters; I have 7,000. + on helicopters and in Canada we do get on average, 6 Months with snow.
Go and try your no-hover technique into a poorly lit heli-pad at night and let me know how it works out.
Thanks for the attack and Happy New Year.
The original post had nothing to do with heli-skiing.
I stressed in my post that you need to have HOGE performance.
You don't have HOGE performance if your dropping off skiers at 10,ooo feet.
As for experience, I may not have as much experience as a lot of the other posters; I have 7,000. + on helicopters and in Canada we do get on average, 6 Months with snow.
Go and try your no-hover technique into a poorly lit heli-pad at night and let me know how it works out.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have always found that a co-pilots nav bag or rucksack, thrown out onto the snow surface during a low speed pass, makes an excellent hover reference for the final approach.
If the landing subsequently proves too difficult then hey.....it wasn't your bag anyway.
If the landing subsequently proves too difficult then hey.....it wasn't your bag anyway.
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LIke almost anything we do in Helis Care and Attention are what is needed to have a good flight in snow covered conditions.
Like many other PPL(H) pilots I have ony a little experience in t/o and landing in snow, nobody prebriefed me, it was purely an extention of experience and involved much care and safety, I have flown once in actual falling snow conditions, because a Wx front beat me to my LZ that wont happen again, it was not nice.
But what a difference to the landscape snow makes, as other have said it takes some time to reajust your recognition of familier sites, but photos come out just brill
when in snow go very slow, even putting your skids on the ground starts to make you think much harder.
Vfr
Peter R-B
Like many other PPL(H) pilots I have ony a little experience in t/o and landing in snow, nobody prebriefed me, it was purely an extention of experience and involved much care and safety, I have flown once in actual falling snow conditions, because a Wx front beat me to my LZ that wont happen again, it was not nice.
But what a difference to the landscape snow makes, as other have said it takes some time to reajust your recognition of familier sites, but photos come out just brill
when in snow go very slow, even putting your skids on the ground starts to make you think much harder.
Vfr
Peter R-B