Flying in snow
Join Date: Aug 2001
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John,
haven't had any calls regarding bits falling off, but always see lots of snow coming off in the mirrors and flying along side other helo's.
But have had plently of experience with passengers stomping their feet on the floor trying to remove snow from their shoes, usally just after takeoff - puts the ****s up me everytime!!.
Any experince along these lines??
BigJim
haven't had any calls regarding bits falling off, but always see lots of snow coming off in the mirrors and flying along side other helo's.
But have had plently of experience with passengers stomping their feet on the floor trying to remove snow from their shoes, usally just after takeoff - puts the ****s up me everytime!!.
Any experince along these lines??
BigJim
Talking ballast/pax shouldn't be allowed 
After the first season of shifting skiers, we had to insert sheets of heavy gauge alloy on the floor, to protect the (crushed) honeycomb where ski boots had done their thing. That was through a thick rubber floor covering! Sheets of stainless steel around the door pillars & cabin sides for more protection, and a vigilant ground crew to 'discourage' knocking snow off against the door sill as they get in.
The rubber floor mat stops any noise from boots being knocked on the floor, but they certainly enjoy the ride, and a good heater soon warms things up once we're airborne.
Only a couple of weeks left to the end of our ski season, and NSW has had about 5 bushfires already, so no doubt we'll swing into that fairly soon.
Look out for a super large flag tow over the VFL Grand Final in two weeks, >40,000 sq ft
After the first season of shifting skiers, we had to insert sheets of heavy gauge alloy on the floor, to protect the (crushed) honeycomb where ski boots had done their thing. That was through a thick rubber floor covering! Sheets of stainless steel around the door pillars & cabin sides for more protection, and a vigilant ground crew to 'discourage' knocking snow off against the door sill as they get in.The rubber floor mat stops any noise from boots being knocked on the floor, but they certainly enjoy the ride, and a good heater soon warms things up once we're airborne.
Only a couple of weeks left to the end of our ski season, and NSW has had about 5 bushfires already, so no doubt we'll swing into that fairly soon.
Look out for a super large flag tow over the VFL Grand Final in two weeks, >40,000 sq ft
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John,
limit your pax to snowboarders only with soft boots!! (and make sure the good looking ones are always in the front), sure to solve nasty plastic boot marks
. We use plywood floor liners which are good, but I'm sure a moulded polythene liner made by Tufdeck would look much nicer 
BigJim
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: BigJim ]
limit your pax to snowboarders only with soft boots!! (and make sure the good looking ones are always in the front), sure to solve nasty plastic boot marks
. We use plywood floor liners which are good, but I'm sure a moulded polythene liner made by Tufdeck would look much nicer BigJim
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: BigJim ]
US NTSB urges Helicopter IF ratings for pilots in Snowy Climes
I saw this press release in a trade paper....
PRESS RELEASE
Date 08 October 2002
NTSB urges FAA to require helicopter Instrument Rating in snowy climes
The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) today urged the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to require “all helicopter pilots who conduct commercial, passenger-carrying flights in areas where flat light or whiteout conditions routinely occur to possess a helicopter-specific instrument rating and to demonstrate their instrument competency during initial and recurrent . . . check flights.” NTSB Recommendation A-02-33. In addition, NTSB wants FAA to require operators in these areas “to include safe practices for operating in flat light or whiteout conditions in their approved training programs,” and mandate “installation of radar altimeters in all helicopters conducting commercial, passenger-carrying operations in areas where flat light or whiteout conditions routinely occur.” NTSB Recommendations A-02-34 and A-02-35. The full text of these NTSB recommendations is available via Internet at http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2002/A02_33_35.pdf.
How many commerical operators will actively support these reccomendations and promptly equip the aircraft with the instruments and train and test their pilots to this standard? Care to hazard a guess......mine is "Zero...zip...nada....nil...."
