Flying in snow
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 900
Likes: 26
From: The Wild West... and Oz
Snow you say? yep, got a bit at the moment and it dosnt look like we will be going too far.
Both techniques discribed are correct. It depends on the situation. I prefer the "zero zero" method, and this is the only way to go when at any sort of altitude. Then when lifting off, as well as moving forward, also a more positive climb angle to ensure you are not flying into something! Distances can be quite deceptive when flying in these conditions, especially at higher altitudes where there are no objects to give you scale. One thing to be carefull of, is when you start pulling collective, make sure you are not stuck to the snow/ice. A bit of a wiggle with pedals and cyclic should help.
There are lots more traps so be very carefull.
Off course, SASless has described the best method of all...
Fly safe.
Both techniques discribed are correct. It depends on the situation. I prefer the "zero zero" method, and this is the only way to go when at any sort of altitude. Then when lifting off, as well as moving forward, also a more positive climb angle to ensure you are not flying into something! Distances can be quite deceptive when flying in these conditions, especially at higher altitudes where there are no objects to give you scale. One thing to be carefull of, is when you start pulling collective, make sure you are not stuck to the snow/ice. A bit of a wiggle with pedals and cyclic should help.
There are lots more traps so be very carefull.
Off course, SASless has described the best method of all...
Fly safe.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
It is sure the most fun too!
Regards the flying bit....the key lies in two areas I think. One is the lack of adequate visual reference to include depth perception and not having enough support upon landing and sinking into the soft stuff.
If you fly in snow, at some point you will experience White Out...that can happen rapidly...without warning and can be quite fatal. Be it in the hover, on approach, takeoff or in cruise....visual reference is all important....and being prepared for the loss of it when it happens means being able to resort to my favorite method afterwards or not. Depth perception can be deceptive in Snow....running landings might be fun but the ground run is much shorter in soft snow than on hard packed stuff.
Parking places take on a new dimension....any slope to them at all? Be prepared to go sledding if so....usually at about 30% of the necessary Nr for flying usually as I recall! If you think the Jamaican Bob Sled team looked a hoot, try a downhill course in a half running helicopter!
Leave yer bird all alone over night....and come back in the morning to discover a window vent was left open a crack...and the blowing snow is now safely stored in the helicopter...slam to the roof...now that is the start of a good day!
Walk into the nice warm cabin....then after a few hours walk out to start up and leave....and discover the battery can almost turn the starter....that is fun too. Oil and fuel gets thicker with the cold and engines get really crook if you are warm and they are not.
Night flying and landing lights in snow can be a thrill too....seems odd the way the snow flakes seem to be moving in flight.
Logistics gets interesting in the snow too...ever tried to roll a drum of fuel in 3-4 feet of snow....or walk without snow shoes in that depth of snow. If your bird (both types) are wearing snow shoes...so should you probably.
There was an accident on a mountain near Seattle....aircraft did not have snow shoes (Bear Pads) on it....and when a skid broke through the crusty surface....on it's side it went. The pilot bore the blame...despite his management neglecting to ensure the aircraft was properly equipped.
If you are going snow flying....please do it first under Adult supervision. Seek out some old pot bellied, balding, bearded ancient geezer and quiz him for his survival tips on how to do it without recreating his mistakes of the past. His beer bill you pick up will be a lot cheaper than paying for the stuff you tear up in the process of getting to look like him one day.
One of the best laughs ever....in Alaska...-35F at Noon....been that way for weeks. A government inspector noted with disdain I did not have a water filter on my pump and suggested I had committed a heinous safety violation. The fact any water in the drums was froze solid in the bottom of the barrel seemed to escape him. Ever try to pump Jet Fuel by hand in those temps.....great sport!
Night flying over deep snow...with a clear sky and full Moon shining is probably the most memorable sights I have seen. It certainly cannot be called "Night Flying" in the true sense. Ice crystals twinkling from the Moon light, rivers, lakes, and ponds all shining...wonderful clear air...bright stars.....makes all the other flights pale in comparison.
Regards the flying bit....the key lies in two areas I think. One is the lack of adequate visual reference to include depth perception and not having enough support upon landing and sinking into the soft stuff.
If you fly in snow, at some point you will experience White Out...that can happen rapidly...without warning and can be quite fatal. Be it in the hover, on approach, takeoff or in cruise....visual reference is all important....and being prepared for the loss of it when it happens means being able to resort to my favorite method afterwards or not. Depth perception can be deceptive in Snow....running landings might be fun but the ground run is much shorter in soft snow than on hard packed stuff.
Parking places take on a new dimension....any slope to them at all? Be prepared to go sledding if so....usually at about 30% of the necessary Nr for flying usually as I recall! If you think the Jamaican Bob Sled team looked a hoot, try a downhill course in a half running helicopter!
Leave yer bird all alone over night....and come back in the morning to discover a window vent was left open a crack...and the blowing snow is now safely stored in the helicopter...slam to the roof...now that is the start of a good day!
Walk into the nice warm cabin....then after a few hours walk out to start up and leave....and discover the battery can almost turn the starter....that is fun too. Oil and fuel gets thicker with the cold and engines get really crook if you are warm and they are not.
Night flying and landing lights in snow can be a thrill too....seems odd the way the snow flakes seem to be moving in flight.
Logistics gets interesting in the snow too...ever tried to roll a drum of fuel in 3-4 feet of snow....or walk without snow shoes in that depth of snow. If your bird (both types) are wearing snow shoes...so should you probably.