PRESS RELEASE
Date 08 October 2002
NTSB urges FAA to require helicopter Instrument Rating in snowy climes
The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) today urged the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to require “all helicopter pilots who conduct commercial, passenger-carrying flights in areas where flat light or whiteout conditions routinely occur to possess a helicopter-specific instrument rating and to demonstrate their instrument competency during initial and recurrent . . . check flights.” NTSB Recommendation A-02-33. In addition, NTSB wants FAA to require operators in these areas “to include safe practices for operating in flat light or whiteout conditions in their approved training programs,” and mandate “installation of radar altimeters in all helicopters conducting commercial, passenger-carrying operations in areas where flat light or whiteout conditions routinely occur.” NTSB Recommendations A-02-34 and A-02-35. The full text of these NTSB recommendations is available via Internet at http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2002/A02_33_35.pdf.
How many commerical operators will actively support these reccomendations and promptly equip the aircraft with the instruments and train and test their pilots to this standard? Care to hazard a guess......mine is "Zero...zip...nada....nil...."
Join Date: Sep 2002
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SASless,
I guess you're right. For commercial operators the only 3 things which matter, in order of priority are, profit, profit, profit. Which is rather sad as I seem to remember from some previous posts of yours that you once worked in Nigeria for a large operator of whom you seemed to be rather fond I seem to remember that one of their pilots from there went to fly a Bell 206 for the British Antarctic Survey and crashed in the snow. Of course that was said to have been due to a faulty heater causing carbon monoxide poisoning, but.....
I guess you're right. For commercial operators the only 3 things which matter, in order of priority are, profit, profit, profit. Which is rather sad as I seem to remember from some previous posts of yours that you once worked in Nigeria for a large operator of whom you seemed to be rather fond
I seem to remember that one of their pilots from there went to fly a Bell 206 for the British Antarctic Survey and crashed in the snow. Of course that was said to have been due to a faulty heater causing carbon monoxide poisoning, but.....
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Looking at the past history of the FAA in responding to NTSB recommendations, I believe the chances of the FAA accepting these is very close to zero. As regards the motives of operators, I think you're a little broad there, MamboBaas. The motive is not just profit, but short-range profit. Few look at next year, much less next quarter. They take the money & run now, & next year will take care of itself, if they're still in business. 
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Low Vis Training
I believe that in Canada low vis ops are a required part of recurrent training. Admittedly, it's only a few questions on a written test, usually administered in the spring. Maybe an IFR requirement wouldn't be a bad thing...
In Helicopters Mag issue #2/2001 (Canadian publication: www.helicoptersmagazine.com) there's an excellent article on low vis training. It's a good read for this (or any) time of year.
Can we be trusted to know and respect legal vis limits, or do we need to have more legislation? Since the CPL is already a legal, skills-and-knowledge certification, adding IFR for snowy conditions isn't a conceptual quantum leap. But it still wouldn't mitigate the issue of customer pressure to complete the mission. None of my LZs have an instrument approach, so an IFR rating and radar alt would help me avoid CFIT, but won't help me reach my destination.
The real point of such legislation must be to ensure that we can turn around after inadvertent flight into IMC. Fair enough. Keeping the skills sharp during a season of (primarily) VMC is another question. As is getting every friggin helicopter in Canada outfitted with a radar alt! Bet there'll be some operator resistance the that one!!
In Helicopters Mag issue #2/2001 (Canadian publication: www.helicoptersmagazine.com) there's an excellent article on low vis training. It's a good read for this (or any) time of year.
Can we be trusted to know and respect legal vis limits, or do we need to have more legislation? Since the CPL is already a legal, skills-and-knowledge certification, adding IFR for snowy conditions isn't a conceptual quantum leap. But it still wouldn't mitigate the issue of customer pressure to complete the mission. None of my LZs have an instrument approach, so an IFR rating and radar alt would help me avoid CFIT, but won't help me reach my destination.
The real point of such legislation must be to ensure that we can turn around after inadvertent flight into IMC. Fair enough. Keeping the skills sharp during a season of (primarily) VMC is another question. As is getting every friggin helicopter in Canada outfitted with a radar alt! Bet there'll be some operator resistance the that one!!
Last edited by Dick Mitten; 13th Oct 2002 at 13:30.
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Yawn!
The problem still remains that very few pilots know what whiteout is. No it is not as everyone suspects flight in falling or blowing snow. For those who have never experienced it imagine flying along in the dark and flying into an unlit object that you obviously couldn't see. The same can happen in whiteout - it is so white or bright that your eye cannot differentiate. The worst situation is a flat overcast making flat light conditions.
All the instruments in the world will not help and are not a solution - a DC 10 in Antarctica proved this once. In flight visibility was in excess of 150 miles. White cloud base, white snow, white mountain no shadows - whoop whoop WTF...........
The problem will remain that unless you are aware of the phenomena you will not recognise it - simple.
You would have to ask why no less than 3 AS350's ended up lying on their sides in one day in Alaska - all from the same company. Instruments and instrument ratings is far from the answer.
All the instruments in the world will not help and are not a solution - a DC 10 in Antarctica proved this once. In flight visibility was in excess of 150 miles. White cloud base, white snow, white mountain no shadows - whoop whoop WTF...........
The problem will remain that unless you are aware of the phenomena you will not recognise it - simple.
You would have to ask why no less than 3 AS350's ended up lying on their sides in one day in Alaska - all from the same company. Instruments and instrument ratings is far from the answer.
Bicker.....Hi Ya, Buddy! I suppose that was the way Ops wanted them parked. Famous quote I heard up there was " I don't give a damn what the weather is....tell the SOB to get that aircraft to Fairbanks or he can find another job!" ......and the fourteen year veteran Alaska pilot did just that....told them to stuff their job up their bunghole and got another job the same day. If you are referring to the "large" company with the 121 fixed wing side... they had the highest accident rate in Alaska (helicopter side) for several years running. You are talking about the same company that also did the same thing with two 212's or a 212 and 412 just outside Deadhorse/Pruhoe Bay one year too? Red/Black/White machines.
John Bicker wasn't referring to Era, he was talking about Temsco. September 10, 1999 was a day Temsco would rather forget.
One of their Astars with six people aboard crashed in low-viz/flat light conditions up on a glacier in Alaska. A search was initiated and subsequently another Astar with two persons aboard crashed. A third Astar found them, picked them up and continued to search for the first downed Astar, but alas, even it crashed! All were relatively gentle crashes that tore the ships up but didn't hurt anyone very seriously (with the exception of one person on the original ship).
The Base Manager was out searching in a fourth Astar. One can only imagine his anxiety upon hearing that a total of three of his ships were down (with one hapless crew being involved in two accidents in the same day!).
It is noted that only one of the three pilots had an Instrument Rating. The NTSB must be using this as a "cookie-cutter" cause, but their reasoning is specious because none of the three pilots reported any problems controlling their respective aircraft prior to smooshing into the snow. They all hit fairly level and under control, hence the "C" in CFIT. We can therefore conclude that the Instrument Rating by itself would not have prevented any of these accidents.
But a radar altimeter might have! The pilots reported that they thought they were higher than they actually were (kind of a "duh!" eh?). Had the information from a RadAlt been available, they might have known otherwise.
Having an Instrument Rating does you absolutely no good if:
1) you don't know where you are relative to higher terrain; and
2) you have no way of knowing how high you are with respect to the terrain immediately under you.
One of their Astars with six people aboard crashed in low-viz/flat light conditions up on a glacier in Alaska. A search was initiated and subsequently another Astar with two persons aboard crashed. A third Astar found them, picked them up and continued to search for the first downed Astar, but alas, even it crashed! All were relatively gentle crashes that tore the ships up but didn't hurt anyone very seriously (with the exception of one person on the original ship).
The Base Manager was out searching in a fourth Astar. One can only imagine his anxiety upon hearing that a total of three of his ships were down (with one hapless crew being involved in two accidents in the same day!).
It is noted that only one of the three pilots had an Instrument Rating. The NTSB must be using this as a "cookie-cutter" cause, but their reasoning is specious because none of the three pilots reported any problems controlling their respective aircraft prior to smooshing into the snow. They all hit fairly level and under control, hence the "C" in CFIT. We can therefore conclude that the Instrument Rating by itself would not have prevented any of these accidents.