There was an accident on a mountain near Seattle....aircraft did not have snow shoes (Bear Pads) on it....and when a skid broke through the crusty surface....on it's side it went. The pilot bore the blame...despite his management neglecting to ensure the aircraft was properly equipped.
If you are going snow flying....please do it first under Adult supervision. Seek out some old pot bellied, balding, bearded ancient geezer and quiz him for his survival tips on how to do it without recreating his mistakes of the past. His beer bill you pick up will be a lot cheaper than paying for the stuff you tear up in the process of getting to look like him one day.
One of the best laughs ever....in Alaska...-35F at Noon....been that way for weeks. A government inspector noted with disdain I did not have a water filter on my pump and suggested I had committed a heinous safety violation. The fact any water in the drums was froze solid in the bottom of the barrel seemed to escape him. Ever try to pump Jet Fuel by hand in those temps.....great sport!
Night flying over deep snow...with a clear sky and full Moon shining is probably the most memorable sights I have seen. It certainly cannot be called "Night Flying" in the true sense. Ice crystals twinkling from the Moon light, rivers, lakes, and ponds all shining...wonderful clear air...bright stars.....makes all the other flights pale in comparison.
Last edited by SASless; 28th December 2005 at 15:41.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Rum drinks on sandy beaches in the Caribbean this time of year reduce the tariff for my services....put me up in a nice beach front hotel...and we can video conference by computer and save you a lot of money. Plus the beach bunnies costumes are more pleasing to look at as compared to clunky ski boots and parka's.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
From: USA - Mexico
SaSless said....
"If you are going snow flying....please do it first under Adult supervision. Seek out some old pot bellied, balding, bearded ancient geezer and quiz him for his survival tips on how to do it without recreating his mistakes of the past. His beer bill you pick up will be a lot cheaper than paying for the stuff you tear up in the process of getting to look like him one day."
When did we meet? You sure know what I look like.
After 17 seasons of heliski and 8 of winter seismic Mexico is so lovely this time of year. This forumn is a close to deep snow/winter ops as I want get.
"If you are going snow flying....please do it first under Adult supervision. Seek out some old pot bellied, balding, bearded ancient geezer and quiz him for his survival tips on how to do it without recreating his mistakes of the past. His beer bill you pick up will be a lot cheaper than paying for the stuff you tear up in the process of getting to look like him one day."
When did we meet? You sure know what I look like.
After 17 seasons of heliski and 8 of winter seismic Mexico is so lovely this time of year. This forumn is a close to deep snow/winter ops as I want get.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
LB,
You flying a nice newly redone Huey by chance...lifting powerline stuff?
If you look around....most of us old farts look like that....it is the brass ear trumpet we carry that really gives us away as being helicopter pilots.
Me dear old Mum thinks I play piano in a brothel.....if the truth gets out it will break the old dear's heart!
You flying a nice newly redone Huey by chance...lifting powerline stuff?
If you look around....most of us old farts look like that....it is the brass ear trumpet we carry that really gives us away as being helicopter pilots.
Me dear old Mum thinks I play piano in a brothel.....if the truth gets out it will break the old dear's heart!
Video: Austrian EC-135 slope start in snow
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
From: Here, There and Everywhere!!
I liked seeing the 'Give it some oooommmppphhhh' idea to get it clear of the snow but what ever happend to one of the rules of slope landings 'Never Turn Your Tail Towards The Slope!'???
R22
R22
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Lucky guy having a fenestron instead of normal tail rotor.
@R22DRIVER That is exactly what he did or do you turn your tail towards the slope ??
Towards the slope means uphill !!
Happy landings
Spencer17
@R22DRIVER That is exactly what he did or do you turn your tail towards the slope ??
Towards the slope means uphill !!
Happy landings
Spencer17
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Originally Posted by hotzenplotz
I think the interesting question is how the machine got into this situation.
Nice to see the pilot handeld that situation.
Nice to see the pilot handeld that situation.
Fortunately the pilot handled very well this situation !
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
It seems to be quite a common problem with this operator. A few years ago there was a still image of a similar scenario with the Austrian EMS EC135 at even steeper angle tail first down the embankment of a road. Not sure how that was recovered.
At the time the image was strictly not for publication - too embarassing I guess - just one to secretly whistle over.
Now times have moved on and there is less twitchiness about any suggestion of c of g 'problems' associated with that giant bit of structure around the fenestron.
It does make you wonder if c o g issues are a hidden reason for both Agusta and Bell not taking up with the fan-in-tail after the trials they undertook. The public version is that they did not want to used the design because it was associated with EC ..... it never worried them that Sikorky used a conventional t/r.
At the time the image was strictly not for publication - too embarassing I guess - just one to secretly whistle over.
Now times have moved on and there is less twitchiness about any suggestion of c of g 'problems' associated with that giant bit of structure around the fenestron.
It does make you wonder if c o g issues are a hidden reason for both Agusta and Bell not taking up with the fan-in-tail after the trials they undertook. The public version is that they did not want to used the design because it was associated with EC ..... it never worried them that Sikorky used a conventional t/r.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,670
Likes: 1
From: UK
There is most definitely NO C of G aft issue with the EC135. God knows we sometimes wish it was aft!!!!!
I agree with the aforementioned though. The Fan should have been cleared of all nearby snow before "unsticking".
Shame there was no crash though
[Just joking...].
I agree with the aforementioned though. The Fan should have been cleared of all nearby snow before "unsticking".
Shame there was no crash though
[Just joking...].