But a radar altimeter might have! The pilots reported that they thought they were higher than they actually were (kind of a "duh!" eh?). Had the information from a RadAlt been available, they might have known otherwise.
Having an Instrument Rating does you absolutely no good if:
1) you don't know where you are relative to higher terrain; and
2) you have no way of knowing how high you are with respect to the terrain immediately under you.
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Guess it was Temsco. Was there in July of '99 with a Cayman Islands registered MD 600 - don't ask!
Was intrigued by the FAR's or recommendations, that your survival equipment should include a mosquito/bug hat and at least a shotgun.
Figured out after flying around for a bit that the gun was there so that if you crashed you could shoot yourself before a bear ate you.
Beautiful place and would definitely return!
Was intrigued by the FAR's or recommendations, that your survival equipment should include a mosquito/bug hat and at least a shotgun.
Figured out after flying around for a bit that the gun was there so that if you crashed you could shoot yourself before a bear ate you.
Beautiful place and would definitely return!
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Rad alt didn't help that DC-10 in Antarctica. Nor will it help if you are flying towards steeply rising terrain. It would also help if you are actually watching it too. How safe would you feel riding shotgun while some guy flies at 200'agl while he watches the rad alt in poor viz ?? I think I would be asking him to please turn around !! Besides, didn't one of you say that one of the pilots already had an instrument rating ?? Did him a lot of good.
Dick our company ops-spec requires training once per year on low-viz ops. But it doesn't take long to do a couple of 360's in the a/c at 200' agl (or whatever height you feel comfortable at). Generally speaking when doing VFR recurrent training, we almost always have a little time to do company minimum airspeed, low-level flying. We pick a day with some wind, and in between autos, t/r failures, we go and do a couple of 360's at low level in the infield of the airfield. You have to do an hour's training anyways. Besides it's fun, and gets us ready for orbitting fires ad nauseum.
Cheers
Dick our company ops-spec requires training once per year on low-viz ops. But it doesn't take long to do a couple of 360's in the a/c at 200' agl (or whatever height you feel comfortable at). Generally speaking when doing VFR recurrent training, we almost always have a little time to do company minimum airspeed, low-level flying. We pick a day with some wind, and in between autos, t/r failures, we go and do a couple of 360's at low level in the infield of the airfield. You have to do an hour's training anyways. Besides it's fun, and gets us ready for orbitting fires ad nauseum.
Cheers
Randy....would not practicing 180's be more beneficial.....really....doing a 360 to get out of trouble seems .....well....kind of ethnic somehow!
Plus.....I would like to know just how many hundreds if not thousands of hours I have at 200 feet in bad vis.....heck...I would like to know how many hours I have at 50 feet in bad vis......tree tops give a great altitude reference from below....and amazingly enough....most tree trunks point up....there by giving one an attitude reference. In our cowboy days it was not unheard of to ask the cabin attendent to slide the cabin door back and look down to warn us of the sea.
Plus.....I would like to know just how many hundreds if not thousands of hours I have at 200 feet in bad vis.....heck...I would like to know how many hours I have at 50 feet in bad vis......tree tops give a great altitude reference from below....and amazingly enough....most tree trunks point up....there by giving one an attitude reference. In our cowboy days it was not unheard of to ask the cabin attendent to slide the cabin door back and look down to warn us of the sea.
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Don't get confused here. The trap in the DC10 and I think the Alaskan incidents was "sector whiteout". In the DC10 incident the flight visibility was in excess of 150 miles. The FMS was programmed so that they were'nt where they thought they were which is really incidental. The whole crew thought they were in the clear and could see the coastline and several other features clearly. They were well below the cloudbase. The white cloudbase, white mountain covered in white snow was undetectable to the capabilities of the human eye. During all the investigations the same course was flown in a US military 212 from Mc Murdo about a year (I think) later to the day. The same conditions existed and said mountain was not visible. The conditions of sector whiteout are never apparent and you have no reason to even think about using instruments unless you know the symptoms that cause it. The conditions were VMC and the aircraft were not in any sort of precipitation.
Unless you have experienced it yourself it is difficult to appreciate or describe to someone else how deceptive it is.
Unless you have experienced it yourself it is difficult to appreciate or describe to someone else how deceptive it is.
To fully understand the NTSB recommendations, it might be worth reading the relevant accident reports.
Temsco #1
Temsco #2
Temsco #3
Coastal
Temsco committed to the NTSB that they would;
When you are carrying paying tourists in new aircraft the cost of a rad-alt is peanuts to the cost of the entire aircraft (especially if you install a $5,000 stereo system ).
Any other costs incurred in operating safely will be peanuts in relation to your insurance premium after a disaster of this nature.
Whether it becomes mandated will be interesting to see, and quite how you define "snowy-climes" might also pose a challenge, as seasonally that covers a lot of territory!
A couple of other lessons from this might include notifying the appropriate authorities that you have a (number of) machine(s) missing, rather than have the local media calling the FAA for information about 3 A-stars crashing on the glacier (say, what)!!!!!
Some time later, a TV crew appeared to film a show about this incident. In the segment however, only two helicopters crashed on the ice because they did not think the TV viewing public would believe that 3 could crash successively!
As regards flat-light conditions, anyone who has been ski-ing has probably run into this exact condition - totally featureless terrain and the inability to determine any physical definition. CFIT in these conditions is not limited to helicopters and mountains, but also fixed wing aircraft in relatively good visibility and flat ground but a featureless landscape, sky and horizon.
Intentional IFR flight in the area these accidents occurred in would be guarantee the demise of anyone unfortunate enough to try it. I've met a couple of fixed-wing guys who inadvertently tried it (exhibiting severe shock) and also pulled quite a few wrecks out where they weren't so lucky!
John, you will be pleased to hear that Alaska has removed the requirement to carry a gun at all times in the State, as it is impossible to take it through Canada! It is however a pretty good idea if you are going to do much travelling to buy one there - if you ever faced up to a bear in the woods, you would wish you had it. As regards mosquito nets and bug-dope - never, ever, consider going anywhere in the North without them in your survival gear, as they WILL kill you!
Temsco #1
Temsco #2
Temsco #3
Coastal
Temsco committed to the NTSB that they would;
According to the operator's director of operations, and the Juneau base manager, the following operational and training changes have been incorporated.
(1) Competency checks of company pilot's ability to navigation solely by reference of instruments. These checks will be incorporated into the annual 135.293/.299 pilot check rides.
(2) Installation of radar altimeters in helicopters providing tours over snow-covered glacial terrain. All new helicopters will have factory installed radar altimeters, and existing helicopters will be retrofitted within one year.
(3) Relocation of the factory installed ELT from the right baggage compartment to the passenger cabin area, and relocate the ELT antenna from the tail boom area to the nose of the helicopter. In addition, portable antennas will be provided in the event the airframe mounted antenna or antenna wiring is damaged.
(4) Incorporate "flat light" conditions training into the annual pilot training.
(5) Provide hand-held, FM radios for each helicopter, in the event that the helicopter's radios are rendered inoperative.
(1) Competency checks of company pilot's ability to navigation solely by reference of instruments. These checks will be incorporated into the annual 135.293/.299 pilot check rides.
(2) Installation of radar altimeters in helicopters providing tours over snow-covered glacial terrain. All new helicopters will have factory installed radar altimeters, and existing helicopters will be retrofitted within one year.
(3) Relocation of the factory installed ELT from the right baggage compartment to the passenger cabin area, and relocate the ELT antenna from the tail boom area to the nose of the helicopter. In addition, portable antennas will be provided in the event the airframe mounted antenna or antenna wiring is damaged.
(4) Incorporate "flat light" conditions training into the annual pilot training.
(5) Provide hand-held, FM radios for each helicopter, in the event that the helicopter's radios are rendered inoperative.
).Any other costs incurred in operating safely will be peanuts in relation to your insurance premium after a disaster of this nature.
Whether it becomes mandated will be interesting to see, and quite how you define "snowy-climes" might also pose a challenge, as seasonally that covers a lot of territory!
A couple of other lessons from this might include notifying the appropriate authorities that you have a (number of) machine(s) missing, rather than have the local media calling the FAA for information about 3 A-stars crashing on the glacier (say, what)
!!!!! Some time later, a TV crew appeared to film a show about this incident. In the segment however, only two helicopters crashed on the ice because they did not think the TV viewing public would believe that 3 could crash successively!
As regards flat-light conditions, anyone who has been ski-ing has probably run into this exact condition - totally featureless terrain and the inability to determine any physical definition. CFIT in these conditions is not limited to helicopters and mountains, but also fixed wing aircraft in relatively good visibility and flat ground but a featureless landscape, sky and horizon.
Intentional IFR flight in the area these accidents occurred in would be guarantee the demise of anyone unfortunate enough to try it. I've met a couple of fixed-wing guys who inadvertently tried it (exhibiting severe shock) and also pulled quite a few wrecks out where they weren't so lucky!
John, you will be pleased to hear that Alaska has removed the requirement to carry a gun at all times in the State, as it is impossible to take it through Canada! It is however a pretty good idea if you are going to do much travelling to buy one there - if you ever faced up to a bear in the woods, you would wish you had it. As regards mosquito nets and bug-dope - never, ever, consider going anywhere in the North without them in your survival gear, as they WILL kill you!
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Flying in snow
While its not exactly the time of year for it I was just curious for input from some of the seasoned snow flyers about the profiles they use when operating in snow.
1. Runway takeoff... I would assume pulling in all the power from flat pitch and transitioning away as quickly as possible avoiding the hover.
2. Landing.... A shallow approach with touchdown, again avoiding the hover... what about on un prepared LZ s for example in the mountains...?
Any input would greatly appreciated especially from those who have flown in the snow on wheels.
Thanks ...Decks
1. Runway takeoff... I would assume pulling in all the power from flat pitch and transitioning away as quickly as possible avoiding the hover.
2. Landing.... A shallow approach with touchdown, again avoiding the hover... what about on un prepared LZ s for example in the mountains...?
Any input would greatly appreciated especially from those who have flown in the snow on wheels.
Thanks ...Decks
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The guys who have seemed to do well in training in these conditions are Canadian Helicopters. www.canadianhelicopters.com
Other than comments here, you may want to get an email through and see if one of their instructors can give you some tips.
As for me I uses my snow card. Its blue and I hold it up to the sky. If the colors don't match, its time for coffee.
Other than comments here, you may want to get an email through and see if one of their instructors can give you some tips.
As for me I uses my snow card. Its blue and I hold it up to the sky. If the colors don't match, its time for coffee.
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Snow Glorious Snow
Hey guys,
Whats the deal with the snow drama in the U.K?
MAN has had disruptions, LGW was like an ants nest gone wrong?
Is it right and proper that a country that has snow EVERY year has major disruptions due to ignorance??
I know that most line pilots in the UK have no experience in flying in snow and shiiiiit.'.............( I am waiting for the come back)
Only look at what the Canadiens and the Norwegians put in, and they manage ok, cos they know it's coming.
Are the UK Aviation and Road people ###ing stupid. Or are resources stretched past their limit due to ignorance.??
MD
Planks have a whole sort of de icing procedure going on, i would like to hear about the varoius experiences of de-icing in pprune. Rotors going or not?)
Whats the deal with the snow drama in the U.K?
MAN has had disruptions, LGW was like an ants nest gone wrong?
Is it right and proper that a country that has snow EVERY year has major disruptions due to ignorance??
I know that most line pilots in the UK have no experience in flying in snow and shiiiiit.'.............( I am waiting for the come back)
Only look at what the Canadiens and the Norwegians put in, and they manage ok, cos they know it's coming.
Are the UK Aviation and Road people ###ing stupid. Or are resources stretched past their limit due to ignorance.??
MD
Planks have a whole sort of de icing procedure going on, i would like to hear about the varoius experiences of de-icing in pprune. Rotors going or not?)
The hangar is the best solution for deicing. That and staying out of the fluffy stuff. 
Don't worry mate: the drivers in canada are just as bad. Which is strange because they grew up with it.
Don't worry mate: the drivers in canada are just as bad. Which is strange because they grew up with it.